God Debate

chuck010342 · Jul 15, 2005

pandamonk said:
found a mistake
this is what is meant

The transcendence vs omnipresence argument

1. If God exists, then he is transcendent (i.e., outside space and time)
2. If God exists, then he is omnipresent
3. To be transcendent, a being cannot exist anywhere in space
4. To be omnipresent, a being must exist everywhere in space
5. Hence, it is impossible for a transcendent being to be omnipresent (from 3 and 4)
6. Therefore it is impossible for God to exist (from 1, 2, and 5)

Some observations about this argument

God doesn't exsist in space and time that is correct. however that doesn't mean that he can't do things within time and space. God exsists in Heaven which is outside space and time. That doesn't mean God doesn't exsist, it only means that he doesn't exsist in Space and time.

pandamonk · Jul 15, 2005

Sabio said:
True, God created the rules and He could have made it so the opposite is never needed. But if you did not know evil how could you appreciate good? How would you know the goodness of God without the example of evil (sin, Satan, fallen angels)?

Thats up to God to figure that one out. He could of made it so you could appreciate good without evil. Seeing as God is omnipotent. He made the rules, he should (couldn't not) have made it possible to appreciate good without evil!

Sabio said:
Correction; God cannot exist as "you" know Him, He does exist as "I" know Him.

No correction: You agreed with me on my definition of God, so God cannot exist as "WE" know him!! If you go back on your word, you are admitting that I'm right and that you have to change your definition. If you disagreed with my definition you should have said so. You cannot merely change your definition of God if and when you see fit in a debate, that is why I made everyone agree at the start. If you change your definition, then we have no chance of having any sort of debate.

Sabio said:
God does not come to us on our terms or conform to our image of Him (although Satan does as a counterfeit, so that you will be deceived into beleiving a lie). God being supreme sets His own terms, and we must come to Him and commune with Him on His terms, not ours. If we try to set the terms of our discourse with God, through our own pride we make ourselves into "little gods" by making our desires greater than the desires of God. He creates, we are the creation, we are created at His pleasure and for His pleasure.

If we are in any way greater than God then God cannot be considered a god. Yes, there is nothing but him(all-goodness), he creates and now there is evil, he creates evil. So evil was created at God's pleasure and for God's pleasure? Does sound very God-like does it?

Sabio said:
There are others that you may refer to as "deity", they are princes, rulers and principalities in the spiritual realm. These are in actuality Satan and the angels that by their own free will decided not to follow God (also known as demons, or unclean spirits). They now inhabit the atmosphere surrounding the earth. Their livelihood is to decieve man with counterfeits and spiritual deception, they only seek to steal, kill, and destroy. I agree that these are not gods, nor will they ever be, they are condemed to an eternity in Hell, against God's will, because of their own choice.

Blah blah blah, show evidence of this. (not biblical or internet. But, is there any other you can show me? hmm)

Sabio said:
That is the same choice we all have to make. Since we can see how good God really is, we have the free will to follow Him and partake of HIs goodness through His Son Jesus. Or we can choose to be like the fallen angels, condeming ourselves against God's will.

blah blah blah, heard it all before. Unfounded fantasy-like beliefs.

Sabio said:
Yes I did, but you are caught in an endless loop, there is no answer to your circular question and reason.

I pray that you will have an open mind and and open heart.
Sabio

Yes there is no answer, and it all shows God cannot exist. Every argument is based on each attribute ascribed to any god, God cannot be considered a god if it does not have all these attribute. And i proved without a doubt (which you admitted, by trying to change you're definition) that each attribute is contradictory with the other attributes, and even within themselves!!!:woohoo:

pandamonk · Jul 15, 2005

chuck010342 said:
Some observations about this argument

God doesn't exsist in space and time that is correct. however that doesn't mean that he can't do things within time and space. God exsists in Heaven which is outside space and time. That doesn't mean God doesn't exsist, it only means that he doesn't exsist in Space and time.

But in being omnipresent, God exists everywhere, including within time and space. So God cannot exist both, only outside of space and time (transcendence) and everywhere inside space and time (omnipresence). Therefore God cannot exist.

chuck010342 · Jul 16, 2005

pandamonk said:
But in being omnipresent, God exists everywhere, including within time and space. So God cannot exist both, only outside of space and time (transcendence) and everywhere inside space and time (omnipresence). Therefore God cannot exist.

you might have some rope to hang me with here.

