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Fear based religions

dan

Well-Known Member
(Q) said:
And what makes a dictionary the decider of absolute truth?

If your posts are any indication, one could easily assume you don't use a dictionary. So, just to let you know, it is a book of definitions meant to allow us mere humans to effectively communicate. Open one sometime, you might be pleasantly surprised. :D

Is it unheard of that someone may be smarter than a dictionary?

That is too funny. How is one smarter than a book - especially one of reference?

A dictionary is made by mere humans, y'know.

By humans - for humans. What's the problem with that?

1- I only open them when I am confused about something, but opening one right now will not solve the enigma that is your obstinance.

2- Because books are made by humans, and as you have proven quite conclusively, humans make mistakes all the time.

3- See above.
 

(Q)

Active Member
I understand the Gospel in its fullness and there is no other way for the Gospel to function.

You may think you do, but it is merely your *humble* interpretation and is only relevant to you. And since it is your interpretation based on your worldview, it means little or nothing to anyone else.

Sorry pal, but you do not convince in the least and you contradict yourself.
 

(Q)

Active Member
Because books are made by humans, and as you have proven quite conclusively, humans make mistakes all the time.

That is what is known as a logical fallacy - Strawman argument.
 

dan

Well-Known Member
(Q) said:
I understand the Gospel in its fullness and there is no other way for the Gospel to function.

You may think you do, but it is merely your *humble* interpretation and is only relevant to you. And since it is your interpretation based on your worldview, it means little or nothing to anyone else.

Sorry pal, but you do not convince in the least and you contradict yourself.

Prove me wrong.
 

(Q)

Active Member
Prove me wrong.

Another logical fallacy - Shifting the burden of proof. You've got a lot to learn.
 

dan

Well-Known Member
(Q) said:
Because books are made by humans, and as you have proven quite conclusively, humans make mistakes all the time.

That is what is known as a logical fallacy - Strawman argument.

A strawman argument is when one attacks a position that is easy to refute rather than the real, complex position of an opponent.

A fallacy is a mistkae in reasoning.

OK, where is my strawman, and where is the mistake in my reasoning?
 

dan

Well-Known Member
(Q) said:
Prove me wrong.

Another logical fallacy - Shifting the burden of proof. You've got a lot to learn.

Then put me to the test. You're the one refuting my claim with only your opinion.
 

dan

Well-Known Member
Ah, now you've given a good example of a strawman argument. You've also given a perfect example argumentum ad hominem. You must be very proud of yourself. Care to go for the hat trick and show me a red herring?
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
dan said:
Now, put your dictionary away, because it says nothing of what the translators of the Bible thought while they were translating the text. The words they translated dread and fear were incorrect.
Dan, you may well be right. Permit me to note, however, the following translations offered for Deuteronomy 6:13
  • NLT - You must fear the LORD your God
  • NKJV - You shall fear the Lord your God
  • NASB - You shall fear {only} the LORD your God
  • RSV - You shall fear the LORD your God
  • Webster - Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God
  • Young - Jehovah thy God thou dost fear
  • Darby - Thou shalt fear Jehovah thy God
  • ASV - Thou shalt fear Jehovah thy God
  • HNV - You shall fear the LORD your God
  • JPS - Thou shalt fear HaShem thy G-d;
  • THE TARGUM OF ONKELOS - Thou shalt fear the Lord thy God
  • Targum Pseudo-Jonathan - fear the Lord your God
These translations are typically the result of serious scholarly consensus. You reject their translation. Fine. Can you suggest why we should give credance to your claim and presume that these dozens of semitic language scholars should be deemed in error? Perhaps you could refer us to some peer-reviewed work presenting the evidence that might warrant overturning such a consensus.
 

dan

Well-Known Member
At the moment I have only my word (I don't have the correct resources on hand, I'm not at my home), but I will find some corroborative evidence. Allow me to present a transliterated version of that verse.

Et-Yehweh Eloheikh siyawray;

My literal translation: To the Lord your God thou shalt show reverence.

I think I will provide some translations of my own to show the fallibility of semitic language scholars. Momentito.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
dan said:
At the moment I have only my word (I don't have the correct resources on hand, I'm not at my home), but I will find some corroborative evidence.
That is perfectly understandable. I'll be happy to wait until you have access to corroborative evidence.

dan said:
Allow me to present a transliterated version of that verse.

Et-Yehweh Eloheikh siyawray;

My literal translation: To the Lord your God thou shalt show reverence.
The question is not, and has never been, one of determining what you want such phrases to mean. At issue is whether or not such dogma-driven ad hoc translations have any value. Your corroborating evidence may help us to decide.

dan said:
I think I will provide some translations of my own to show the fallibility of semitic language scholars.
Providing transations of your own will demonstrate no such thing. The world is full of pathetic self-appointed experts convinced that they have some unique access to the truth. Let's wait for your evidence which, hopefully, will include references to your contributions to the appropriate peer-reviewed journals.
 

dan

Well-Known Member
Matthew 10:4 has the Aramaic word "kanan" in it. This word is easily mistaken for Canaanite, when it should actually be translated Zealote. How many translations do you think make that mistake? It was pointed out a long, long time ago, too. They go as follows:

MSG
AMP
KJV (of course)
NLV
ESV
NKJV
KJ21
ASV
YLT
DARBY
WYC

That's eleven.

