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Christian: Some passages about Jesus being God

EnhancedSpirit

High Priestess
Linus said:
Mark 2:5 And Jesus seeing their faith said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven." 6 But some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, 7 "Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?" ...
Jesus is saying that God forgives us before we even ask. It's up to us to accept forgiveness,and to realize that we are worthy.
Linus said:
John 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."
A reference to Exodus 3:14...
The bible also says that we were there from the beginning

Linus said:
John 10:33
Linus said:
The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."

John 20:28 Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

2 Peter 2:1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:

Found an additional one:
Titus 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

Isaiah 9:6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

Comparing the following sets of verses:

Isaiah 40:3 A voice is calling,
"Clear the way for the LORD in the wilderness;
Make smooth in the desert a highway for our God.

compared to

Matthew 3:1 Now in those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the wilderness of Judea, saying,


2"Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." 3For this is the one referred to by Isaiah the prophet when he said,
"THE VOICE OF ONE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS,
''MAKE READY THE WAY OF THE LORD,
MAKE HIS PATHS STRAIGHT!'"


Isaiah 42:8 "I am the LORD, that is My name;
I will not give My glory to another,
Nor My praise to graven images.

compared to

John 17:5 "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Isaiah 44:6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:
'I am the first and I am the last,
And there is no God besides Me.

compared to

Revelation 2:8 "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this:

I won't post al of psalm 102 because that would make this post way too long, but I will post Hebrews 1: 10-12

10And,
"YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
11THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,
12AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;
LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED
BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,
AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END."

Maybe this will get them posting...
Most of these are not Jesus calling himself God, but others calling him God. And I will emphasize. We are all divine children of God. We were all there from the beginning. God is within all of us. Jesus taught us to see God within us, not to search outside, to someone else, but seek God within. And as for Jesus being God's only begotten son . . .
    1. Jacob is God's son and firstborn: "Israel is my son, even my firstborn" Exodus 4:22.
    1. Solomon is God's son "He shall build an house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever. I will be his father, and he shall be my son": 2 Samuel 7:13-14.
    1. Ephraim is God's firstborn: "for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn." Jeremiah 31:9 (who is God's firstborn? Israel or Ephraim?).
    1. Adam is the son of God "Adam, which was the son of God." Luke 3:38.
    1. Common people (you and me) are the sons of God: "Ye are the children of the LORD your God" Deuteronomy 14:1. "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God" Romans 8:14. "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:" John 1:12. "That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" Philippians 2:15. "Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: ... now are we the sons of God" 1 John 3:1-2. "When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" Job 38:7. "Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD," Job 2:1. "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD," Job 1:6. "when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men," Genesis 6:4. "That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they [were] fair" Genesis 6:2
 

James the Persian

Dreptcredincios Crestin
Mujahid,

I assume that your family members are not (or at least not all) members of one of the Apostolic churches, as it sounds as though they are probably sola scripturalists. Not all Christians have the same sources of information to work with - Protestants eschew Holy Tradition whereas for us it is vitally important. Relying on Scripture alone does tend to cause the sorts of different interpretations you have noted.

I have three people trying to explain the same thing but yet somehow from the individual knowledge each has acquired from the same reference material you get three very different views on how it should be understood. What does God the one who is greater than Jesus according to his testimony say about the trinity wouldn't his proclamation on what he is be more valid. God says in Isiah that he is one so I am to take from that statement that he is one. Paul says The father ,the son and the holy ghost all of these are one. Jesus says the father is greater than I. You have 3 very different statements here. Not all can be right somebody is lying and who am I as a muslim or christian commanded to listen to.
I would have to say that there are no contradictions at all in the Scriptures you refer to. Firstly, the God of the OT is, from our point of view, the Holy Trinity, which is indeed One, though composed of three Hypostases. This is not a contradiction and is also what Paul is referring to when he says that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one. It is also true that the Father is greater than Christ, in two ways. Firstly, the Father is the source of the other two Hypostases, begetting one and proceeding the other so, in this sense the Father is the greatest Hypostasis in the Godhead and secondly, Christ was speaking while Incarnated as Man. This is an important point because as Scripture tells us, God the Son voluntarily humbled Himself when he came into the world as Jesus Christ. Very many Christians, however, fail to distinguish between temporal and eternal attributes of God which, incidentally, is one cause of our disagreements with the Roman Catholics over their addition of the filioque clause to the Creed, which distorts the relationship between Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Another reason for the differing interpretations of the Trinity you might come across is that the vast majority of Christians are simply not that theologically savvy. This is fine, for most people simple faith is more than enough - not everyone feels the urge to delve into the Mysteries of the faith the way I do.

