Arizona Immigration Law SB1070

xkatz said:

This bill is such a waste of time. Law enforcement should be focusing on more important things like organized crime, homicide cases, and other, more important issues. Also, why should we stop others from coming to our country? They are often coming illegally because they and their families are often suffering. They work to help their families towards a better future. What needs to change is our attitude towards immigration.

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Why should we stop anyone from coming into our country? With that being said why don't we invite the rest of the world into our country, no questions asked...just come over and we'll take care of you.

If I give charity to you, I'll do that as a citizen, but don't obligate my country to solve all the worlds problems. People are criticizing the US all the time saying we get our nose where it doesn't belong...I say that's damn true.

I see no reason to change an attitude. If you come into my country, I expect that you are going to be a positive member [contributing] of society and not just a leach. I don't see other countries having a different attitude.

Occasionally I travel to Canada, they drill me at the checkpoint asking me why I'm there, for how long and who I'm going to see. That is there right to question me and they have every right to tell me to **** off if they want to. If a Canadian cop stopped me and asked to see my passport, I say "yes sir" and show it to him. I don't act like a fool and walk around as if I own the place having no identification.

Entering another country should be done with humility.

Ciscokid said:

Why should we stop anyone from coming into our country? With that being said why don't we invite the rest of the world into our country, no questions asked...just come over and we'll take care of you.

If I give charity to you, I'll do that as a citizen, but don't obligate my country to solve all the worlds problems. People are criticizing the US all the time saying we get our nose where it doesn't belong...I say that's damn true.

I see no reason to change an attitude. If you come into my country, I expect that you are going to be a positive member [contributing] of society and not just a leach. I don't see other countries having a different attitude.

Occasionally I travel to Canada, they drill me at the checkpoint asking me why I'm there, for how long and who I'm going to see. That is there right to question me and they have every right to tell me to **** off if they want to. If a Canadian cop stopped me and asked to see my passport, I say "yes sir" and show it to him. I don't act like a fool and walk around as if I own the place having no identification.

Entering another country should be done with humility.

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I do agree with you about letting people in. It is important to take measures to regulate immigration. If we don't regulate immigration, America will become like England were you have too many immigrants coming in.

However, most immigrants do not simply "leech off" of society. Many do jobs most other people are unwilling to do. Most immigrants to our country and others, are people who are willingly to work for their money.

As to your last paragraph, traveling to and immigrating to a country are two completely different things. Yes, you should have an ID when traveling to another country. As for immigration, many people do not have documents or what not or don't feel like they have the time to wait for their documents to legalized by the gov't. While it would be ideal to have immigrants carry their documents for security measures, it is not always practical. Also it is not fair for people who are legitimate, immigrants and legal US citizens to have to be forced to carry documents with the fear of being thrown in jail.

xkatz said:

Many do jobs most other people are unwilling to do.

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Source please.

xkatz said:

Most immigrants to our country and others, are people who are willingly to work for their money.

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Source please.

Reverend Rick said:

I honestly don't believe the police will hassle law abiding people under this new law.

They have enough to do already.

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See... that leads to the part of the bill that I find absolutely ridiculous:

11 G. A PERSON MAY BRING AN ACTION IN SUPERIOR COURT TO CHALLENGE ANY
12 OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL
13 SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE THAT ADOPTS OR IMPLEMENTS A POLICY THAT LIMITS OR
14 RESTRICTS THE ENFORCEMENT OF FEDERAL IMMIGRATION LAWS TO LESS THAN THE FULL
15 EXTENT PERMITTED BY FEDERAL LAW. IF THERE IS A JUDICIAL FINDING THAT AN
16 ENTITY HAS VIOLATED THIS SECTION, THE COURT SHALL ORDER ANY OF THE FOLLOWING:
17 1. THAT THE PERSON WHO BROUGHT THE ACTION RECOVER COURT COSTS AND
18 ATTORNEY FEES.
19 2. THAT THE ENTITY PAY A CIVIL PENALTY OF NOT LESS THAN ONE THOUSAND
20 DOLLARS AND NOT MORE THAN FIVE THOUSAND DOLLARS FOR EACH DAY THAT THE POLICY
21 HAS REMAINED IN EFFECT AFTER THE FILING OF AN ACTION PURSUANT TO THIS
22 SUBSECTION.

