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Gurdjief and the Forth Way
- Thread starter Valor
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Gurdjieff and P.D. Ouspensky are two of my favorite philosophers. I would also recommend "The Gurdjieff Work" by Kathleen Riordan Speeth and Ouspensky's "The Psychology of Man's Possible Evolution". Both are excellent works, these two guys were deffinetely on to something.
I find it interesting that Gurdjieff used the 9 angled Enneagram which would seem to symbolize 9 States of the Awakened Being.
I find it interesting that Gurdjieff used the 9 angled Enneagram which would seem to symbolize 9 States of the Awakened Being.
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Valor
Active Member
P.D Ouspensky has a great series of books, one stands out alone in my opinion. It's titled "the psychology of mans possible evolution.
The psychology Ouspensky sets forth in these introductory lectures has existed in one form or another for thousands of years and, unlike modern psychology, studies man from the point of view of what he may become.
Once a man relizes how little control he has over his reactions to external circumstances and internal stimuli, he may wish to find a way to become free of this mechanicle way of living.
Ouspensky describes how a man must work simutaneosly on his knowledge and his being to find inner unity and why although his development depends on his own efforts, this is very difficult to achieve without guidance from a "school."
The present edition of this book includes a lecture, not previously published, in which he gives some details of the "school of the forth way", with which he was connected, and an account of some of its fundamental principles, methods and rules.
Here and Enjoy! [URL]http://www.fourthway.org/[/URL]
Yes, good observation Adremelek. I posted this thread above days earlier.
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Thanks Valor. I think it's one of Ouspensky's definitive publications. It would be stimulating to discuss any specific issues Gurdjieff or Ouspensky impressed on you. I sort of wanna get involved with a local Fourth Way group. I'm still sleeping on it.
Also thumbs up on Colin Wilson being mentioned. He can definitely get his own thread as his work is quite fascinating in it's own right.
Also thumbs up on Colin Wilson being mentioned. He can definitely get his own thread as his work is quite fascinating in it's own right.
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Valor
Active Member
I would love to...what did you have in mind?
I may be able to help you with this
... Where do you live.
Valor
Active Member
Thank you. I have a Biography or two on both of them, but never heard of this title. Is it a sceptics article?
The book is called In Search of P.D. Ouspensky: The Genius in the Shadow of Gurdjieff . It's not skeptical, in the sense of being the work of a garden-variety skeptic. For instance, Lachman had some personal involvement in the Fourth Way when he lived in New York City, and he has also written an extremely interesting book entitled A Secret History of Consciousness.
Rather, the Ouspensky book is skeptical, in that Lachman looks critically at Gurdjieff in relation to Ouspensky. Lachman suggests that Ouspensky's own ideas, and his personal and intellectual development, suffered because of his relationship with Gurdjieff. I don't take any rigid sides in the debate, myself, but Lachman's perspective and argument are thought provoking, if nothing else.
I am glad to see discussion of the Fourth Way in an LHP forum, by the way, as I have long felt that the Fourth Way, mutatis mutandis, could be useful to those who are interested in the LHP and the Sinister.
Rather, the Ouspensky book is skeptical, in that Lachman looks critically at Gurdjieff in relation to Ouspensky. Lachman suggests that Ouspensky's own ideas, and his personal and intellectual development, suffered because of his relationship with Gurdjieff. I don't take any rigid sides in the debate, myself, but Lachman's perspective and argument are thought provoking, if nothing else.
I am glad to see discussion of the Fourth Way in an LHP forum, by the way, as I have long felt that the Fourth Way, mutatis mutandis, could be useful to those who are interested in the LHP and the Sinister.
Valor
Active Member
Thank you...i aim to please..lol. Yes, i felt a strong pull to the benifits of the Forth Way coorisponding in accordance to LHP practice and philosophy. There is a binding, a sistering of the two that, in my Initiation, has proven effective and potent.
Tell us Nospam... What path/system do you identify with? What resonates with you?
P.s. There is no longer a School of the forth way in NY, only in Arcata and san fran, CA.
Here are some ideas for the 9 States of Consciousness inspired by Ouspensky and the 9 angled Enneagram:
1st Angle= Instinctual Consciousness
2nd Angle= Emotional Consciousness
3rd Angle= Intellectual Consciousness
4th Angle= Consciousness of the "I" (relative consciousness)
5th Angle= Self-Consciousness
6the Angle= Objective Consciousness
7the Angle= Consciousness of the permanent "I" and Free Will.
