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Why christians believe that jesus is God?

may

Well-Known Member
IacobPersul said:
But ahmedhelmy asked why Christians believe Christ is God, not why Arians don't.

James

Jehovah’s Witnesses cannot be accused of Arianism, inasmuch as they disagree with Arius’ views in many respects. For example, Arius denied that the Son could really know the Father. The Bible teaches that the Son ‘fully knows’ the Father and that the Son is "the one that has explained him." (Matthew 11:27; John 1:14, 18) Arius claimed that the Word became God’s Son "by adoption" because of his virtue or moral integrity. The Bible says that he was created by Jehovah as his "only-begotten son." (John 1:14; 3:16; Hebrews 1:2; Revelation 3:14) Arius taught that Christians could hope to become equal to Christ, whereas the Bible states that God gave him "the name that is above every other name." (Philippians 2:9-11) Far from being modern-day Arians, Jehovah’s Witnesses believe what the Bible says

 
Sounds like there is a lot of confusion. The Book of Mormon clears it all up. God and Jesus are 2 seperate beings, just like you and you father. They are one in purpose just like a sports team 11 players one purpose. Lets not confuse this simple doctrine anymore
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
John 1,

disregarding verse one's possible polytheistic translation, states that Jesus created all things, and specifically states that without Jesus, nothing. not one thing, was made. Genesis 1 specifies that God created the world, humans, animals, universe, everything. If you beleive both these texts to be true, than one can come to only one conclusion, that Jesus is God.

this is but one arguement.
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
may said:
Jehovah’s Witnesses cannot be accused of Arianism, inasmuch as they disagree with Arius’ views in many respects.
The main objection to Arianism was that they believed Christ was more than a human person but less than God.... same as the JW's.. you may disagree in a few points with Arius, but the main issue is still the same.
 

James the Persian

Dreptcredincios Crestin
may said:

Arius claimed that the Word became God’s Son "by adoption" because of his virtue or moral integrity. The Bible says that he was created by Jehovah as his "only-begotten son."
No, I'm afraid that you are confusing your heresies here. Arius did not say that Christ was an adopted son, he said he was a created, lesser god. I fail to see much difference, and certainly nothing of importance, between that belief and yours, that Christ was the Archangel Michael who, much like Arius's lesser god, is a created but supernatural being. You are, indeed, like it or not, holding to a version of neo-Arianism and it is therefore not incorrect to label your beliefs Arian. I can, however, refer to your Christological beliefs as neo-Arian if you prefer.

The heresy that you erroneously attributed to Arius is not Arianism at all, but Adoptionism. This heresy is of a similar age (actually, if anything, slightly older) and is most closely associated with Paul of Samosata. It has nothing whatsoever to do with Arius.

James
 
Peace be on you all.

Very strange, I can see strange debates between christians. Whether Jesus is God, son, humen. No one of you knows the conclusion. I am with you you will never reach to a conclusion unless you opened you mind. Very strange, Most of you are from highly developed countries, mine from a third world country. You believe that humen is a God. You believe that water can make a person christian. You believe that a cross or statue or picture can answer your request. You believe just confessing to a humen can do forgivness to you. You believe that god sacrifice himself for humens who he created. You believe that God can be a humen and can be killed. You believe the humen that sacrificed himslef gave forgiveness for all humens, whatever they do. You believe God can be a man because he is god and when killed there will be no god because god was dead. God created death, so how can he die.

I am the person from the third would believe in 1 god. I believe that each person is resposnible on what he do, and on one else are responsible except myself. This makes sense.

Very strange
 

James the Persian

Dreptcredincios Crestin
ahmedhelmy said:
Peace be on you all.

Very strange, I can see strange debates between christians. Whether Jesus is God, son, humen. No one of you knows the conclusion. I am with you you will never reach to a conclusion unless you opened you mind. Very strange, Most of you are from highly developed countries, mine from a third world country. You believe that humen is a God. You believe that water can make a person christian. You believe that a cross or statue or picture can answer your request. You believe just confessing to a humen can do forgivness to you. You believe that god sacrifice himself for humens who he created. You believe that God can be a humen and can be killed. You believe the humen that sacrificed himslef gave forgiveness for all humens, whatever they do. You believe God can be a man because he is god and when killed there will be no god because god was dead. God created death, so how can he die.

I am the person from the third would believe in 1 god. I believe that each person is resposnible on what he do, and on one else are responsible except myself. This makes sense.