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IOW, if a county sherriff instructs his deputies to focus their efforts on preventing murder instead of rounding up illegals to the full extent that the law allows, the sherriff would be liable for at least a grand a day plus legal costs to any Tom, Dick or Harry who feels like suing him.

Frankly, this part of the law sounds insane to me. It deliberately hampers the ability of civil servants and elected officials to do their jobs.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

See... that leads to the part of the bill that I find absolutely ridiculous:



IOW, if a county sherriff instructs his deputies to focus their efforts on preventing murder instead of rounding up illegals to the full extent that the law allows, the sherriff would be liable for at least a grand a day plus legal costs to any Tom, Dick or Harry who feels like suing him.

Frankly, this part of the law sounds insane to me. It deliberately hampers the ability of civil servants and elected officials to do their jobs.

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Yeah, that's another part I don't get. I'm assuming the idea is to make sure the cops really do enforce this, but it seems like a ridiculous system of doing that.

Ciscokid said:

Why should we stop anyone from coming into our country? With that being said why don't we invite the rest of the world into our country, no questions asked...just come over and we'll take care of you.

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Stopping large numbers of people coming over the boarder is not hard at all. You don't need to build a fence or arrest people who look Mexican. It's simple, just have a easy accurate way for employers to check peoples immigration status. Then if they break the law hold the employer and his company responsible. I have a hard time believing that to many HR people want to spend time in jail.

Wannabe Yogi said:

Stopping large numbers of people coming over the boarder is not hard at all. You don't need to build a fence or arrest people who look Mexican. It's simple, just have a easy accurate way for employers to check peoples immigration status. Then if they break the law hold the employer and his company responsible. I have a hard time believing that to many HR people want to spend time in jail.

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Attempts like this have failed.

It is not the employer's responsibility to enforce the law, only not to employ people that are not allowed to work in the United States.

angellous_evangellous said:

Attempts like this have failed.

It is not the employer's responsibility to enforce the law, only not to employ people that are not allowed to work in the United States.

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They have failed because there is no system that can accurately say who is or is not a legal immigrant. Big business has no interest in finding a solution to the problem.

Why would the employer be responsible. The government should be the one who gives the info to the employer.

Let me just say that I dont see over the boarder Immigration from Mexico as a big problem, but it would be nice to know who is in our country. I know a Guy who came in from Sweden with in 10 days of coming here he had all the fake ids he needed to work.

Wannabe Yogi said:

They have failed because there is no system that can accurately say who is or is not a legal immigrant. Big business has no interest in finding a solution to the problem.

Why would the employer be responsible. The government should be the one who gives the info to the employer.

Let me just say that I dont see over the boarder Immigration from Mexico as a big problem, but it would be nice to know who is in our country. I know a Guy who came in from Sweden with in 10 days of coming here he had all the fake ids he needed to work.

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Having a social security number is a pretty damn accurate way of determining legal work status, so we can't say that an illegal is difficult to identify - or at least someone is not employable because they don't have a SS number.

BUT it's quite a different thing to prove that a person who doesn't happen to have their SS card (which would put an employer at risk of hiring someone illegally), and even reporting them to the government for not presenting one at the time of hire is also a bit rash.

Wannabe Yogi said:

They have failed because there is no system that can accurately say who is or is not a legal immigrant.

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there is now:

Wannabe Yogi said:

Big business has no interest in finding a solution to the problem.

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Hell no.
they love to hire illegals at much lower wages.

Wannabe Yogi said:

Why would the employer be responsible.

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The employer should be responsible when they illegally employ illegal aliens.

Wannabe Yogi said:

The government should be the one who gives the info to the employer.

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And just how does the government get the info on the illegal aliens to give to the employer?

Wannabe Yogi said:

Let me just say that I dont see over the boarder Immigration from Mexico as a big problem, but it would be nice to know who is in our country. I know a Guy who came in from Sweden with in 10 days of coming here he had all the fake ids he needed to work.