8th Angle= Cosmic Consciousness
9th Angle= Absolute Consciousness = the Self made Perfect and Complete. (This would be a divine State of immortal Being, purely metaphysical, transcending the requirement for a physical body.)
Xeper em Ma'at.
/Adramelek\
1st Angle= Instinctual Consciousness
2nd Angle= Emotional Consciousness
3rd Angle= Intellectual Consciousness
4th Angle= Consciousness of the "I" (relative consciousness)
5th Angle= Self-Consciousness
6the Angle= Objective Consciousness
7the Angle= Consciousness of the permanent "I" and Free Will.
8th Angle= Cosmic Consciousness
9th Angle= Absolute Consciousness = the Self made Perfect and Complete. (This would be a divine State of immortal Being, purely metaphysical, transcending the requirement for a physical body.)
Xeper em Ma'at.
/Adramelek\
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Perris Hilton
Member
For those interested in a synthesis of the Forth Way and LHP:
Venger Satanas founded a version of the Cult of Cthulhu which synthesizes the Forth Way with Lovecraftian Mythos, and LHP. He has self-published a few books which contains his teachings. He also has several websites. Last time I heard, his CoC [cult of cthulhu] Forum had about 900 members, so the idea of a Forth Way-LHP combo sold pretty well. You can find his newly fixed up site at: cultofcthulhuDOTnet/ or you can go to youtube and search his name. He has a few videos I've never read any of his books; and my own interest and knowledge in the Forth Way is severely limited. He's a cool guy. He's one of few people and few institutions that are trying to actively evolve "satanism" into something more relevant and useful to today's world and zeitgeist.
Venger Satanas founded a version of the Cult of Cthulhu which synthesizes the Forth Way with Lovecraftian Mythos, and LHP. He has self-published a few books which contains his teachings. He also has several websites. Last time I heard, his CoC [cult of cthulhu] Forum had about 900 members, so the idea of a Forth Way-LHP combo sold pretty well. You can find his newly fixed up site at: cultofcthulhuDOTnet/ or you can go to youtube and search his name. He has a few videos
I've never read any of his books; and my own interest and knowledge in the Forth Way is severely limited. He's a cool guy. He's one of few people and few institutions that are trying to actively evolve "satanism" into something more relevant and useful to today's world and zeitgeist.
These two States can be a little confusing. According to Ouspensky the 4th State (relative consciousness), or as Ouspensky calls it "man no. 4" is one for whom the idea of acquiring Self-Consciousness, the permanent "I", and Free Will - that is, the idea of his self-directed self-development has become of paramount importance in his Life.
"Man no. 5 is a man who has acquired Self-Consciousness. He is different from ordinary man, because in him, one of the higher centers already works, and he has functions and powers that an ordinary man - that is, man 1,2, and 3 - does not possess." P.D. Ouspensky - The Psychology of Man's Possible Evolution, Second Lecture
Those of us who truly walk the Path of the Left and who are honestly Working towards self-directed self-development i.e. Xeper, have attained the Fourth and Fifth States of Being (and beyond).
Xeper em Ma'at.
/Adramelek\
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Valor:
Describing my personal path would take this thread too far afield, but thanks for asking. It is a work in progress, in any case.
(As for the Fourth Way and New York, Lachman was involved in that a long time ago, in the '70's or '80's, I think.)
I will say that two facets that the Fourth Way and the LHP have in common are self-mastery and a certain amorality, although I am sure that many Fourth Way adherents would object to that last point.
Describing my personal path would take this thread too far afield, but thanks for asking. It is a work in progress, in any case.
(As for the Fourth Way and New York, Lachman was involved in that a long time ago, in the '70's or '80's, I think.)
I will say that two facets that the Fourth Way and the LHP have in common are self-mastery and a certain amorality, although I am sure that many Fourth Way adherents would object to that last point.
I think both are correct and valid points.
Valor
Active Member
I didn't intend to pry for an autobiography, just your initial path and todays... no thesis please. See, it's helpful for many reasons, just to name a few... If i come accross something which doesn't interest me, but i would posted it anyway only for the sole purpose to interest you. (Not unlike a silent side kick, if you will)..this in turn harbors a true possibility to aid me/us because when/if you reply to it...i'll learn from your opinions. But, not only that...you above all others could ascertain and aquire knowledge too. You have the opertunity to aid everyone here... however, being so reclusive concerning your Path is, in a way, unethical. Please take no offence.