James
 

EnhancedSpirit

High Priestess
IacobPersul said:
Christ was God the Son Incarnate as man. He was not God the Father or God the Holy Spirit. The One God is made up of all three (which we call Hypostases) who are all equally God but are not identical. God the Father is Unbegotten, God the Son is Eternally Begotten and the Holy Spirit Eternally proceeds from the Father. All three are God but they are not separate gods, merely separate Hypostases of the One.
James
I would agree with this analagy. Jesus is of God. He was completely connected to God his whole life. Aware of the connection, and did not seperate himself by sin.

However, he is not God Almighty. God said 'put no God's before me', he also said, do not make graven images of lesser Gods. I know we should honor the Son of God. We should recognize the light of God that shone so bright within him. But don't some go too far and say the Jesus IS GOD? Jesus taught us the the light of God shines within each of us, and we are not to hide it under a bushel, but let it shine.

There are many who take the few scriptures that refer to Jesus as being Godlike, and using to validate their beliefs, but why do they ignore the 81 times that Jesus himself says he is Son of Man? I do not think we should base our faith on specific portions of the bible, for each individual section is written by man, but on the whole bible, the whole bible, which is the word of God. Jesus is also 'the word', and we should also not base our faith of Jesus on just a few scriptures, but again on the whole.

My identity is not based on a few moments of my life, but the sum of the whole. I feel we should be seeking to find the light of God that shines in each individual. When I look at my children, I see God, and praise him. When I see two people in love, I see God, and I praise him. When I see evil in the world, I know the the light of God is being hidden beneath fear, hate, etc., but God resides there as well, and I praise him.
 

James the Persian

Dreptcredincios Crestin
EnhancedSpirit said:
There are many who take the few scriptures that refer to Jesus as being Godlike, and using to validate their beliefs, but why do they ignore the 81 times that Jesus himself says he is Son of Man? I do not think we should base our faith on specific portions of the bible, for each individual section is written by man, but on the whole bible, the whole bible, which is the word of God. Jesus is also 'the word', and we should also not base our faith of Jesus on just a few scriptures, but again on the whole.
The Scriptures are only one part of the basis for my beliefs and hence my belief in Christ is not based solely on them whether in part or taken as a whole. I also feel you are misunderstanding the phrase 'Son of Man' as this in no wise contradicts Christ's divinity, but you are entitled to your own beliefs however much I may disagree with them.

James
 

Linus

Well-Known Member
The phrase "Son of Man" is not a title that Jesus made up. Nor is it something that refers to his humanity alone. It is a reference to Daniel chapter 7 and refers to both His divinity and His humanity. I quote Paul E. Little from his book, Know Why You Believe:

The title Son of Man is one Jesus used to refer to himself, but always with some assertion of deity. In his words concerning his coming Jesus speaks of himself as the Son of Man come "to give his life a ransom for many."This is not a disclaimer of deity, by any means. Rather the title embraces both his deity and his coming as a part of the human race. His authority, miracles, treaching and character were traits true only of God.
 

njcl

Active Member
jesus is the son of god,he is not god and neither claimed to be,also why did he say father why has thy deserted me on the cross?..or was he talking to himself??,you see preposterous,never the less i percieve christ as a god and when on earth was equal or thereabouts in power to his father
 

profet

New Member
:162: As a Christian, I regard the Old Testament as semi-fictional drama with the exception of the 10 commandments which Jesus says are still in effect or when Jesus himself quotes from them. With regards to the gospel writings:

Mathew 1: 22 BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL," which translated means, "GOD WITH US."


Jesus' name was not Immanuel

Mark 2:6 But some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, 7 "Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?"


The scribes said that, not Jesus

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."

John 17:5 "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.


These quotes are no differant then Wayne Dyer saying "there is a universal source that has always existed and we can tap into it." It doesn't mean Wayne is claiming divinity.

John 10:33 The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."


Someone else was saying it.

Matthew 3:1 Now in those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the wilderness of Judea, saying, ''MAKE READY THE WAY OF THE LORD, MAKE HIS PATHS STRAIGHT!'"

This is the author of Matthew editorializing the appearance of John the Baptist, Again Jesus not saying anything.

Here is Jesus actually saying something: :162:

Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Matthew 20:23 but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
 

Linus

Well-Known Member
profet said:
Jesus' name was not Immanuel
Matthew here is quoting from Isaiah. It is a prophesy. Just because Jesus wasn't literally named Immanuel doesn't mean the prophesy doesn't apply. The language is somewhat figurative.


profet said:
The scribes said that, not Jesus
But Jesus doesn't deny it, does he? I think the message is clear. People interpreted Jesus' message as claiming to be God, and Jesus makes no confession otherwise.




profet said:
These quotes are no differant then Wayne Dyer saying "there is a universal source that has always existed and we can tap into it." It doesn't mean Wayne is claiming divinity.
Did you look at the other passages that refer to these?


