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Would you die for your faith?

Natas

Active Member
I realize this is totally off topic from the original question of this thread, and I leave it up to the moderator to determine whether or not to move it to a different thread on this subject I have since started.



johnnys4life said:
If it's okay to kill someone in self defense, it's okay to kidnap to defend an innocent. So yes.

Your defense of kidnapping by comparing it to an act of self-defense, is fascinating.

"Any parent who kidnaps a child must ask himself or herself if love and protection of the child is the true motive. If so, then go to your local court and seek protection. If you take any other action, your motive is suspect." Legal Handbook On Kidnapping


johnnys4life said:
Neither my faith, nor the Jewish faith are based solely on the 10 commandments. Though that is a common misconception.
Your post gave two pronouncements and stated they were the, "First and second greatest commandments". In the written text of the
ten commandments, I ask you again, where do you see these two "Greatest" commandments? If these are just personal proclamations, please say so.

johnnys4life said:
There were righteous people in the Bible who lied at times to save someone's life, and God did not condemn them for it.
Care to provide a source for this statement?
The Bible seems pretty clear in it's contempt of liars.

"Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar." Proverbs 30:6
"A sword is upon the liars; and they shall dote: a sword is upon her mighty men; and they shall be dismayed." Jeremiah 50:36

johnnys4life said:
Wrong. Having been in and out of the court system as a child, I know that it does. I don't think you quite know my background. I have been involved in a legal case with my friend concerning the custody of her daughter. Her daughter was being abused by the father and yet he obtained custody after taking them to court numerous times. I've seen how the judge treated her just because her daughter's dad is a millionaire and she isn't. I've seen that for myself. I've also seen how someone who can afford to go to court 20 times and use thier lawyer to find anything and everything they can to attack another person legally, can make life hell for someone who is just scraping by.
While you're faithfullness to your friend is admirable, and your concern for her and her daughter is without question, don't fall into the trap of using an emotional response to solve the problem. The criminal justice system, right or wrong in your opinion, will certainly not endorse kidnapping for any reason.

johnnys4life said:
Not in all cases. To protect an innocent, yes.

And what would be the determining factors in deciding who was an, "Innocent"?


johnnys4life said:
Kidnapping is not a sin. It's the raping, torturing and murdering associated with it in many cases that's sin. This kind of kidnapping is done out of love, for protection. Yes I think that overrides the law of the lands. I think you should try to do it without lying, if possible. Most of the time God makes things like that possible. I'm not advocating lying unless there is no other way to protect an innocent. When the law fails to protect an innocent, that's when the court system is of no use to me.
So as you see it, it's a personal decision that one should use as a basis for kidnapping and justifying it with God?

"We may deceive ourselves into thinking that God will accept us into His heaven because we are less sinful than others, but God views any sin as worthy of the death penalty. Thus, regardless of how society stratifies the sins we commit, God hates all sin and must, in His holiness, punish them. Some seem to find comfort in the fact that Jesus refused to condemn men in His first coming, even refusing to take part in the execution of the woman caught in the very act of adultery (John 8). This is because His first coming was not to condemn men, but to save them: “For God did not send the son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God” (John 3:17-18).
 

johnnys4life

Pro-life Mommy
I can't begin to name all the numerous times those 2 commands were given in the New AND Old Testaments. Jesus himself said it here:

28One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"
29"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.[a] 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'[b] 31The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c]There is no commandment greater than these." Mark 12:28-31
 

johnnys4life

Pro-life Mommy
Genesis 12
10 Now there was a famine in the land, and Abram went down to Egypt to live there for a while because the famine was severe. 11 As he was about to enter Egypt, he said to his wife Sarai, "I know what a beautiful woman you are. 12 When the Egyptians see you, they will say, 'This is his wife.' Then they will kill me but will let you live. 13 Say you are my sister, so that I will be treated well for your sake and my life will be spared because of you


14 When Abram came to Egypt, the Egyptians saw that she was a very beautiful woman. 15 And when Pharaoh's officials saw her, they praised her to Pharaoh, and she was taken into his palace. 16 He treated Abram well for her sake, and Abram acquired sheep and cattle, male and female donkeys, menservants and maidservants, and camels.
17 But the LORD inflicted serious diseases on Pharaoh and his household because of Abram's wife Sarai. 18 So Pharaoh summoned Abram. "What have you done to me?" he said. "Why didn't you tell me she was your wife? 19 Why did you say, 'She is my sister,' so that I took her to be my wife? Now then, here is your wife. Take her and go!" 20 Then Pharaoh gave orders about Abram to his men, and they sent him on his way, with his wife and everything he had.
 

johnnys4life

Pro-life Mommy
Now, it must be said that Abram and Sarai were later known as Abraham and Sarah. This is the same Abraham known as the father of our faith. Also, they WERE half brother and sister. So what she said was decietful, but not completely untrue.