OK, how 'bout another one? Let's look at I Kings 20:30. 27,000 people were killed by a wall in Aphek? Professor Moshe Kochavi from Tel Aviv University's Institute of Archeology has uncovered this town and its walls. It was a thirty acre city at its largest, and never had a wall large enough to kill anywhere close to 27,000 people. It should be twenty-seven people. This error is attributed to the mistranslation of the Hebrew word for "professional soldier" -alluph-, often mistaken for the word "thousand" -eleph-. The discrepancies are justifiable, as there were no vowels in ancient Hebrew, so the two words were identical -'lp- and -'lp-. The transcribers of these texts had to literally guess, and they liked the idea of multiplying Israel's victories, numbers, and enemies. I've gone over this before, but this reconciles what we know about Israeli history with the huge numbers in the Bible. David's census is clear, the losses in Gibeah make sense, and a hundred other instances of numerical errors are fixed. The problem is, no one wants to change the Bible. They're afraid of what the world will say. They afraid someone will burn their bodies and staple Revelations 22:18 to their smoking corpses. Every single translation in existence makes these numerical errors. Few will change "fear" to "reverence" out of pure and simple fear of the vicious bloodlust of scorned religionists. It seems from the reaction of this forum that the bloodlust of the atheists might be kindled even hotter.

Want another one? Genesis 29:31 says Leah was "hated." The word is "sawnay," a Hebrew word that does not denote hatred, but is more accurately translated "love less." Leah wasn't hated, she was just loved less than Rachel. What do the translations say? Of the eighteen versions I checked, only two had this denotation correct. The Contemporary English Version and the New International Readers Version (go figure). The other sixteen translatations used "hated," "despised" or "unloved" despite the fact that the correction was available to them.

The scholars rely less on the Gospel and more on their own intelligence when they translate the Bible. Proverbs says it is good to have intelligence if it is used correctly; but the smarter you are the harder it is to use your intelligence with Godly love.
 

dan

Well-Known Member
Some Bible called "the Message" and the Amplified Bible, as well as the New International Reader's Version seem to agree with me on the translation of Deut. 6:13. I've compared a lot of these translations and find the NIRV to be incredibly comprehensive. The New American Standard Bible also offers reverence as an alternative translation. What I see here is a tendancy for many of these translations to put traditional translations in in an effort to maintain the almost esoteric language that so many find irritating (I don't). My resources are moderately limited right now, so this is a weak argument, but the Bibles that seem to want to make the language a little more clear to the layperson translate this word "reverence," which leads me to believe the other translations feel that connection is one the reader should be intelligent enough to make on his own. Why they feel it necessary to leave such a word in, I don't know. I'm gonna get back to you when I'm better prepared to offer up the necessary resources. I gotta get to class now anyway. Que pasen bien.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
dan said:
OK, how 'bout another one? ...
Want another one? ...
This is a bit like listening to an unruly and insecure child. [color]"Look at me. Look at Me. Look at ME!" [/color] No doubt you are very impressed with yourself, but it means very, very little. You promised corroboration, and I expect no less.

dan said:
OK, how 'bout another one? ...
Want another one? ...
The scholars rely less on ...
I suggest that you do not have a clue what "scholars rely less on". I am more than willing to be proven wrong. Simply submit your credentials.
 

dan

Well-Known Member
OK, I could find one piece of literature here that can help. According to the International Religious Foundation's Comparative Anthology of Sacred Texts, "The fear of God sometimes means to serve God out of fear of punishment, as in the texts from the Upanishad on the fearsomeness of Shiva and from the African traditional ritual of Ofo. But usually the fear of God is a more exalted emotion, an awe and respect for the Ultimate Reality who has graciously provided for our lives. Fear includes the notions of duty and loyalty to God, who is worthy of all service because of His continual blessings and help."

From the Adi Granth of Sikhism:

How may it be called fear?
No other resting place is except Thee;
All that happens is Thy will.
One might be afraid of it if anything other
than God held any fear-
To be shaken with such fears is sheer
perturbation of mind.

From Judaism's Mishnah:

He in whom the fear of sin comes before wisdom, his wisdom will endure;
but he in whom wisdom comes before the fear of sin, his wisdom will not endure.

From Islam's Qur'an:

Whosoever submits his will to God, while doing good, his wage is with the Lord, and no fear shall be upon them, neither shall they sorrow.

Be it also known that the word revere comes from an interesting background. The Latin "revereri" is the combining of "re"- and "vereri," which means to "stand in awe of, fear." It is the root from which we get the word revere. So, the word fear also means to revere. Pehaps you were correct, and the words should be fear. Perhaps we just have to expand our understanding of the word fear. Provocative.
 

dan

Well-Known Member
I submit that you may be correct in the validity of the word fear, but wrong in the interpretation of that word. Have you any evidence of the denotation of terror in these verses? Perhaps this word requires further study before either of us render a verdict.
 

dan

Well-Known Member
Once again, when the resources are available I will provide them, but for the remainder of this day they shall not be, so I'll be winging it. Forgive me please.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
dan said:
OK, I could find one piece of literature here that can help.
How fortuitous.

dan said:
According to the International Religious Foundation's Comparative Anthology of Sacred Texts, ...
From the Adi Granth of Sikhism: ...
From Judaism's Mishnah: ...
From Islam's Qur'an: ...
Dan, forgive me but you're babbling. Give me references to peer-reviewed scholarship (although you would do well to re-evaluate your Mishna quote).

Upon what evidence should I embrace your translation when it is opposed by a significant array of JudeoChristian scholars? Why should I not dismiss you as just one more self-deluded fringe fundamentalist?
 
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