I'm not sure, but can you show me where in scripture it says God is omnipresent? God the father does not have a physical body. When we are talking about God we are not discussing a phyiscal Body, unless its God the son.

in one sense God is Omnipresent (God exsits everywhere) We say this because God can do things in any place in any time. So its LIKE God is omnipresent but in actuallity he is not. I say he is not because I cannot see God as he moves by me. I can see God but its not like seeing a physical object like a lamp. Seeing God is like when you pray and what you are praying for comes true. Like when in Exodus when the wizards of the Egyptians say "this is the finger of God" they don't really mean Gods physical finger.

pandamonk · Jul 16, 2005

chuck010342 said:
you might have some rope to hang me with here.

I'm not sure, but can you show me where in scripture it says God is omnipresent? God the father does not have a physical body. When we are talking about God we are not discussing a phyiscal Body, unless its God the son.

in one sense God is Omnipresent (God exsits everywhere) We say this because God can do things in any place in any time. So its LIKE God is omnipresent but in actuallity he is not. I say he is not because I cannot see God as he moves by me. I can see God but its not like seeing a physical object like a lamp. Seeing God is like when you pray and what you are praying for comes true. Like when in Exodus when the wizards of the Egyptians say "this is the finger of God" they don't really mean Gods physical finger.

[font=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]Where can I go from your spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? If I go up to the Heavens, you are there; If I make my bed in the depths, you are there. If I rise on the wings of the dawn, if I settle on the far side of the sea,(Psalm 139:7-13) This shows omnipresence, including within space and time. The far side of the sea is within our world, within our space and with our time!
"Am I only a God nearby," declares the LORD, "and not a God far away? Can anyone hide in secret places so that I cannot see him?" declares the LORD. "Do not I fill heaven and earth?" decares the LORD.(Jeremiah 23:23,24)In this "the LORD" is even saying he fills heaven and earth. [/font]
...that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath...(Deut.4:39)again God is on earth, within space
[font=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]Jesus' omnipresence: [/font]And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age. (Matthew 28:20b)He is with them, to the end of the age. Is that not saying he is with them in time?; For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them. (Matthew 18:20)with them, and seeing as they are within space and time he must also be in space and time.

michel · Jul 16, 2005

pandamonk said:
But in being omnipresent, God exists everywhere, including within time and space. So God cannot exist both, only outside of space and time (transcendence) and everywhere inside space and time (omnipresence). Therefore God cannot exist.

Yousee pandamonk, there you go again - with a fallacy of a mere mortal. For us, time exists; but there is noreason why the biorythmic rules should be applicable to God. Time is merely an earth - based calculation based on night and day - on other planets, your time measurments would make no sense whatsoever - I am sorry, but that leaves little value to your statement.

pandamonk · Jul 16, 2005

michel said:
Yousee pandamonk, there you go again - with a fallacy of a mere mortal. For us, time exists; but there is noreason why the biorythmic rules should be applicable to God. Time is merely an earth - based calculation based on night and day - on other planets, your time measurments would make no sense whatsoever - I am sorry, but that leaves little value to your statement.

But, in my statement, I quote, from the Bible, that God is present on this earth. So, by being present on this earth he knows time as we know it, so exists within time as we know it. And being present on this earth he exists in space. Being transcendent, he cannot exist within time and space. So, i conclude, he does not and cannot exist. If you say he does not exist within our time and space you are saying he is not omnipresent, so also cannot exist. In your post you only deal with time, you do not deal with space. If he is present on this earth he is present within space, and therefore is not transcendent, and therefore, cannot exist.

michel · Jul 16, 2005

pandamonk said:
But, in my statement, I quote, from the Bible, that God is present on this earth. So, by being present on this earth he knows time as we know it, so exists within time as we know it. And being present on this earth he exists in space. Being transcendent, he cannot exist within time and space. So, i conclude, he does not and cannot exist. If you say he does not exist within our time and space you are saying he is not omnipresent, so also cannot exist. In your post you only deal with time, you do not deal with space. If he is present on this earth he is present within space, and therefore is not transcendent, and therefore, cannot exist.

There you go again, assuming.............

"So, by being present on this earth he knows time as we know it, so exists within time as we know it" - How on Earth can you KNOW what God can and can't do ? - have you asked him ?

