• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Faith as epistemology ?

cottage

Well-Known Member
Human perception.

How come then down the page you argue to ‘facts’

If you don't get the basics right, you will never get the complex right. You want to give yourself excuses for the faith you hold pertaining to up and down, what colour is the sky et al. Denying facts only builds a false foundation.

Get the facts of faith right first, then you may stand half a chance.

You constantly contradict yourself! One minute you argue to universal scepticism and the next minute to facts. Again, you don’t know your own argument.


What a load of circular reasoning and fallacious argumentation. Science like any other man made organisation is based on the perceptual reasoning of those involved in it. Trust is just another name for faith. Use the term Faith, it will not kill you.

Faith, as has already been pointed out to you, is belief without evidence. Science, or the belief that the future will be like the past, is based on foregoing evidence; it is a very reasonable system based on probabilities and one that has proved reliable.


Religion is based on base root ancient cultures. The job of science is to uncover the knowledge of these base root cultures. A sceptic never will, unless of course it is by accident and nothing to do with their own intelligence.

You do know of course that when we see the sun rise, we are not seeing the sun rise to that position, that we are seeing past history?[/quote]

Of course! And you have just given the perfect example of inductive reasoning. The very reasoning that you eschew!



Epistemology is for intellectually inept. I am not proposing epistemological explanations, I am trying to explain to epistemology, flat earth, society members, that knowledge has moved on without them. Twits will still be debating epsistemology when we have completely dismantled the human genome and rebuild it from scratch using base materials from the earth, or created a female from a male rib bone.

This is becoming ever more comical. Epistemology isn’t a particular theory! It is the term given the branch of philosophy that deals with the nature of knowledge. Your confusion is that you don’t know what your argument is: first you are arguing for universal scepticism and then you are saying science reveals knowledge. So now you need to explain how science proves the deity?
 

cottage

Well-Known Member
[/color]

I can agree with that statement. I don't think you think either, but plagiarise the thinking of other people.

Do you know what plagiarism is, before you make such accusations? If so quote the section or passages I’ve plagiarised. And I expect you to be a man and stand up for your assertion, instead of just throwing in statements and then running away, like you usually do!

What a very unreasoned question begging.
Only from a very illogical and irrational viewpoint, and providing of course, based on faith, you swallow the power of suggestion attached to it.

Very good, we had no knowledge of fossils till fossils were found and we had a knowledge of what fossils were. Prior to that, if a fossil were found, it may have been kicked around as a funny stone or as the ancient Australian aboriginal said, pictures of the Dreamtime. LOL then the anglo-saxon/european came along and discovered the already discovered and called it a fossil. LOL they did the same with Australia and the Americas, discovered the already discovered.

You simply do not understand - or pretend not to. There is no innate knowledge, which informed us: “There are fossils, which will help to explain the beginning of nature. Once we’ve found these fossils we will have that knowledge.” The knowledge came from the fossils, after they were found. 'Fossils exist' is a conclusion established by discovering them in experience, not as a priori knowledge.



Religion is the conclusion, based on the evidence collected and past on by base root, ancient cultures. LOL not the myth which circulates in your head.

Religion isn’t a ‘conclusion’. It is a faith-based system of belief in a deity or deities. And faith in a supernatural being is not evidence.

Do you know that the results from a survey in England found, a fair percentage of their population thought Churchill was a myth and Sherlock Holmes was real. This just goes to show how quickly a legend can turn to myth, and myth into legend. It all pertains to human perception.

If right now, due to a catastrophic climate change, all the knowledge of science was lost and mankind was reduced to a very small population of survivors, the base knowledge of what would be passed on to future generations, would be primarily based on the survivors perception. That within a few generations, our fossil records which we have now, could be reduced to mere myth and we would have to start the whole process again. In effect, mankind would become Hunters and Gatherers again.

I think that doomsday scenario is perfectly possible, and it argues the point that knowledge begins from experience and facts about the world, much of which, in the circumstances you describe, would certainly have to be relearned. And this in a very timely manner brings us back the matter in question, where you said: ‘It is only ignorance of knowledge that makes God a negative’. To which I replied that it must be a condition that God exists before it can be said that we are ignorant of that fact. A further example of the question begging was this; “Oh you mean like the negative when science went looking for fossil evidence when all we had at the time was suggestion and circumstantial evidence. You cannot uncover knowledge unless you go searching for it. Just like with the fossils, a negative can turn into a positive.” To saythere is a God (or fossils), if only we were to diligently seek them, is to assume the conclusion that you are hoping to prove. It is fallacious and tells us nothing.
My second point is again that you're very confused in your arguments: you’ve argued to universal scepticism, that nothing can be known, and there is only faith (beliefs). So if that’s the case, how is it then that ‘ignorance of knowledge’ makes God a negative’?


