Genesis 1

jewscout said:

well again the rule against idolitry is a thing for the Jews. The way i view the words of the Torah, a non-jew can worship HaShem in any manner they choose, they have that luxury.

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And yet my Mother who was Church of England baulked at the idea of my buying a carved ivory figure of Christ on a cross, when I was young; I can still hear saying it is wrong to pray to an ivory figurine. Although, as far as i am concerned, it could be anything; I sometimes feel the need for a focus. The cross also reminds me that Jesus died for us.

michel said:

Although, as far as i am concerned, it could be anything; I sometimes feel the need for a focus. The cross also reminds me that Jesus died for us.

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and in Deut. HaShem provides for that

Hello, jewscout.

jewscout said:

Deut. 4:15-16

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I definitely don't see this as proof that God has no corporeal form. On the contrary, Moses specifically reminded the children of Israel that they did not see His form. To me, that implies that He does have one. Otherwise, it would have made far more sense for Moses to have simply pointed out that God has no form.

As I said, there are far more verses which appear to support my position than I believe there are to support yours. Consider Exodus 33:11, for instance. "And the LORD spake unto Mosesface to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend."

I can speak to a friend via e-mail, but it's certainly not the most personal, intimate means of communicating. If I speak to him on the phone, I can at least hear his voice. But it is quite a different thing to speak to him face to face, to look into his eyes, to see his smile. It's truly hard for me to believe that you would consider Exodus 33:11 as being figurative in nature. For the sake of argument, just assume for a minute that He did have a corporeal form. How could He have possibly made it more clear than He did in this verse? If you can actually argue that this statement was never intended to be taken literally, what on earth would He have had to say to convince you?

HaShem has no form, if He were to have a form then we could create images of Him, this would lead to idolitry which He points out often is a big no-no.

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Again, I totally disagree. The fact is, we can create images of Him. If we couldn't, He wouldn't have warned us not to!

I'm honestly not expecting to convince you or anyone else that I'm right. All I am attempting to do here is to point out what the Bible says with respect to God's "image."

Kathryn

Terrywoodenpic said:

As for man being in Gods image , this I believe to be no more than a fable.

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How do you know where to draw the line then, Terry? How do you decide what is fact and what is fable? I'm assuming you believe that God created the heavens and the earth and everything in them. Would it be safe to say that this one statement just about sums it up for you? That none of the details the Bible provides are to be believed?

As for man being in Gods image , this I believe to be no more than a fable.

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Here is where most people just don't "get it". The image is spiritual. That is where we most differ from the other beasts of this planet. We see a glimpse of eternity.

NetDoc said:

Here is where most people just don't "get it". The image is spiritual. That is where we most differ from the other beasts of this planet. We see a glimpse of eternity.

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Hi, NetDoc.

Oh, I think it's just the Latter-day Saints who don't "get it." Everybody else seems to.

I'm curious as to why you believe that the image in spiritual. It wasn't spiritual when applied to Seth, the son of Adam in the fifth chapter of Genesis. Can you give me even one example of how you would use the word "image" in a sentence to mean anything other than what the dictionary says it means?

Here, for your reference, is how Webster's Unabridged defines the word:

1. an imitation or representation of a person or thing, drawn, painted, etc., especially a statue.
2. the visual impression of something produced by reflection from a mirror, refraction through a lens, etc.
3. a mental picture of something, such as an impression.
4. a symbol or an embodiment.
5. a vivid representation or graphic description

All of these definitions, to one extent or another, pertain to the representation of physical qualities. "I see my image in the mirror." "The little boy is the spittin' image of his father." Even the verb, "imagine" means to picture something in one's mind. Wouldn't it just be easier to admit that you don't believe the Bible is accurate in saying we were created in God's image or that Jesus Christ was in the express image of His Father's person?

You know, sometimes it seems to me as if people are much better at making the scriptures conform to their beliefs than they are at making their beliefs conform to the scriptures. (Nothing personal -- I realize I'm in the minority here. )

Kathryn

Katzpur said:

I definitely don't see this as proof that God has no corporeal form. On the contrary, Moses specifically reminded the children of Israel that they did not see His form. To me, that implies that He does have one. Otherwise, it would have made far more sense for Moses to have simply pointed out that God has no form.

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but Moses was not the only person who was in the presense of HaShem as Mt. Sinai. it was a national revelation to all of the people, not just Moses. So the Children of Israel did not see a form of HaShem or an image.

Katzpur said:

As I said, there are far more verses which appear to support my position than I believe there are to support yours. Consider Exodus 33:11, for instance. "And the LORD spake unto Mosesface to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend."

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again i think this is referring metaphorically...

Katzpur said:

For the sake of argument, just assume for a minute that He did have a corporeal form. How could He have possibly made it more clear than He did in this verse? ....Again, I totally disagree. The fact is, we can create images of Him. If we couldn't, He wouldn't have warned us not to!

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ok then.
What does He look like? compare Him to something. Is G-d a boy or a girl? Or a dog? Or an 18-Wheeler? A being with form can be quantified...quantify G-d.

Katzpur said:

I'm curious as to why you believe that the image in spiritual.

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Because Jesus told us that GOD IS SPIRIT. If we are created in his image, then it is a SPIRITUAL IMAGE.

John 4: 21 Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth." NIV

Katzpur said:

How do you know where to draw the line then, Terry? How do you decide what is fact and what is fable? I'm assuming you believe that God created the heavens and the earth and everything in them. Would it be safe to say that this one statement just about sums it up for you? That none of the details the Bible provides are to be believed?