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this bill that arizona gots is not a cure all by any means.
It still needs some work.
they still have to finish ironing out the little details.
But at least it is a start.
I mean, it isn't like the Federal Government is going to actually do anything.

Being an actual resident of Arizona, I am part of those who pay billions in taxpayer dollars thanks to illegal immigrants. Enough is enough. Additionally, American's need to realize that it is that state's responsibility to govern and manage the state--not the federal government, who has done nothing to halt illegal immigration. I'd like you to name another country in the world who allows illegals free everything once they get here. The answer is NOT ONE. Every European country, and even our neighbor Mexico, is incredibly harsh and does not pay nor support in any way illegal immigrants. Mexico doesn't even allow you to buy real estate/land if you aren't a citizen.

Ummm....we are required by law to carry driver licenses and proof of insurance. Is it that far fetched that we carry ID stating we are a citizen. If it means I don't have to keep cashing out in the form of billions in taxes for the health insurance coverage, free education, et. al for illegals (neither of which I get by the way--no free health insurance or free education), I will gladly carry it. I'd rather have that money going to US citizens and their kids, not Mexico's or anyone else's citizens. And newsflash, the majority of the illegals in Arizona are hispanic--big surprise there. Many legal hispanics and Mexican-Americans are in favor of SB 1070 because they paid the price to do it right and be legal! In some cases, it took them 7 years.

Lightgirl, are you seriously suggesting that illegal immigrants do not pay US taxes?

Reverend Rick said:

I honestly don't believe the police will hassle law abiding people under this new law.

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Mister_T said:

You have more faith than I do, especially considering that Arizona has a history of not embracing ethinic diversity with open arms. Cops around here in liberal California harass law abiding citzens all the time with our laws, so that's a long shot in my eyes.

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Exactly, considering AZ already has a less than stellar track record here.
[youtube]tpjd5sh8xCM[/youtube]

The new birthers: Arizona truck driver arrested, forced to show birth certificate « Colorado Independent

Finally, the whole unconstitutional mess is being challenged. I suspect it will go down in flames.
ACLU and Civil Rights Groups File Legal Challenge to Arizona Racial Profiling Law -- PHOENIX, May 17 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ --

lightgirl said:

Being an actual resident of Arizona, I am part of those who pay billions in taxpayer dollars thanks to illegal immigrants.

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I suggest a better accountant.
The bulk of taxes are not incurred from illegal immigrants accessing health care, education, etc. (which is what I assume your argument is), but in the costs from enforcing stupid laws and wasting money on ridiculous anti-immigration programs. In fiscal year 2004 the budgets of Immigration and Customs Enforcement, Department of Homeland Security and Customs and Border Protection all increased: CBP's budget exploded from 6 billion to 11.4 billion, ICE's from 3.7 to 5.7 billion. Up until March of this year (when Napolitano froze the program) congress had set aside over 3.7 billion to erect a border fence with cameras and SBInet tech'. It's been estimated that maintaining a 2,000 mile long fence across the border would cost anywhere from 33 billion to 140 billion to maintain over a 25 year period. The tax dollars involved are mainly from wasteful extravagant programs like these and none of these expenditures have resulted in a decrease in illegal immigration (see Scott Borger's immigration study in 2009).

lightgirl said:

Enough is enough.

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I agree. End unconstitutional racial profiling programs that are ripe for abuse and reform immigration laws that currently bleed American citizens dry, unjustly prevent immigrants from seeking a better life, and simply have no positive impact on our society.

lightgirl said:

Additionally, American's need to realize that it is that state's responsibility to govern and manage the state--not the federal government, who has done nothing to halt illegal immigration. I'd like you to name another country in the world who allows illegals free everything once they get here.

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None do, including the U.S.

lightgirl said:

The answer is NOT ONE.

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I love getting answers correct! :yes:

lightgirl said:

Every European country, and even our neighbor Mexico, is incredibly harsh and does not pay nor support in any way illegal immigrants. Mexico doesn't even allow you to buy real estate/land if you aren't a citizen.

