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Is socialism defunct?

Falvlun

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
With the revelation of the crippling amount of debt present in many European countries that have embraced socialism, does this hurt the liberal cause to introduce more forms of socialism (like healthcare) into the U.S?

I ask because it is common to point to the success of our European counterparts in areas like health care, as well as the general happiness of the population (attributed to more vacation/shorter work weeks/baby leave/etc and less worry over retirement, etc), as strong evidence as to why the U.S. should adopt these practices. If Denmark can do it-- and see how happy they are-- then we can do it too!

But these countries do have a severe debt problem that can likely be traced in large part to these socialistic programs. How does this-- or should this-- effect the liberal push for more socialism in the U.S.?
 
Rainbow Mage

Rainbow Mage

Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
What many don't know about the European countries is they don't practice pure Socialism either. They mix it with Capitalism just like America is trying to do. In my view, it's all or nothing. Capitalism will never do a country any good, no matter how much of it a country holds onto.
 
Falvlun

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
Dang. "Is socialism bankrupt?" would have been a much better title.

Senedjem said:
What many don't know about the European countries is they don't practice pure Socialism either. They mix it with Capitalism just like America is trying to do. In my view, it's all or nothing. Capitalism will never do a country any good, no matter how much of it a country holds onto.
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I personally think a healthy mix of both is the best way to go. Capitalism needs to be regulated to curb its tendency to forget about the people involved, but I just don't think socialism is that good at making or managing money (or goods, if you prefer).
 
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Baydwin

Baydwin

Well-Known Member
Falvlun said:
With the revelation of the crippling amount of debt present in many European countries that have embraced socialism, does this hurt the liberal cause to introduce more forms of socialism (like healthcare) into the U.S?

I ask because it is common to point to the success of our European counterparts in areas like health care, as well as the general happiness of the population (attributed to more vacation/shorter work weeks/baby leave/etc and less worry over retirement, etc), as strong evidence as to why the U.S. should adopt these practices. If Denmark can do it-- and see how happy they are-- then we can do it too!

But these countries do have a severe debt problem that can likely be traced in large part to these socialistic programs. How does this-- or should this-- effect the liberal push for more socialism in the U.S.?
Click to expand...
Thing is, the massive debt you're talking about (and I assume you have Greece in mind) was caused by the recent banking crisis, which has it's route in capitalism in its most desperately greedy form. Nothing to do with socialism.
 
Mathematician

Mathematician

Reason, and reason again
The problem with most country's budgetary policies is that they run deficits in times of prosperity when the process should be constrained to recessionary cycles. When capital and employment are closely maximized, issuing bonds has the potential to crowd out the private sector. This is marginally acceptable when you're providing a service the private sector either can't or "shouldn't" supply (defense, infrastructure, or arguably health care), but when it creates more redundancies like pork barrel projects you run into problems. Fiscal expansionary policies are corrective measures, not preventative.

Social democracy can be both a safeguard from and the culprit to economic stagnation. You can still have a mixed system without strangling future taxpayers, but it must be done with caution. I think foremost we need to move most economic decisions back into the realm of the states and drastically decrease defense spending. States can then individually learn from each other about what system delivers the best service instead of having a monolithic entity going one way or another.

Small, temporary deficits.
 
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Darkness

Darkness

Psychoanalyst/Marxist
Falvlun said:
With the revelation of the crippling amount of debt present in many European countries that have embraced socialism, does this hurt the liberal cause to introduce more forms of socialism (like healthcare) into the U.S?
Click to expand...

The world-wide economic recession should have, once and for all, destroyed people's belief in laissez-faire capitalism. However, still so many people in the United States belief that is was because of government that we are in this quagmire.