Very strange
Ahmedhelmy,

Having read the Koran and previously had a Muslim girlfriend and having several Muslim friends, I have an idea (it my be poor, but I have one) of what Muslims believe but you apparently have no idea of Christian beliefs. Almost every single statement in your quoted post is incorrect. If you don't know, why not ask questions rather than make proclamations? Just a suggestion.

And as for you seeing arguments between Christians, I'm afraid that you are being mislead. What you are actually seeing is disagreement between Christians (one Roman Catholic and one Orthodox) and a Jehovah's Witness. Arianism (espoused by the JWs) is an ancient heresy condemned by the Church 1700 years ago. I only know of one Islamic sect widely regarded as heretical, the Ahmadiyya. I'm sure there are probably more, though. Would you consider my statement accurate if I saw a Sunni and a Shiite arguing with an Ahmadi and said, 'See, Muslims can't even agree amongst themselves?' If so, then you can continue thinking Scott, May and I are all followers of the same faith. If not, don't try to apply equally fallacious reasoning to my faith.

James
 
Dear Friend, diffrenece between sinna and shia came after death of Mohamed. There difference are in what happened after his death, who should be the leader after Mohamed, and other small minor things. There is no diffrence in Quran or even there is no difference in Mohamed's Teaching. What you have are different as difference are in Major concepts. This is undestandable as I said again christanity took long time to be widesoread and is being translated to many languages, so there is no single pleace to go to. We Muslims we have Only Quran
 

James the Persian

Dreptcredincios Crestin
ahmedhelmy said:
Dear Friend, diffrenece between sinna and shia came after death of Mohamed. There difference are in what happened after his death, who should be the leader after Mohamed, and other small minor things. There is no diffrence in Quran or even there is no difference in Mohamed's Teaching. What you have are different as difference are in Major concepts. This is undestandable as I said again christanity took long time to be widesoread and is being translated to many languages, so there is no single pleace to go to. We Muslims we have Only Quran
Sorry, but you misunderstood what I was saying. I was trying to say that the Shiites and Sunnis are both Muslims even though they are of different groups, but the Ahmadiyya are another group that is considered heretical by normal Muslims. They do not believe the same things that Sunnis and Shiites do.

This is the same sort of thing as you were seeing here. Scott is Roman Catholic. I am Orthodox. Our Churches have been divided over a number of issues for the last 1000 years but we still mostly believe the same things. Certainly we have the same Gospels and believe in the same core doctrines of Christianity such as the divinity of Christ. May, on the other hand, is part of a modern sect that has revived a version of an ancient heresy which specifically denies particular aspects of core Christian doctrine. So, in my analogy, Scott and I are comparable to the Shiite and Sunni Muslims while May's position would be more comparable to the Ahmadi. Do you understand what I am saying now? I was not talking about differences between Shiite and Sunni.

In case you are not aware of the Ahmadiyya, they believe their founder was the Mahdi and Jesus returned. Here's a link to the (short) wikipedia article on them. I'm sure you could find more if you wanted to.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmadiyya

James
 
There is nothing called Ahmedya or bahaiaa or anything of that sort related to Islam. Islam have Quran, Mohamed and Mohamed's teaching. Anything else are nonsense. If anyone told you the he is Ahmedie Muslim and He is following another prohpet, then he is out of Islam. I never heard about this religion.
 

James the Persian

Dreptcredincios Crestin
ahmedhelmy said:
There is nothing called Ahmedya or bahaiaa or anything of that sort related to Islam. Islam have Quran, Mohamed and Mohamed's teaching. Anything else are nonsense. If anyone told you the he is Ahmedie Muslim and He is following another prohpet, then he is out of Islam. I never heard about this religion.
Exactly. And the same can be said - and this is what I was saying - of the relationship between Christianity and the Jehovah's Witnesses. The JWs are a modern sect who have distorted Christian teachings and even produced their own 'translation' of the Gospels (a version that renders the Greek very inaccurately) to back up their own beliefs. Historically and doctrinally, they can be considered as being Christian only if you agree that doctrinally and historically the Ahmadiyya are Muslim. Obviously you do not.