My words will always say nothing to you, and why I do not bother, I already have this knowledge, that your own intelligence will stop you from learning. Only when you know yourself, will you know. Until that time, I am very happy to leave you in your own knowledge.


You speak such nonsense. We spend our lives learning, and making mistakes! - all of us - even you! And yet you speak as if you're some kind of special authority on the source of knowledge. It wouldn't be quite so bad if your arguments weren't self-contradictory.
 

cottage

Well-Known Member
[/color][/font][/color]

LOL only your brain is relating the first sentence to the second. There is a relationship there though, one: That Descartes has been the closest to being correct, albeit I do not give a reason for this, and second: that knowledge is gained through the body senses or manipulation of this knowledge by human intelligence.

Your wriggling and squirming makes you look even more dishonest? Your second sentence plainly contradicts your first sentence. Only idiots would say a thing and then disagree with themselves in the next breath, which is exactly what you’ve done.


LOL the rest wasn't quoting Descartes, the rest was quoting you.

Absolutely exquisite! Now it’s my turn to laugh. You quoted me, disagreeing with Descartes, while believing you were quoting what Descartes was saying. ROTFLOL!


Either you got it the first time, or you didn't. I know you didn't, and this post is evident of that. It would take too long to explain it to you, not worth my time or the effort. I am happy to leave you with your intelligence and belief.

As you are taking the trouble to respond to my posts I’m afraid that is a very poor excuse. Have you not heard of summarising an argument, or listing the main elements in a few bullet points?



LOL you don't understand that for something to be demonstated as true, requires faith to believe it is demonstrated as true.

You are failing to see the distinction between certain knowledge and certain truth. The former may not be attainable but the later is, although it isn’t knowledge. A thing is the same as itself (A=A) and a thing cannot be p and not p at the same time and in the same way. These truths obtain regardless whether the things actually exist. Descartes, who you so admire, said the truth of a triangle is self-evident even if there are no triangles existent anywhere.
So if you (or anyone in the world) can demonstrate that a triangles three angles being equal to two right angles is false, then you will be correct. But you cannot seriously argue that everybody can be wrong in the case of something that is logically and empirically true while maintaining that a supernatural being exists independent of experience and demonstration!! You are trying to ride two horses that are a mile apart! It can’t be done because it leads you into self-contradiction.



Deities et al, will never be demonstated (even on a perceptual basis) for any person who a) doesn't go seeking the knowledge with an open mind and, b) for any person who lives in instant denial. Gods per se, must be aligned with available evidence, just like anything else in the universe around us, evidence alone gives a faith of belief in an alleged deity, probability.

‘Faith of belief’ makes no sense at all. You mean belief as faith. And what are ‘deities and others’ and God’s per se’? There is only God, or gods. Now then, you say ‘Gods’ must correspond with evidence, and yet elsewhere you dismiss evidence as mere faith. You need to make up your mind what counts as evidence and then sort out in your mind what you mean by ‘faith’.

LOL a sceptic lives on doubt, I live on acceptance. A sceptic sees the world as cup half empty, others see the cup as half full, I see the cup as half, neither full nor empty but somewhere in between.

LOL knowledge leads to more knowledge and an open mind. Scepticism on the other hand leads to subjectivity and a closed mind.


Please define for us what you actually mean by ‘knowledge’? You might also want to explain exactly what you mean by scepticism’: what is it about your particular scepticism that makes it different to the sense in which you are using it above?
 

footprints

Well-Known Member
You do know that faith means belief without evidence right? You are basically saying that all belief is equally as true as any other belief. We verify beliefs as true through reason and evidence. It is only beliefs we have no evidence for that are faith based.

Also, there is such a thing as the objective universe, which behaves as it will regardless of our 'perceptions' or "faith of belief"(???) or whatever else, as per my "rediculous" (ridiculous..) examples.

Like I have already informed you, nobody has faith in anything without reason and evidence. Which by the way, for a religious faith and belief in a deity can be tested by science, to a point in time equal to science. The specualation added by both, remains the dividing difference.

Does the universe exist?

Do they exist?

I could continue on, but that is enough to prove any point to any rational and logical person. All sound, rational and reasonable questions to ask and answer.
 

footprints

Well-Known Member
How come then down the page you argue to ‘facts’



You constantly contradict yourself! One minute you argue to universal scepticism and the next minute to facts. Again, you don’t know your own argument.


LOL Human perception is a fact. And I would hate to think what your mind has concluded from my answer of Human Perception.