And yet Sarai decieved the pharoah, and she did it out of love for her husband, to protect his life. This is the same Sarah referred to later in the New Testament:

1 Peter: 3
5For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful. They were submissive to their own husbands, 6like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her master. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear.


I don't like lying. I try very hard never to lie, it is a sin and not something I take lightly AT ALL. And as I said I'd pray that God would let the child get away without resorting to that. But what he is doing to her will scar her for the rest of her life, and is, and she's getting worse. If the child could run away on her own, she would, but this is self defense, not so much of the body (although that too) but of the soul. What he's done to her, it is almost worse than death. She isn't the same inside. I don't think I would really blame her if she killed him.

You must remember, laws made by man are not universal, they are not always the same in every place. What's illegal here may not be illegal after you're in a different country. As Christians we are to follow the laws of the land, but God's law above all.
 

CMIYC

Member
Then, I suppose you all support terrorism, since they all died out of love and not hate for their belief? Do you think there is a difference?
 

Quoth The Raven

Half Arsed Muse
CMIYC said:
Then, I suppose you all support terrorism, since they all died out of love and not hate for their belief? Do you think there is a difference?
Of course she does. Let's be frank here, it's not like there's a big stretch from saying that you would take your child and run to keep her from an abusive father who has the means to present a far better picture of himself to the family court than you can, to saying people should strap explosives to themselves and blow other people up in shopping malls or busses. In fact, those two things are so similar as to be virtually indistinguishable from each other.:banghead3
Where do people come up with these leaps of illogic?
 

Natas

Active Member
johnnys4life said:
I can't begin to name all the numerous times those 2 commands were given in the New AND Old Testaments. Jesus himself said it here:

28One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"
29"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.[a] 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'[b] 31The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c]There is no commandment greater than these." Mark 12:28-31
While these quotes don't answer my original question, "In the written text of the
ten commandments, I ask you again, where do you see these two "Greatest" commandments?", I won't quibble over the semantics.
 

DreamQuickBook

Active Member
CMIYC said:
Then, I suppose you all support terrorism, since they all died out of love and not hate for their belief? Do you think there is a difference?


Good point.

As for me, the only way I would die for my faith is if someone killed me because of my faith. There really is no concept of "sacrifice" in Satanism. Dying unnecessarily is stupid.
 

Natas

Active Member
johnnys4life said:
I don't like lying. I try very hard never to lie, it is a sin and not something I take lightly AT ALL.
Yet, in your first post you state, "In her place, I would take the child and run, even if that meant lying a lot for a long time, because sometimes it's not all black and white."

johnnys4life said:
And as I said I'd pray that God would let the child get away without resorting to that.
Did you not pray that God would grant custody to her in the first place instead of her abusive father? If you DID that, do you feel then that her husband won custody because he had more money then God, or that her husbands prayers were answered instead of yours?

johnnys4life said:
But what he is doing to her will scar her for the rest of her life, and is, and she's getting worse. If the child could run away on her own, she would, but this is self defense, not so much of the body (although that too) but of the soul. What he's done to her, it is almost worse than death. She isn't the same inside. I don't think I would really blame her if she killed him.
I do understand the personal dilemma you feel regarding your friend and her child, and I'm not trying to be insensitive, I'm only trying to understand the thought process you are using to base your conclusions. However, advocating lying, kidnapping, and now condoning a potential murder and trying to justify it with your religion is totally senseless to me.