John 8:58 refers to Isaiah 41:4

John 17:5 refers to Isaiah 42:8

Please read the passages in light of each other.

profet said:
Someone else was saying it.
Again, I don't see this fact as very significant. Jesus never denies it. I think the fact that the message was so powerful that other's see it for themselves without being told directly is pretty significant.

I think the Strongest arguments for the divinity of Jesus are these:

Isaiah 9:6
The comparison of Isaiah 44:6 and Revalation 2:8
The comparison of Isaiah 41:4 and John 8:58
2 Peter 1:1
Titus 2:13
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
profet said:
:162: As a Christian, I regard the Old Testament as semi-fictional drama with the exception of the 10 commandments which Jesus says are still in effect or when Jesus himself quotes from them.
profet,

As a Christian.... what was the point, then, of Christ dying on the Cross if he was just a man?
 

Linus

Well-Known Member
What do you all think about this one?

Colossians 2:9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10 and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.

I'll admit I don't fully grasp what the author is saying here, but that first verse seems to be saying something about Christ's deity. I don't know for sure though...
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
I don't know that I will EVER fully understand how Jesus is God, man and the Son of God all at the same time. I am sure that God has it down perfectly. So I will continue to work on my Godly character since he has told me to do so (thorugh Peter) and let God be God, and Jesus be Jesus. For after all, he desires mercy and not sacrifice; cheerful obedience and not spiritual navel gazing.

It comes down to understanding Charis (grace) and that means we are becoming JUST LIKE GOD. Jesus was full of Grace, and now my mission is to grow in his grace, becoming like him in every way.

II Corinthians 3:16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit. NIV
 

profet

New Member
scott1 -
A point to being crucified? I guess a graphic reminder of the fact that we kill just about everything we can find is point enough for me. Doesn't matter whether a person is presenting us with a wonderful spiritual way of living or is attacking us, we'll find an excuse to kill 'im anyway.
Look... I know that 99.999% of Christians believe that Christ dying on the cross and rising again are the two seminal events that define the religion, but I am one of .001% that doesn't think it matters in the slightest.
Face it... being immune to death or having the power to overcome it is a HUMAN notion of divinity based on OUR fears and just about every god in history has had those powers. If you discard personal faith in one specific religion, you can see that there is nothing special about that power; In fact immortality was a presumed trait of any god in the time of Christ. The addition of the resurrection to Christ's story seems a blatant attempt to appeal to potential converts who lived with that presumption. It worked... but we killed 100,000 Iraqis in the last 2 years... are we a Christian nation like our presidents seems to imply?
What he said about how we should behave and how he behaved himself are far more important than whether he properly fulfilled the words of some raving luny Jewish prophet from a century before he was born or whether he said "How's it going ladies!" to the women at the tomb after he had supposedly died.
In other words... I reject the notion that to be a Christian one has to believe in the resurrection. IMO, to be a Christian, one has to follow Christ. Not because he is God or because he has power over our biggest fear... but because he was right.
 

Linus

Well-Known Member
profet said:
I know that 99.999% of Christians believe that Christ dying on the cross and rising again are the two seminal events that define the religion, but I am one of .001% that doesn't think it matters in the slightest.

You make a good point, Profet. We need to follow Jesus because He lived as one should, set a perfect example for us, and preached the right message. But I think you are drastically (and that's an understatement) underestimating the imortance of the resurrection. And I think the Apostle Paul would agree with me there.

I Corinthians 15:13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; 14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain.
 

blueman

God's Warrior
Mujahid Mohammed said:
So if Jesus is god who according to your scriptures was he praying to on the cross. Am I to understand from the statements mentioned above he was talking to himself
That's where you get into trouble, looking at it in a very secular fashion. Jesus was speaking to His Father from the cross. Although this is the subject of another thread, the God-head is three person (God The Father,God The Son and God The Holy Spirit). The reason why Jesus proclaimed "I and My Father are one" in John 10:30 is because the have the same power and attributes and this would also apply to the Holy Spirit. If you ever wanted to know the way God The Father would have reacted to a given situation, just look at the life of Jesus. :)
 