Faith, as has already been pointed out to you, is belief without evidence. Science, or the belief that the future will be like the past, is based on foregoing evidence; it is a very reasonable system based on probabilities and one that has proved reliable.


Yeah, can you imagine anybody that ignorant of knowledge, to say that a human being can have a faith of belief without any evidence? How ignorant is that.

If you don't get the base facts right, everything built on that premise will be fundamentally flawed.


Of course! And you have just given the perfect example of inductive reasoning. The very reasoning that you eschew!



LOL, is that what I did, or did I point out to you, the epistemology delusion.


This is becoming ever more comical. Epistemology isn’t a particular theory! It is the term given the branch of philosophy that deals with the nature of knowledge. Your confusion is that you don’t know what your argument is: first you are arguing for universal scepticism and then you are saying science reveals knowledge. So now you need to explain how science proves the deity?

LOL epistemology is a theory. It is the perceptual opinions of a group of philiosophical, intellectual idiots who have looked too long and too hard at the sign post and lost touch with reality around them. They have even defined regions of which knowledge can be defined in.

LOL the confusion is, you have no idea what I am talking about. Not surprising though you have your own faith and your own belief, which I am happy to leave you with.
 

footprints

Well-Known Member
Do you know what plagiarism is, before you make such accusations? If so quote the section or passages I’ve plagiarised. And I expect you to be a man and stand up for your assertion, instead of just throwing in statements and then running away, like you usually do!


LOL of course, I know what plagiarism is, else I wouldn't have used the term. And, of course I can stand up for any assertion I make, whether I choose to or not is an entirely different matter. In some things I would much rather leave people with their own knowledge and intelligence.

But we need look no further than this post to see your plagiarism of thought perpetrated, please find this plagiarised quote from the quote directly below, as if I haven't heard this plagiarised crap and garbage a 1000 times before, the person who created it should be keel hauled for a lack of brains and intelligence:

” The knowledge came from the fossils, after they were found. 'Fossils exist' is a conclusion established by discovering them in experience, not as a priori knowledge.

Please tell me one major religion that didn't have a deity before it became a religion. God was in the Garden of Eden according to the story, Adam and Eve didn't magically invent this deity there. God exists is a conclusion established by discovering an alledged deity in experience, not as a priori knowledge.

If you cannot get the basics right, everything from that point in time will be fundamentally flawed.

You simply do not understand - or pretend not to. There is no innate knowledge, which informed us: “There are fossils, which will help to explain the beginning of nature. Once we’ve found these fossils we will have that knowledge.” The knowledge came from the fossils, after they were found. 'Fossils exist' is a conclusion established by discovering them in experience, not as a priori knowledge.



:rolleyes: of course, it is me who doesn't understand.


Religion isn’t a ‘conclusion’. It is a faith-based system of belief in a deity or deities. And faith in a supernatural being is not evidence.

What a load of perceptual crap and garbage. I am sure you have a great deal of faith in that belief.

I think that doomsday scenario is perfectly possible, and it argues the point that knowledge begins from experience and facts about the world, much of which, in the circumstances you describe, would certainly have to be relearned. And this in a very timely manner brings us back the matter in question, where you said: ‘It is only ignorance of knowledge that makes God a negative’. To which I replied that it must be a condition that God exists before it can be said that we are ignorant of that fact. A further example of the question begging was this; “Oh you mean like the negative when science went looking for fossil evidence when all we had at the time was suggestion and circumstantial evidence. You cannot uncover knowledge unless you go searching for it. Just like with the fossils, a negative can turn into a positive.” To saythere is a God (or fossils), if only we were to diligently seek them, is to assume the conclusion that you are hoping to prove. It is fallacious and tells us nothing.
My second point is again that you're very confused in your arguments: you’ve argued to universal scepticism, that nothing can be known, and there is only faith (beliefs). So if that’s the case, how is it then that ‘ignorance of knowledge’ makes God a negative’?


You are indeed very confused, albeit in your confusion you can see your own vision very clearly, just as you see the sun crest the horizon on a beautiful summers morn. It is only your faith and belief which puts you in this position.

Legend can turn to myth, and myth can turn to legend, all in the blink of an eye.



You speak such nonsense. We spend our lives learning, and making mistakes! - all of us - even you! And yet you speak as if you're some kind of special authority on the source of knowledge. It wouldn't be quite so bad if your arguments weren't self-contradictory.

LOL some people learn from their mistakes and move on. Others continually make the same mistakes and expect the world to change in their favour. As for me, I am happy to leave you with your beliefs and your intelligence. You of course will continue to keep arguing till everybody sees the world in your view.