For sake of example - imagine a set of dimensions; we are in dimension 1; there are people in dimension 2 (maybe those in Purgatory - waiting for their sins to be atoned for) - but God is in the highest of dimensions. He makes his own rules, you know, he doesn't answer to anyone else - It almost angers me when we feel we can set limitations on God...........:shout

pandamonk · Jul 16, 2005

michel said:
There you go again, assuming.............

"So, by being present on this earth he knows time as we know it, so exists within time as we know it" - How on Earth can you KNOW what God can and can't do ? - have you asked him ?

For sake of example - imagine a set of dimensions; we are in dimension 1; there are people in dimension 2 (maybe those in Purgatory - waiting for their sins to be atoned for) - but God is in the highest of dimensions. He makes his own rules, you know, he doesn't answer to anyone else - It almost angers me when we feel we can set limitations on God...........:shout

Well, God's word, the Bible, tells us what God is and is not. So, God tells us his limits through his word, which cannot be wrong, if they are his words. I have not asked him, because I do not believe that he exists. If God makes his own rules, that's great, but can't make a rule then go and break it. He cannot make logic then go and break it. If he does, that puts us into mass confusion, which an omnibenevolent, all-loving God cannot do. He cannot cause us any harm, and confusion can be considered greatly harmful. The Bible tells us what he is and is not and from this, we can work out his limits. He is omniscient, so he must know what time it is, so therefore, in knowing what time it is, he must exist, even if only partially, within that time. His mind knows that time, so his mind exists within that time. There is no doubt about it. If not, the buck is with you to prove, without a doubt, that it is not.

Also, no-one has put forth an argument against any of the other, attribute disproof, arguments.

pandamonk · Jul 16, 2005

michel said:
It almost angers me when we feel we can set limitations on God...........:shout

A limit which you cannot deny is that on God's ability to do evil. If God is all-good he cannot therefore do evil, and if he can he cannot be all-good.

chuck010342 · Jul 16, 2005

pandamonk said:
[font=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]Where can I go from your spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? If I go up to the Heavens, you are there; If I make my bed in the depths, you are there. If I rise on the wings of the dawn, if I settle on the far side of the sea,(Psalm 139:7-13) This shows omnipresence, including within space and time. The far side of the sea is within our world, within our space and with our time!
"Am I only a God nearby," declares the LORD, "and not a God far away? Can anyone hide in secret places so that I cannot see him?" declares the LORD. "Do not I fill heaven and earth?" decares the LORD.(Jeremiah 23:23,24)In this "the LORD" is even saying he fills heaven and earth. [/font]
...that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath...(Deut.4:39)again God is on earth, within space
[font=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]Jesus' omnipresence: [/font]And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age. (Matthew 28:20b)He is with them, to the end of the age. Is that not saying he is with them in time?; For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them. (Matthew 18:20)with them, and seeing as they are within space and time he must also be in space and time.

I think you just ignored the later part of my statement. when Jesus says "I am the door" do you look for a doornob on him? (as C.S. Lewis) used to say.

michel · Jul 16, 2005

pandamonk said:
A limit which you cannot deny is that on God's ability to do evil. If God is all-good he cannot therefore do evil, and if he can he cannot be all-good.

I can deny; please stop telling me what I can and cannot do. If you don't mind, I will leave you to your mutterings.........

pandamonk · Jul 16, 2005

michel said:
I can deny; please stop telling me what I can and cannot do. If you don't mind, I will leave you to your mutterings.........

Ok describe your "God" so we can at least have a debate. If you cannot describe your god, then you cannot possibly know your god, and therefore have no reason to believe in your god, from my point of view anyway, and if there is a reason, tell me.

chuck010342 said:
I think you just ignored the later part of my statement. when Jesus says "I am the door" do you look for a doornob on him? (as C.S. Lewis) used to say.

what, this?

chuck010342 said:
Like when in Exodus when the wizards of the Egyptians say "this is the finger of God" they don't really mean Gods physical finger.

How do you know what they "really mean"? You are assuming. Give me scriptural referance that states it is not really Gods finger. Are you trying to take it metaphorically, are you saying it did not actually happen? How do you decide what did and what did not actually happen, and how do you know that what you decide is right? And the whole doorknob thing, I do not know what C.S. Lewis actually means. Do you? If so, explain.

pandamonk · Jul 16, 2005

michel said:
I can deny; please stop telling me what I can and cannot do. If you don't mind, I will leave you to your mutterings.........

