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Beginning?

Apotheosis

Apotheosis

Member
Hey guys, I would like some help with this question, which I cant seem to solve myself no matter how hard I think.

All theories involving the creation of earth, be it the Big Bang, or God, all have an inherit problem. Who made God-Who made the guy who made God-etc..

The big bang started with one atom, how did that atom get there?

The Universe is like a pool, in which everything we know exists, well where is the pool located, in an even bigger universe?
 
No*s

No*s

Captain Obvious
Apotheosis said:
Hey guys, I would like some help with this question, which I cant seem to solve myself no matter how hard I think.

All theories involving the creation of earth, be it the Big Bang, or God, all have an inherit problem. Who made God-Who made the guy who made God-etc..

The big bang started with one atom, how did that atom get there?

The Universe is like a pool, in which everything we know exists, well where is the pool located, in an even bigger universe?
Click to expand...

Basically, there is one basic response: something didn't have a cause.

If I were to say that the universe is causeless, then I can word this by saying the universe/multiverse is eternal with an endless regression of causes.

I'm a Christian, so I assert that God has a causeless being, a true being of sorts, and everything else, including the universe, is a derivitive being and thus a caused being.

I'm sure there are other responses, but those will be the most common ones besides "I don't know" :).
 
Terrywoodenpic

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
God is not a physical being. Consider him pure thought that does not exist in time. God has no starting or finishing point. That is what eternal means.
God creates every thing that exists in time.
From the big bang to now all happens in time, and is known to God.
If this universe came to an end it would have no effect on God. He is not of the physical universe.
Even now at this moment in our time, God sees the beginning and end of the universe.

Terry
_____________________________________
Amen! Truly I say to you: Gather in my name. I am with you.
 
EnhancedSpirit

EnhancedSpirit

High Priestess
Apotheosis said:
Hey guys, I would like some help with this question, which I cant seem to solve myself no matter how hard I think.

All theories involving the creation of earth, be it the Big Bang, or God, all have an inherit problem. Who made God-Who made the guy who made God-etc..

The big bang started with one atom, how did that atom get there?

The Universe is like a pool, in which everything we know exists, well where is the pool located, in an even bigger universe?
Click to expand...
God is not a 'WHO'. God is the why, and the how.
 
Apotheosis

Apotheosis

Member
I likewise came to the conclusion that there has to be something without a cause, which implies an error in the logic which is the basis for all science, which is a tad disturbing.

To the others, if God is a constant, who will always be here, it begs the question how God was created, I understand you believe he has always been here, and always will be here, but that doesnt seem to work with anything else that we know of, so why should God be the exception to the rule? If you see a rabbit you will think it was born, so why is God the one thing that has neither a beginning nor an end?
 
Original Freak

Original Freak

I am the ORIGINAL Freak
I don't understand why the Universe...why 'everything' had to have a beggining.

Time is eternal, so is matter and energy.
 
James the Persian

James the Persian

Dreptcredincios Crestin
Apotheosis said:
I likewise came to the conclusion that there has to be something without a cause, which implies an error in the logic which is the basis for all science, which is a tad disturbing.

To the others, if God is a constant, who will always be here, it begs the question how God was created, I understand you believe he has always been here, and always will be here, but that doesnt seem to work with anything else that we know of, so why should God be the exception to the rule? If you see a rabbit you will think it was born, so why is God the one thing that has neither a beginning nor an end?
Click to expand...
Saying that God is without cause does not imply an error in the logic behind science at all. Science is bound up with this universe i.e. it can only make sense of things within the universe. Like all systems of logic it is limited to things within the boundaries of that system and can say nothing of anything that might happen outside the system. Note that this is not speculation but is a widely accepted limitation of all logical systems whether they be mathematics, philosophy, science or anything else.

The only way, therefore, you could run into a contradiction between the uncaused God and the causality of all things assumed by science is if God were part of the universe and hence bound by the same system which science describes. This is not and has never been the position of Christianity, where God is seen as wholly other and outside of all creation. It is, therefore, a logical impossibility to ask for any scientific proof of the existence of God and, conversely, a self-existent, uncaused God would have absolutely no bearing on the axioms of science.

James
 
Cynic

Cynic

Well-Known Member
Terrywoodenpic said:
God has no starting or finishing point. He is not of the physical universe.
Click to expand...
These statements seem flawed to me. By you isolating God from the physical universe, you are giving a starting and finishing point. If you claim that God has no limits, then why are you placing limits as to what God is and what God is not a part of?
 