P.S. LOL you don't speak half bad as some kind of special authority on the source of knowledge, yourself. There is an old saying which goes like this, "what we see in others, is only in ourselves." You may learn something from this truism, then again you may not.
 

footprints

Well-Known Member
Your wriggling and squirming makes you look even more dishonest? Your second sentence plainly contradicts your first sentence. Only idiots would say a thing and then disagree with themselves in the next breath, which is exactly what you’ve done.


LOL the only connection between the first sentence and the second sentence is that they were both my own thoughts. You little pyschic you, reading your own brain and thinking it is my thinking.


Absolutely exquisite! Now it’s my turn to laugh. You quoted me, disagreeing with Descartes, while believing you were quoting what Descartes was saying. ROTFLOL!


LOL you are amusing, you are much further away from knowledge than Descartes ever was. Descartes of course has been the closest of any person to date down the path of epistemology.


As you are taking the trouble to respond to my posts I’m afraid that is a very poor excuse. Have you not heard of summarising an argument, or listing the main elements in a few bullet points?


I could of course be extremely rude and just ignore you. That I am afraid is just not in my nature.


You are failing to see the distinction between certain knowledge and certain truth. The former may not be attainable but the later is, although it isn’t knowledge. A thing is the same as itself (A=A) and a thing cannot be p and not p at the same time and in the same way. These truths obtain regardless whether the things actually exist. Descartes, who you so admire, said the truth of a triangle is self-evident even if there are no triangles existent anywhere.
So if you (or anyone in the world) can demonstrate that a triangles three angles being equal to two right angles is false, then you will be correct. But you cannot seriously argue that everybody can be wrong in the case of something that is logically and empirically true while maintaining that a supernatural being exists independent of experience and demonstration!! You are trying to ride two horses that are a mile apart! It can’t be done because it leads you into self-contradiction.


LOL another perception on your behalf, I hardly admire Descartes, he too was a philosophical idiot, couldn't see the whole picture if it fell on him, and don't get me wrong, the knowledge was available at the time for Descartes to get it right.

LOL not surprising, the point pertaining to the triangle went straight over your head, due to your faith of belief. Legend can turn to myth, and myth into legend, in the blink of an eye.

‘Faith of belief’ makes no sense at all. You mean belief as faith. And what are ‘deities and others’ and God’s per se’? There is only God, or gods. Now then, you say ‘Gods’ must correspond with evidence, and yet elsewhere you dismiss evidence as mere faith. You need to make up your mind what counts as evidence and then sort out in your mind what you mean by ‘faith’.


Faith is the strength of conviction to which a belief is held, or, in modern day usage can be used as replacement in terminology for belief. Example: He/She has a faith in science, translates to He/She believes in science or, has a belief in science.

Down other lines, psychological, neurological et al, faith is aligned with human intelligence which helps build our perception. It is a fundamental part of the human survival instinct which triggers the fight or flight process.

If you cannot get the basics right, everything from that point on will be fundamentally flawed.

LOL I have never said, implied or otherwise remotely suggested that I dismiss evidence as mere faith, that is more in line with your thinking. I may have said, it takes a faith of belief to accept some evidence, I have never said this evidence should be dismissed.

Please define for us what you actually mean by ‘knowledge’? You might also want to explain exactly what you mean by scepticism’: what is it about your particular scepticism that makes it different to the sense in which you are using it above?

LOL you really are a confused person.
 
I could continue on, but that is enough to prove any point to any rational and logical person.
I'm quite sure there are many rational and logical people that would say you have been talking mostly nonsense since your first post in this thread. In fact, reading back, it seems nobody has agreed with you about anything. You must be the only rational and logical person here. With over 1800 posts and just over one million frubals in all that time it doesn't apear as if RF has many rational and logical people sharing your views in general. It must suck to be the only one around that has it right.
 

footprints

Well-Known Member
I'm quite sure there are many rational and logical people that would say you have been talking mostly nonsense since your first post in this thread. In fact, reading back, it seems nobody has agreed with you about anything. You must be the only rational and logical person here. With over 1800 posts and just over one million frubals in all that time it doesn't apear as if RF has many rational and logical people sharing your views in general. It must suck to be the only one around that has it right.

LOL you are a funny person. Is frubals your answer to things. LOL. If I wanted to collect frubals, it is easy, all I would have to do is enter the forum as a non-believer and slam religions and religious people with ridiculous arguments like you do. Either that or ignore all the posts which I oppose and just post in those where the majority who post in it agree with me. Of course, I choose to enter threads like this one, where more posters are against me, than for me. Personally I am surprised to have as many frubals as I have.