Ok you can deny, but i will not accept your denial until you have shown me why, and how you came to that conclussion.

Cynic · Jul 18, 2005

Let me ask you theists something. Do you believe God is infinite?

Sabio · Jul 18, 2005

Cynic said:
Let me ask you theists something. Do you believe God is infinite?

Yes, God defines infinite, it is part of His character. You cannot have infinity without God. God Himself is infinite, and His characteristics are unchanging and infinite.

What is your followup question? (I know you assumed that someone would answer in the ifirmitive).

Sabio

michel · Jul 18, 2005

Let me ask you theists something. Do you believe God is infinite?

I personally would not like to say whether God is infinite. We have no way of 'picturing' God - there is no need to. All we need to know is that God is all loving, and, as a Christian, that I love him.

pandamonk · Jul 18, 2005

michel said:
Let me ask you theists something. Do you believe God is infinite?

I personally would not like to say whether God is infinite. We have no way of 'picturing' God - there is no need to. All we need to know is that God is all loving, and, as a Christian, that I love him.

Ok, finally, you have described your God. Ok, so he is all-loving, (infinitely loving), and cannot do or command anything of any harm, because he loves infinitely and cannot bare to see anything be hurt, especially by him. Now that you must agree. If not, you cannot, for one second, call your god anywhere near all-loving. And if not, you are talking absolute tripe, and nothing you say can be of any interest in this debate, so i will merely ignore you until you start talking sense.

I cannot see how an all loving good could ever punish, but for the sake of argument well say he can punish for evil acts.

An all-loving god, that punishes for evil acts, would not punish for disobeying his will, if they did not/could not know his will being disobeyed, is evil. If he did, he would be acting unjustly and it would be greatly unfair on the thing being punished, and an all-loving god could not act unfairly(unjustly), harming a, somewhat, innocent(as it did not see that what it was doing was wrong)being.

Now to look at the Bible. Hmm, don't have to look very far to find an instance of this unfair behavior. (Gen. 3:16-19)

(The Impossibility of God, pages 127-128)

THE PARADOX
OF EDEN

In the book of Genesis, we are told that God created Adam and Eve and put them in the garden of Eden. God also placed in the midst of the garden of Eden the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Adam and Eve were permitted to eat of any of the trees in the garden of Eden, but God commanded them not to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. The forbidden fruit was eaten by Adam and Eve, and God punished them for their disobedience (see Gen. 3:16-19).
Notice that there is a difficulty with this story. Before they ate the forbidden fruit, Adam and Eve either knew that obeying God is good and disobeying God is evil, or they did not know this. If they knew it, then Adam and Eve would have already possessed the knowledge of good and evil...Adam and Eve would not very likely be tempted to eat the forbidden fruit because they would have nothing to gainby disobeying God. So, since God's command not to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil was an inadequate and unfair test of the righteousness of Adam and Eve if they already possessed the knowledge of good and evil, God acted unjustly by making this command if they already had the knowledge.
On the other hand, if Adam and Eve did not know that obeying God is good and disobeying God is evil, then they could not have known that it was wrong or evil to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. So, since God punished Adam and Eve for doing something that they could not have known to be wrong or evil, God acted unjustly by punishing them. It would appear to follow that whether or not Adam and Eve knew that obeying God is good and disobeying God is evil, God acted unjustly. But, then, God is just at one time and unjust at another time.

God constantly acts in an un-loving way throughout the bible, as i showed in the first post here: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16259

Scott1 · Jul 18, 2005

pandamonk,

Don't you get tired of this endless preaching? The same tired arguments over and over again....

There is no "Paradox of Eden".... there is only ignorance of Biblical teachings.

pandamonk · Jul 19, 2005

Scott1 said:
pandamonk,

Don't you get tired of this endless preaching? The same tired arguments over and over again....

There is no "Paradox of Eden".... there is only ignorance of Biblical teachings.

Maybe I keep repeating the same arguments because people like you keep ignoring them. You say things like "there is only ignorance of Biblical teachings" but you never actually address my arguments. You never actually show me where I have went wrong. You never try to put me right. You just say I'm ignorant because I do not believe what you believe and pick faults in what you believe.

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