Falvlun said:
I ask because it is common to point to the success of our European counterparts in areas like health care, as well as the general happiness of the population (attributed to more vacation/shorter work weeks/baby leave/etc and less worry over retirement, etc), as strong evidence as to why the U.S. should adopt these practices. If Denmark can do it-- and see how happy they are-- then we can do it too!
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Firstly, the health insurance reform plan signed into law by President Obama will, by all estimations, reduce the deficit, so not only does it give an estimated 32 million people health coverage, but it also saves the Federal Government money. Secondly, conservatives/libertarians are quick to point at all the social programs that led to deficits. It is true that the governments of Europe were running deficits before the collapse. However, there is no direct link between their running deficits and the economic recession. Having outstanding debt when the crisis hits, makes the country less able to fight the recession, but it did not cause it.

Falvlun said:
But these countries do have a severe debt problem that can likely be traced in large part to these socialistic programs. How does this-- or should this-- effect the liberal push for more socialism in the U.S.?
Click to expand...

It simply tells us that we need to pay for our programs and not run large deficits during the good years.
 
Magic Man

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
It was the aspects of capitalism that put us in the recession we're in. Socialism isn't the problem. As long as you're taking in enough money in taxes to cover the social programs you have, there's no problem.
 
Falvlun

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
mball1297 said:
It was the aspects of capitalism that put us in the recession we're in. Socialism isn't the problem. As long as you're taking in enough money in taxes to cover the social programs you have, there's no problem.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe it was the recession that caused the huge amount of debt; the only thing the recession did was make the debt more unweildy. It brought it out into the light of day, and it is ugly.

Thus, I'm not talking about socialism causing the recession, or even that the recession itself has killed socialism. I'm talking about socialism seeming to cause too much debt.

The fact is, governments are not taking in enough money to cover these programs. Would these people be as happy as they are made out to be if the government was in fact paying for all these services through taxpayer money rather than loans? Is it even possible for these countries to take in enough money to support these programs?

Look at the U.S.: Basically half of our governmental spending goes towards medicare and social security alone. And that's just the bare minimum.
 
Magic Man

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
Falvlun said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe it was the recession that caused the huge amount of debt; the only thing the recession did was make the debt more unweildy. It brought it out into the light of day, and it is ugly.

Thus, I'm not talking about socialism causing the recession, or even that the recession itself has killed socialism. I'm talking about socialism seeming to cause too much debt.
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The U.S. has had a lot of debt for a long time.

The fact is, governments are not taking in enough money to cover these programs. Would these people be as happy as they are made out to be if the government was in fact paying for all these services through taxpayer money rather than loans? Is it even possible for these countries to take in enough money to support these programs?

Look at the U.S.: Basically half of our governmental spending goes towards medicare and social security alone. And that's just the bare minimum.
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I think you should probably do a lot more research. I don't know all the details. I don't know the debt situations in other countries. I find it hard to believe, though, that these programs are causing that much of a problem.
 
Falvlun

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
mball1297 said:
The U.S. has had a lot of debt for a long time.
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The U.S. debt is a different animal. I would think that is largely the result of military spending-- something the U.S. does far and beyond these other European countries. If these other countries aren't spending it on the military-- like the U.S.-- then where is their debt coming from?

mball said:
I think you should probably do a lot more research. I don't know all the details. I don't know the debt situations in other countries. I find it hard to believe, though, that these programs are causing that much of a problem.
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The fact that Greece is putting in these "austerity measures" to control their debt problem spoke volumes. They are cutting back on their social programs because that's where the spending was out of control.
 
Revoltingest

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Falvlun said:
With the revelation of the crippling amount of debt present in many European countries that have embraced socialism, does this hurt the liberal cause to introduce more forms of socialism (like healthcare) into the U.S?

I ask because it is common to point to the success of our European counterparts in areas like health care, as well as the general happiness of the population (attributed to more vacation/shorter work weeks/baby leave/etc and less worry over retirement, etc), as strong evidence as to why the U.S. should adopt these practices. If Denmark can do it-- and see how happy they are-- then we can do it too!