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Most of the Bible can teach us some thing.
I tend to Judge what detail to belive, By whether it seems reasonable to me, not whether it is backed up by other detail in the Bible. For me much of the Old Testament falls into the doubtful category.( except for the Historical detail which is more provable)
When it comes to the New Testament the Teachings of Jesus are so much of a kind that they are easily to be believed and his Loving nature shines through. some of the New Testament seems to be more in line with old Testament writing and Jewish thought than that of Jesus. And for me has less authority.
All of the Bible was written and Edited by men. Many of them were plainly inspired, but like all mens works contains some error.

Terry
_________________________________
Blessed are those who bring peace, they shall be children of God

Okay, so 'God is Spirit" is the one thing in the Bible that tells you that God is a spirit. What about these?
Gen 32:30 "I have seen God face to face.
Ex 24:10 "They saw the God of Isreal"
31:18 "tables of stone, written with the finger of God"
33:23 "Thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen"
Num 12:8 "With him will I speak mouth to mouth"
2 Cor 4:4 " . . .Christ, who is the image of God . . ."
Philip 2:5-6 "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God"
Also, there are many references in the Bible to "the Spirit of God." Nobody would have to refer to the Spirit of God seperately if God did not have a corporeal form and God the Father was that spirit. It would be redundant.

God presented himself as a burning bush... so why don't we look like a burning bush?

jewscout said:

but Moses was not the only person who was in the presense of HaShem as Mt. Sinai. it was a national revelation to all of the people, not just Moses. So the Children of Israel did not see a form of HaShem or an image.

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Yes, but that was on a different occasion. Not everyone saw God face to face, but Moses said He did and I believe him.

again i think this is referring metaphorically...

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I know you do. I'm just saying that there is no real rationale for taking it metaphorically. You believe God has no form, and so you refuse to believe the verses in the Bible that speaks of His form. Isn't that backwards from how it's supposed to work? I would fully agree that there are verses in the Bible that are obviously metephorical or figurative in nature, but how any verse could possibly be more straightforward than this one, I'll never know. It doesn't even make sense in a metaphorical context -- at least not to me. Perhaps you could explain to me how Moses could have "spoken to God face to face, as a man speaks to a friend" in a metaphorical sense.

ok then. What does He look like? compare Him to something. Is G-d a boy or a girl? Or a dog? Or an 18-Wheeler? A being with form can be quantified...quantify G-d.

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He looks like a human being, which is exactly what Genesis 1:27 says. He created men and women in His image, after His likeness. He didn't create dogs or 18-wheelers in His image. Then in Genesis 5:1, Adam had a son, who was also in his image, after his likeness. His son looked like him; he didn't look like a dog or an 18-wheeler either.

In Exodus 24:10-11, the nobles of the children of Israel saw God -- clearly, we are told. In Exodus 33:23-23, He allowed His back to be seen but not His face. So, if that is also metaphorical, what is it a metaphor for exactly? A metaphor has to represent something. What were His "back parts" representative of? What was His "face" representative of?

Kathryn

NetDoc said:

Because Jesus told us that GOD IS SPIRIT. If we are created in his image, then it is a SPIRITUAL IMAGE.

John 4: 21 Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth." NIV

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What is a "spiritual image"? I've never heard of a spiritual image before. Would you use the phrase in a sentence, as you would in everyday language?

Terrywoodenpic said:

All of the Bible was written and Edited by men. Many of them were plainly inspired, but like all mens works contains some error.

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I'll go along with that!

NetDoc said:

God presented himself as a burning bush... so why don't we look like a burning bush?

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No, God didn't present Himself as a burning bush. Moses heard His voice come from within a burning bush. That's not the same thing at all. When God's voice is heard coming from Heaven, He is not presenting Himself as Heaven. If a ventriloquist can make his voice appear to be coming from somewhere other than from his own mouth, surely God can speak from a bush. And that's why we don't look like bushes -- well, that and the fact that God never said He was going to create bushes in His image.

Aqualung said:

Also, there are many references in the Bible to "the Spirit of God." Nobody would have to refer to the Spirit of God seperately if God did not have a corporeal form and God the Father was that spirit. It would be redundant.

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Good point. There are also several references to His form (some expressly mention that someone or other has not "seen His form"). Well, if He didn't even have a form in the first place, there surely would be a less ambiguous way of putting it! If I were to say, "Have I ever shown you my horns?" the person to whom I was speaking would likely answer, "What! Don't tell me Mormons really have horns!" :biglaugh:

Katzpur said:

"What! Don't tell me Mormons really have horns!"

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Of COURSE they do... I see them on top of all your temples! Usually you have an Angel blowing it!!!

Nice follow up for that Katzpur. You can always put what I want to say in terms that others can actually understand, instead of my mumbled up brain-speak.

NetDoc said:

Of COURSE they do... I see them on top of all your temples! Usually you have an Angel blowing it!!!

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:biglaugh:

NetDoc said:

Of COURSE they do... I see them on top of all your temples! Usually you have an Angel blowing it!!!

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:clap Good one! :clap

The Bible uses many expressions that make it seem like God has a corporeal form. This makes it easier to visualize God, which is pretty hard to do with a God that is in most instances invisible! But if he did, then he'd have to follow the laws of physics, which plainly God can go against. It makes much more sense for God to be a spiritual entitity.
It's called anthropomorphism. You make an abstract concept as close to what you can visualize in your head as possible, which means making it seem human (or you can make it seem animal, like other religions - Egyptian and Indian myths for instance- did.) For example, we talk about the "hands of time", but obviously time is not a body with hands. It's just a way to make it clearer to a primitive people.
Take this example. Let's say God is a colour - but a colour you have never seen before. How do you describe it???? Well, you simply take the colours you already know, or blend them. You make something ineffable into something familiar, to keep it from being so mindboggling. Other religions don't have a problem with the "mindboggling" aspect of deities, but we have a tradition that tries to make sense of things, and keep it from getting too metaphysical and mystic.