As you yourself stated, Mark 12:31 says,"The second most important commandment is to Love your neighbor as yourself. There is no commandment greater than these." So in the name of the Christianity that you state as your chosen religion, shouldn't you "Love" him instead of saying,"I don't think I would really blame her if she killed him."

johnnys4life said:
You must remember, laws made by man are not universal, they are not always the same in every place. What's illegal here may not be illegal after you're in a different country. As Christians we are to follow the laws of the land, but God's law above all.
I'm pretty sure kidnapping and murder are universally condemmed, you can correct me if I'm wrong.
 

Fluffy

A fool
It seems that there are a lot of you that would sacrifice your own lives for your religion. Do you all believe there is a fine line between sacrificing your own life for your religion or sacrificing the life of someone else?
No because I have a right to do with my life whatever I wish including sacrificing it. I have no right to do the same to somebody else since they are entitled to the same right.

I would never sacrifice my life for any aspect of my faith unless there was a justified reason to do so. For example if my god and goddess asked (never told) me to and were able to convince me through some manner such as logic or appealing to my sympathies etc then I would do so happily.
 

DreamQuickBook

Active Member
Honestly, thank god I am Satanist (yummy irony). Satan would never, under any circumstance, ask me to give up my own life for some belief.
 

johnnys4life

Pro-life Mommy
Natas said:
Did you not pray that God would grant custody to her in the first place instead of her abusive father? If you DID that, do you feel then that her husband won custody because he had more money then God, or that her husbands prayers were answered instead of yours?

Of course. We've been praying for years. But, I do not believe it is "God's will" for us to sit back and do nothing while he torments this child. And you're not going to be able to convince me of that because I love that little girl.

I do understand the personal dilemma you feel regarding your friend and her child, and I'm not trying to be insensitive, I'm only trying to understand the thought process you are using to base your conclusions. However, advocating lying, kidnapping, and now condoning a potential murder and trying to justify it with your religion is totally senseless to me.

If she killed him it would be self defense not murder. Self defense is not murder in the Bible or the U.S. It is not even illegal.

As you yourself stated, Mark 12:31 says,"The second most important commandment is to Love your neighbor as yourself. There is no commandment greater than these." So in the name of the Christianity that you state as your chosen religion, shouldn't you "Love" him instead of saying,"I don't think I would really blame her if she killed him."

We try. We pray for him, and she even prays for him, but you know what, she turned 6 this year. I don't even want to think of what might happen to her now. No, I don't think I would blame her if she killed him, if he was coming at me I might kill him. As I've said before even regarding abortion, a person has a right to defend their own life. He may or may not have intent to kill her, but what he is doing is killing her.
 

CMIYC

Member
Patriotism is a belief in a way and stronger then faith, when it comes to dieing. Often patriotism is also blind, angry, spiteful and jealous. Sounds to me like a good cocktail for murder. Have our western countries ever murdered because we believe that oil is thicker then blood?
 

turk179

I smell something....
Seems like some of you have been close to touching on this, so I will state my question again.

turk179 said:
It seems that there are a lot of you that would sacrifice your own lives for your religion. Do you all believe there is a fine line between sacrificing your own life for your religion or sacrificing the life of someone else?
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Fluffy said:
No because I have a right to do with my life whatever I wish including sacrificing it. I have no right to do the same to somebody else since they are entitled to the same right.

I would never sacrifice my life for any aspect of my faith unless there was a justified reason to do so. For example if my god and goddess asked (never told) me to and were able to convince me through some manner such as logic or appealing to my sympathies etc then I would do so happily.
I would sacrifice mine, if I knew the sacrifice would mean benefit for others, but I would never dream of sacrificing anyone else - that's a definite 'NO'.:)
 

kreeden

Virus of the Mind
Originally Posted by turk179 : It seems that there are a lot of you that would sacrifice your own lives for your religion. Do you all believe there is a fine line between sacrificing your own life for your religion or sacrificing the life of someone else?

No . My life is more or less mine to do with as I wish . Another's life is their's . Except for life it's self , survival , I have no right to another's life . Human or animal . Other then they give , just as friendship and the like . So I don't see a fine line , I see many lines ....
 

johnnys4life

Pro-life Mommy
How is dying for your faith anywhere close to the same thing as killing for it? Who even thinks like that?

If someone put a gun to your head and asked you to denounce your faith or else, and you did it, either your faith isn't worth much or you are a coward.
 

Green Gaia

Veteran Member
I would die for my children... I can't think of much else I would die for... you can do so much more living.
 
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