James
 
I am sorry to tell not just a group or a couple can make a religion then we call them Muslims. Muslims are 1.2 Billion in the world. We are debating now in why being Jesus is God and nothing else
 

may

Well-Known Member
Jesus himself taught that he was the unique Son of God

do YOU say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, I am God’s Son...john 10;36 notice he said he was Gods son

He said to them: "YOU, though, who do YOU say I am?" In answer Simon Peter said: "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." In response Jesus said to him: "Happy you are, Simon son of Jo´nah, because flesh and blood did not reveal [it] to you, but my Father who is in the heavens did...matthew 16 ;15-17......and he agreed with simon peter

He was the foretold Messiah

But he kept silent and made no reply at all. Again the high priest began to question him and said to him: "Are you the Christ the Son of the Blessed One?" Then Jesus said: "I am; and YOU persons will see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of power and coming with the clouds of heaven.....mark 14 ;61-62

He also had a prehuman existence in heaven

because I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me....john 6;38

So he went on to say to them: "YOU are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. YOU are from this world; I am not from this world....john 8;23

John 17:3, RS: "[Jesus prayed to his Father:] This is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God ["who alone art truly God," NE], and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent." (Notice that Jesus referred not to himself but to his Father in heaven as "the only true God.")

 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
may said:
do YOU say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, I am God’s Son...john 10;36 notice he said he was Gods son

How did God (divine) have a non-divine son?

Does divinity skip a generation or two?

Was Jesus' lack of divinty a "birth-defect"?
 

Ahmadi

Member
ahmedhelmy said:
There is nothing called Ahmedya or bahaiaa or anything of that sort related to Islam. Islam have Quran, Mohamed and Mohamed's teaching. Anything else are nonsense. If anyone told you the he is Ahmedie Muslim and He is following another prohpet, then he is out of Islam. I never heard about this religion.
Dear Friend, you want people to open their minds and to reconsider their faith. I think that you also need to open your mind and stop making such ridiculous claims as that Ahmadiyyat is nonsense. Since you seem to have very little knowledge about Ahmadiyyat, let me give you a few basic facts:

1. Ahmadis have the same Quran as the 1.2 billion Muslims around the world
2. Ahmadis believe in Muhammad (saw) as a prophet and follow his teachings the same way the 1.2 billion Muslims in the world do.

If you call Ahmadiyyat nonsense, then you are also calling the Quran nonsense and our Quran happens to be the same Quran that you follow.
 

KirbyFan101

Resident Ball of Fluff
Jesus was a man. A very radical, idealistic, and somewhat inspirational man with values that we can relate to even today. I think Jesus was great, but we must never forget...

Jesus managed to convince a bunch of very primative, very supersticious people that he was the son of God. For a man of his ingenuity, it was most certainly very easy. People in that time were very very dosile. Even the most basic "out of the box" magician set could fool these people.

If I went back into Jesus's time with some modern day weapons and a wrist watch, i'm sure I could have them believing that I was God!
 

may

Well-Known Member
Scott1 said:
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How did God (divine) have a non-divine son?

Does divinity skip a generation or two?

Was Jesus' lack of divinty a "birth-defect"?

Just as the living Father sent me forth and I live because of the Father, he also that feeds on me, even that one will live because of me.....john 6;57you seem to be forgetting something here, Jesus ransom sacrifice can give us everlasting life no ordinary man can do that

 

James the Persian

Dreptcredincios Crestin
may said:

Just as the living Father sent me forth and I live because of the Father, he also that feeds on me, even that one will live because of me.....john 6;57you seem to be forgetting something here, Jesus ransom sacrifice can give us everlasting life no ordinary man can do that

I very much doubt that Scott is forgetting that at all, given that he believes that Christ is divine. I'd be interested to understand how you think an archangel in human form could achieve this, though.

James
 

may

Well-Known Member
IacobPersul said:
I very much doubt that Scott is forgetting that at all, given that he believes that Christ is divine. I'd be interested to understand how you think an archangel in human form could achieve this, though.

James
Gods only begotten son can acheive any thing when he is doing the will of God.
 

James the Persian

Dreptcredincios Crestin
may said:
Gods only begotten son can acheive any thing when he is doing the will of God.
Well, I agree that God's only begotten Son can do this, but I fail to see how said son could be an archangel. God created, he did not beget, the angels and if Arch. St. Michael was a begotten son of God then so would be, at least, Gabriel, Rafael, Uriel and even Lucifer! That would hardly make him 'only begotten', would it? It would also rather alter the relationship between God and Satan, don't you think?

James
 
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