profet

New Member
I think you are drastically (and that's an understatement) underestimating the imortance of the resurrection. And I think the Apostle Paul would agree with me there.
I Corinthians 15:13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; 14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain.
IMO, the part of the Bible that defines Christian beliefs begins at Matthew and ends at John. Before Matthew we are looking at Jewish history that can be used as background for analyses of Christs teachings, yet it is not Christ's teaching. After John we are looking at the history of the early church - followers spreading the teachings as they saw them and offering explanations to people who lived very differant lives than we do.
Why would I want to base my spiritual path on interpretations of Christ's teachings given to people who lived in city in an empire that no longer exists by people who were not Christ? I can go straight to the teachings that are being interpreted and make them relevant to me.
Also, Paul fails to define what a ressurrection is. I have felt what I believe to be Christ's presence before... but I felt it in the exact way Christ told us we could: Matthew 18:20 "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."
While discussing Christian teachings with others I definately felt the presence of a third independant spirit or idea rising in my mind that was only made palpable by the mingling of 4 other people's spiritual ideas. I could have read the Bible for 10 years and not have felt that presense.
That alternate idea (obviously) affected me quite a bit. So was this Chirst and is the ability to feel his presence even though he is dead what he meant by 'the ressurection' or does resurrection have to mean 'dead bodes rising and coming back to life' just because that makes us body oriented people feel more immortal.
Don't mean to be derogatory of your beliefs. As you can see I have issues with the Bible as literal history and as word of God :banghead3 .
IMO, If one can behave in the way Christ taught without believing in 'the resurrection' then it is not important or if one is free to define the resurrection as something other than ego-massaging immortality worship, then it can be useful.
Maybe I will find some more significance to it with further contemplation, but I have a lot of peacemaking, humility and loving my neighbor as myself to practice before I feel it neccessary to worry about that.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
profet said:
IMO, the part of the Bible that defines Christian beliefs begins at Matthew and ends at John. Before Matthew we are looking at Jewish history that can be used as background for analyses of Christs teachings, yet it is not Christ's teaching. After John we are looking at the history of the early church - followers spreading the teachings as they saw them and offering explanations to people who lived very differant lives than we do.
Why would I want to base my spiritual path on interpretations of Christ's teachings given to people who lived in city in an empire that no longer exists by people who were not Christ? I can go straight to the teachings that are being interpreted and make them relevant to me.
Also, Paul fails to define what a ressurrection is. I have felt what I believe to be Christ's presence before... but I felt it in the exact way Christ told us we could: Matthew 18:20 "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."
While discussing Christian teachings with others I definately felt the presence of a third independant spirit or idea rising in my mind that was only made palpable by the mingling of 4 other people's spiritual ideas. I could have read the Bible for 10 years and not have felt that presense.
That alternate idea (obviously) affected me quite a bit. So was this Chirst and is the ability to feel his presence even though he is dead what he meant by 'the ressurection' or does resurrection have to mean 'dead bodes rising and coming back to life' just because that makes us body oriented people feel more immortal.
Don't mean to be derogatory of your beliefs. As you can see I have issues with the Bible as literal history and as word of God :banghead3 .
IMO, If one can behave in the way Christ taught without believing in 'the resurrection' then it is not important or if one is free to define the resurrection as something other than ego-massaging immortality worship, then it can be useful.
Maybe I will find some more significance to it with further contemplation, but I have a lot of peacemaking, humility and loving my neighbor as myself to practice before I feel it neccessary to worry about that.
What are your 'Issues'?:)
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
profet said:
I reject the notion that to be a Christian one has to believe in the resurrection. IMO, to be a Christian, one has to follow Christ. Not because he is God or because he has power over our biggest fear... but because he was right.
OK.... but WHY?

What was he "right" about?

What's the point of following Jesus over, say.... any other philosophy?

You just happen to like Christ's better than those?

Thanks in advance for answering... we haven't had a ".001%" Christian like yourself around to chat with before.... this has been a great education if your beliefs... bless you for sharing with us!

Peace.... from the other 99.999% of us;) ,
Scott
 

profet

New Member
Scott1 said:
What was he "right" about? What's the point of following Jesus over, say.... any other philosophy?
I'm sure I could be a Buddhist if I came from a culture where that made sense to me or follow Sufi Islam if I was raised in a culture where that made sense to me. They have the same basic message as Christ and I know some people that follow each of them that live more like Christ than 90% of Christians. Those philosophies don't resonate with me though. I was born Catholic and did 12 years of Catholic school so it may be that I just had a 'Jesus neural pathway' burned into my way of thinking. Once I realized that is the only path I was going to understand though, I wanted to see what he taught and how he lived as opposed to the way organized religion presents his teachings and found no fault with his teachings at all. They make sense for a happy, peaceful life. The only thng that bothers me is that so many so-called-Christians don't care a whit about living like Christ and are more concerned with the endd of the world and judging other people.
(Both no nos according to Jesus.)
 
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