Cynic

Cynic

Well-Known Member
Original Freak said:
My question is...if god can have no beggining and end, why can't space and time?
Click to expand...
I think in order for spacetime to be infinite, there would have to be no spacetime, and all matter would have to have infinite mass (or no mass). You would have to reverse the big bang basically. But, I really don't know, these are just my assumptions. To me, God would be the big bang, and the result of the big bang itself, meaning everything in existence in it's temporary, illusive state of flux. (it's rather a pantheistic perspective).
 
michel

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Cynic said:
These statements seem flawed to me. By you isolating God from the physical universe, you are giving a starting and finishing point. If you claim that God has no limits, then why are you placing limits as to what God is and what God is not a part of?
Click to expand...
Terry's post read:- "God is not a physical being. Consider him pure thought that does not exist in time. God has no starting or finishing point. That is what eternal means.
God creates every thing that exists in time.
From the big bang to now all happens in time, and is known to God.
If this universe came to an end it would have no effect on God. He is not of the physical universe.
Even now at this moment in our time, God sees the beginning and end of the universe."

I think you will find that terry is showing God to be 'above' the physical Universe - ie there may well be a start and an end to the universe as we know it, But God is 'Over' (as in super' ) that.:)
 
Engyo

Engyo

Prince of Dorkness!
There is always the Buddhist perspective, which is that the question of origin isn't really all that important. Does the answer change your day to day existence? Does it change what you want to do with your life, or how you impact those around you? Does it make the world we inhabit better or worse?
 
Original Freak

Original Freak

I am the ORIGINAL Freak
Engyo said:
There is always the Buddhist perspective, which is that the question of origin isn't really all that important. Does the answer change your day to day existence?
Click to expand...
Actually it does, because. The Young Earth, Old earth debate conserning education could effect us all. What about the philosophy that everything effects us in someway.
 
Engyo

Engyo

Prince of Dorkness!
Original Freak said:
Actually it does, because. The Young Earth, Old earth debate conserning education could effect us all. What about the philosophy that everything effects us in someway.
Click to expand...
If we could come to some sort of conclusive, verifiable, universally acceptable agreement, maybe. Since we can't, it is a debate. The results don't change my mortgage, or my salary, or the fact I have to feed and walk my dogs every day. They don't put gas in my tank, or make it unnecessary for me to go to the dentist next week. Or do they? If they do, I can't see how. Enlighten me, please.
 
Original Freak

Original Freak

I am the ORIGINAL Freak
If creationism is suddenly taught in school, then it will effect the whole dynamics of education as we know it. Suddenly we are behind the rest of the world in our sciences and the world in which you live in may not be directly affected but it will be indirectly, Especially if you have kids. The debate could effect you because of the outcome of the debate. The outcome of the debate could lead to certian actions that could effect the world you live in and thereby effect you, even if in a minor way. IT's the whole ripple effect thing.
 
Engyo

Engyo

Prince of Dorkness!
Original Freak said:
If creationism is suddenly taught in school, then it will effect the whole dynamics of education as we know it. Suddenly we are behind the rest of the world in our sciences and the world in which you live in may not be directly affected but it will be indirectly, Especially if you have kids. The debate could effect you because of the outcome of the debate. The outcome of the debate could lead to certian actions that could effect the world you live in and thereby effect you, even if in a minor way. IT's the whole ripple effect thing.
Click to expand...
Ahh, but now we are talking about the results of a POLITICAL debate, not the actual answers to the origin question itself. They are two totally different things.
 
M

may

Well-Known Member
Jehovah is dynamic energy that is powerful

The Bible shows God to be the source of the energy locked up in the material universe. We read: "Raise your eyes high up and see [bodies of the solar system, stars, galaxies]. Who has created these things? It is the One who is bringing forth the army of them even by number. . . . Due to the abundance of dynamic energy, he also being vigorous in power, not one of them is missing." (Isaiah 40:26) "He is the Maker of the earth by his power."—Jeremiah 10:12

 
waR toRn Rebel

waR toRn Rebel

Member
I think it is out there we just have not found it. Like some reaction. Remember we haven't been able to make an atom hit absolute zero, it all matters to what happens when that atom hits absolute zero. Whop knows maybe some hidden law of matter will be exposed and the atom will unfold or some weird reaction will take place and show us how how it all started until then we must can only imagine. BTW we are only .00027 degrees away from doing it.
 
sandy whitelinger

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
I think the problem is that you are trying to apply one set of rules (physics) to a situation (God) in which the rules don't apply. It may be analygous to using the rules of football to play poker.

Beginnings and endings would only seem to apply in a scenario where there is time. Why does time have to exist in all scenarios?
 
waR toRn Rebel

waR toRn Rebel

Member
sandy whitelinger said:
I think the problem is that you are trying to apply one set of rules (physics) to a situation (God) in which the rules don't apply. It may be analygous to using the rules of football to play poker.

Beginnings and endings would only seem to apply in a scenario where there is time. Why does time have to exist in all scenarios?
Click to expand...
I don't believe that there is a god, so I'm not using phisics to a situation that the rules don't apply. And who are you to say that the rules don't apply in this situation? I mean if no one knows what happened then we don't know what rules where applied.
 
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