But these countries do have a severe debt problem that can likely be traced in large part to these socialistic programs. How does this-- or should this-- effect the liberal push for more socialism in the U.S.?
Click to expand...

Socialism is no more defunct now than before the crisis. It is like capitalism, in that it is neither right nor wrong, but rather it exists because it is desired by some.
Of course, you can expect me to cast aspersions against socialism, but that's because I disagree with its premises, eg, big government, wealth redistribution.
Watch & see....socialist countries like France will cope by raising the retirement age, cutting benefits, & perhaps raising taxes. As much as I'd love to chortle at
the prospect of socialism's demise, like religion, it's here to stay.
 
Darkness

Darkness

Psychoanalyst/Marxist
Revoltingest said:
Socialism is no more defunct now than before the crisis. It is like capitalism, in that it is neither right nor wrong, but rather it exists because it is desired by some.
Of course, you can expect me to cast aspersions against socialism, but that's because I disagree with its premises, eg, big government, wealth redistribution.
Watch & see....socialist countries like France will cope by raising the retirement age, cutting benefits, & perhaps raising taxes. As much as I'd love to chortle at
the prospect of socialism's demise, like religion, it's here to stay.
Click to expand...

I make that same point to my Libertarian friend, Parker, all the time. It all has to do with what we value. I am more of a communitarian than a individualist (when it comes to economic issues, anyway). I am concerned with the lives of people living in squalor in Africa and see redirecting a decent amount of our resources to help, a utilitarian good. That is, I value the actual well-being of people, over the freedom to be the master of your own money and be charitable where you see fit.
 
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Rainbow Mage

Rainbow Mage

Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
mball1297 said:
It was the aspects of capitalism that put us in the recession we're in. Socialism isn't the problem. As long as you're taking in enough money in taxes to cover the social programs you have, there's no problem.
Click to expand...

Capitalism will always put a country in the hole, it allows corporations to do whatever they want under the banner of free enterprise. That's exactly what caused the depression as well, and when the depression was upon them they jumped out windows and stuff.
 
Shadow Wolf

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
With the revelation of the crippling amount of debt present in many European countries that have embraced socialism, does this hurt the liberal cause to introduce more forms of socialism (like healthcare) into the U.S?
Click to expand...
Sorry, I have to laugh at this. America is much more Capitalist than they are, and we too have a massive debt. And Europeans are not entirely socialist, rather they have a healthy blend of Capitalism and Socialism. And much of the worlds debt crisis is because of the Capitalist American bankers who bent the world over and raped it without lube.
And the policies you mention, such as mandatory vacation time, maternity leave, shorter work weeks, etc., are because it's well known that a work force that is happy and rested is more productive. An overworked, tired, and unhappy work force is not as productive, and too much work will literally kill the workforce.
 
Sunstone

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
In general, US citizens are no more rational about socialism than creationists are rational about evolution. But why should they be? They have endured 100 years of massive anti-reality propaganda telling them all sorts of lies about socialism. Consequently, most US citizens today can't think straight when it comes to that topic.
 
Rainbow Mage

Rainbow Mage

Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
Exactly sunstone, just like the media has lied about Communism. The government works hard to demonize anything it feels is un-American, and to keep the two major parties in power
 
Revoltingest

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Sunstone said:
In general, US citizens are no more rational about socialism than creationists are rational about evolution. But why should they be? They have endured 100 years of massive anti-reality propaganda telling them all sorts of lies about socialism.
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The word "lies" is a little over the top. A lot of misinformation is just the result of people mistakenly believing that
their agenda-laden opinion is "fact". Capitalism suffers just about as much mistreatment as socialism in the media.
 
Sunstone

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Revoltingest said:
The word "lies" is a little over the top. A lot of misinformation is just the result of people mistakenly believing that
their agenda-laden opinion is "fact". Capitalism suffers just about as much mistreatment as socialism in the media.
Click to expand...

Are you actually naive enough to believe that socialism has not been lied about?
 
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