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I'd start a discussion on the EU but it'd be more appropriate for another thread plus I have to get up for work in 3 hours.

lightgirl said:

Ummm....we are required by law to carry driver licenses and proof of insurance. Is it that far fetched that we carry ID stating we are a citizen. If it means I don't have to keep cashing out in the form of billions in taxes for the health insurance coverage, free education, et. al for illegals (neither of which I get by the way--no free health insurance or free education), I will gladly carry it.

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Nobody gets health insurance or education for free, not even immigrants who've entered the country illegally. Lou Dobbs' urban legend has spread far and wide...
The State Children's Health Insurance Program requires applicants to comply with citizenship documentation through the SSA as they do with Medicaid. With Obama signing the legislation in Feb. '09 he so graciously added another 4.1 million uninsured children and allowed states to determine whether or not to treat illegal immigrant children who have been in the U.S. for less than 5 years. If your argument is that they can get immediate medical attention in emergency rooms then yes, they can. But I'm gonna go out on a limb and propose that treating people with serious ailments and the citizens absorbing the costs through taxes is simply a mark of a civilized nation. Maybe that's just me though.
Consumer Reports Health Blog: The myth that will not die: Health care for immigrants

Unsupervised emigration from Latin America to the United States is an issue needing to be addressed, and I support the fundamental characteristics of the Arizona legislation, but I think this would be coordinated between the border states (North and South).

States should be able to enforce their own laws within constitutional guidelines. If a driver is pulled over without a license in Arizona, and the law dictates that he or she must be brought to the local police station to run a background check, that's fine. Work visas need to be better monitored and leased out less often.

The federal government needs to introduce a grace period of about one or two years. Undocumented families should have to pay a fine to register each person as a citizen and saying an oath to the country.

There are going to be crazies on both side of this issue arguing for either mass deportation lines or unscripted free-for-fall. Polls indicate most Americans just want a balanced solution that won't hurt existing families too much. Let's explore that path.

lightgirl said:

Being an actual resident of Arizona, I am part of those who pay billions in taxpayer dollars thanks to illegal immigrants. Enough is enough.

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Why do you pay billions thanks to illegal immigrants? Why do you believe that violating civil rights is a good way of solving this problem?

Additionally, American's need to realize that it is that state's responsibility to govern and manage the state--not the federal government, who has done nothing to halt illegal immigration.

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It is the state's responsibility to govern and manage the state, but it's the federal government's responsibility to manage immigration.

I'd like you to name another country in the world who allows illegals free everything once they get here. The answer is NOT ONE. Every European country, and even our neighbor Mexico, is incredibly harsh and does not pay nor support in any way illegal immigrants. Mexico doesn't even allow you to buy real estate/land if you aren't a citizen.

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So, what you're saying is you don't think people in other countries illegally get to use that country's programs and benefits? You may want to do a little research then. If you still want to rant on about the problem after you're educated on it, go right ahead.

lightgirl said:

Ummm....we are required by law to carry driver licenses and proof of insurance.

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If you're driving.

Is it that far fetched that we carry ID stating we are a citizen.

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It might not be that far-fetched, but it's certainly a violation of our rights.

If it means I don't have to keep cashing out in the form of billions in taxes for the health insurance coverage, free education, et. al for illegals (neither of which I get by the way--no free health insurance or free education),

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Again, you should probably check the facts before coming to conclusions.

I will gladly carry it. I'd rather have that money going to US citizens and their kids, not Mexico's or anyone else's citizens. And newsflash, the majority of the illegals in Arizona are hispanic--big surprise there. Many legal hispanics and Mexican-Americans are in favor of SB 1070 because they paid the price to do it right and be legal! In some cases, it took them 7 years.

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I'm glad they're for it. If you're a rational American who likes the Constitution and your individual rights, you should be against it.

lightgirl said:

Many legal hispanics and Mexican-Americans are in favor of SB 1070 because they paid the price to do it right and be legal! In some cases, it took them 7 years.

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Just like all those black slaves who fought for the Confederacy, loving their masters and supporting state's rights.

Sunstone said:

Lightgirl, are you seriously suggesting that illegal immigrants do not pay US taxes?

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Yes--I am seriously suggesting that in many cases; consider day laborers for starters.