Everything is a work in progress.
Some Ouspensky inspired definitions:
The first three states of consciousness are basically on the same level:
First state - instinctive consciousness= one in whom the moving or instinctive centers predominate over the intellectual and emotional, that is, Physical man.
Second state - emotional consciousness= one in whom the emotional center predominates over the intellectual, moving, and instinctive. Emotional man.
Third state - intellectual consciousness= one in whom the intellectual center predominates over the emotional, moving, and instictive. Intellectual man.
We are all born either no. 1, no. 2, or no 3. One can only reach higher states of being through self-directed self-development i.e. Xeper.
The Fourth state - relative consciousness. This state is the product of Initiation and Xeper. Man no. 4 differs from man no. 1, no. 2, and no. 3 by his knowledge of him Self, by his understanding of his position, and, as it is expressed technically, by having acquired a permanent center of gravity. The idea of acquiring the permanent "I", and Will - that is, the idea of his self-directed Evolution has already become for him of paramount importance.
Also, according to Ouspensky man no. 4, his functions and centers are more balanced, in a way in which they could not be balanced without Work on his Self.
The Fifth state - self-consciousness= one who is different from ordinary man, because in him, one of the higher centers already works, and he has many functions and powers that an ordinary man - that is, man no. 1, 2, and 3 does not possess.
The Sixth state - objective consciousness= one in whom another higher center works. He possesses many more new faculties and powers, beyond the understanding of an ordinary man.
The Seventh state or man no. 7 is a man who has attained all that a man can attain within the limits of known existence. "He has a permanent "I" and Free Will. He can control all the states of consciousness in himself and he already cannot lose anything he has acquired. According to another description, he is immortal within the limits of time and space."
I cannot define states 8 and 9 for in order to truly Understand them one would have to attain them. I would think that the ability to attain them is possible, but they are States of Higher Consciousness which transcend time and space and the totality of known existence.
Xeper em Ma'at.
/Adramelek\
The first three states of consciousness are basically on the same level:
First state - instinctive consciousness= one in whom the moving or instinctive centers predominate over the intellectual and emotional, that is, Physical man.
Second state - emotional consciousness= one in whom the emotional center predominates over the intellectual, moving, and instinctive. Emotional man.
Third state - intellectual consciousness= one in whom the intellectual center predominates over the emotional, moving, and instictive. Intellectual man.
We are all born either no. 1, no. 2, or no 3. One can only reach higher states of being through self-directed self-development i.e. Xeper.
The Fourth state - relative consciousness. This state is the product of Initiation and Xeper. Man no. 4 differs from man no. 1, no. 2, and no. 3 by his knowledge of him Self, by his understanding of his position, and, as it is expressed technically, by having acquired a permanent center of gravity. The idea of acquiring the permanent "I", and Will - that is, the idea of his self-directed Evolution has already become for him of paramount importance.
Also, according to Ouspensky man no. 4, his functions and centers are more balanced, in a way in which they could not be balanced without Work on his Self.
The Fifth state - self-consciousness= one who is different from ordinary man, because in him, one of the higher centers already works, and he has many functions and powers that an ordinary man - that is, man no. 1, 2, and 3 does not possess.
The Sixth state - objective consciousness= one in whom another higher center works. He possesses many more new faculties and powers, beyond the understanding of an ordinary man.
The Seventh state or man no. 7 is a man who has attained all that a man can attain within the limits of known existence. "He has a permanent "I" and Free Will. He can control all the states of consciousness in himself and he already cannot lose anything he has acquired. According to another description, he is immortal within the limits of time and space."
I cannot define states 8 and 9 for in order to truly Understand them one would have to attain them. I would think that the ability to attain them is possible, but they are States of Higher Consciousness which transcend time and space and the totality of known existence.
Xeper em Ma'at.
/Adramelek\
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Valor
Active Member
Great post! Thank you.
Mr. Cage
Member
Im a card carrying member myself, been affiliated with the school for almost a decade. I encourage that those here who are attuned and ready to take the next step to join. Contact me for affiliation info or if you need a sponsor.
Readers may wish to think twice before approaching Robert E Burton's group "The Fellowship Of Friends". There are rumours that it is a cult: Fellowship of Friends