Personally I like to see how far a persons own personal faith, and blind faith like you hold, will take them. How long can any person hold their ridiculous beliefs when faced with pure reason, and just like you, what excuses will they come up with to keep their own intelligence. LOL your excuse and reason is frubals.

Faith is an integral part of attaining knowledge. We couldn't gain or hold knowledge any other way. As infants we start out in a position of Blind Faith, when we have confidence in our own knowledge, we move to a position of Faith, based on the logic and reason we have obtained (environment).

A person cannot hold a belief and have faith in that belief, without evidence and logical and rational reason for that belief, irrespective of how irrational that belief is, like your beliefs for example, LOL and some of your reasoning, frubals.
 

cottage

Well-Known Member
[/color][/size][/font][/font]

LOL Human perception is a fact. And I would hate to think what your mind has concluded from my answer of Human Perception.

Well of course human perception is a fact. Now explain which facts = knowledge?

You were responding to another poster whose logic and reason you said were ‘categorically wrong’. I asked you what was categorically wrong and you replied: ‘human perception’ (!) Now perhaps you will explain what was perceptually wrong, and what makes a thing perceptually correct?


Yeah, can you imagine anybody that ignorant of knowledge, to say that a human being can have a faith of belief without any evidence? How ignorant is that.


So you too must be ignorant, since you do it that the time! And it's 'belief as faith'. 'Faith as belief' make no sense at all!


If you don't get the base facts right, everything built on that premise will be fundamentally flawed.

Here’s your chance. Please give us the benefit of your wisdom by informing us what the ‘base facts’ are, upon which premises may be built?




LOL, is that what I did, or did I point out to you, the epistemology delusion.

You dig yourself into holes and tie yourself in knots. Yes, you called upon inductive reasoning, and cause and effect, in other words science! <guffaw!>


LOL epistemology is a theory. It is the perceptual opinions of a group of philiosophical, intellectual idiots who have looked too long and too hard at the sign post and lost touch with reality around them. They have even defined regions of which knowledge can be defined in.

LOL the confusion is, you have no idea what I am talking about. Not surprising though you have your own faith and your own belief, which I am happy to leave you with.

You haven’t answered my question: How does science reveal knowledge and how does it prove a deity?
 

cottage

Well-Known Member
LOL the only connection between the first sentence and the second sentence is that they were both my own thoughts. You little pyschic you, reading your own brain and thinking it is my thinking.

Below you say, explicitly: ‘Descartes of course has been the closest of any person to date down the path of epistemology.’ And here is your most laughable statement of all:
‘Descates ended up in scepticism, a position of doubt and knew there was no logical way out.’ Had you set out, deliberately, to be as wrong as possible in all respects, that statement couldn’t be improved on.

LOL you are amusing, you are much further away from knowledge than Descartes ever was. Descartes of course has been the closest of any person to date down the path of epistemology.


No he wasn’t. He failed! Did you not know that? <cottage splits sides laughing>



I could of course be extremely rude and just ignore you. That I am afraid is just not in my nature.

Er…you ignore me all the time by not answering questions!



LOL another perception on your behalf, I hardly admire Descartes, he too was a philosophical idiot, couldn't see the whole picture if it fell on him, and don't get me wrong, the knowledge was available at the time for Descartes to get it right.

Contradiction after contradiction! You have said: ‘Descartes was a very clever man.’
Now then, Descartes cannot be a ‘philosophical idiot’, while at the same time being ‘a very clever man’ who has come the closest yet to ‘any person to date down the path of epistemology.’ Delightful!



LOL not surprising, the point pertaining to the triangle went straight over your head, due to your faith of belief. Legend can turn to myth, and myth into legend, in the blink of an eye.


Hmm! I notice you have nothing at all to say on what I explained about truth and experience?



Faith is the strength of conviction to which a belief is held, or, in modern day usage can be used as replacement in terminology for belief. Example: He/She has a faith in science, translates to He/She believes in science or, has a belief in science.

Down other lines, psychological, neurological et al, faith is aligned with human intelligence which helps build our perception. It is a fundamental part of the human survival instinct which triggers the fight or flight process.

If you cannot get the basics right, everything from that point on will be fundamentally flawed.

Waffle!

1. Belief that. This is to believe that something is the case, as in ‘I believethat saltpetre, charcoal and sulphur, in the correct quantities, will make an explosive mixture’. There is also belief that, as in ‘I believe that aliens life forms exist in space’.

The first example is based on cause and effect and reasoning from experience: that mixture has combusted in the past and under the same conditions will do so again. The second example is a non-evidenced based speculation. But one can believe that aliens exist, without believing-in aliens.

2. Belief in. There is a commendatory function, where we believe-in someone’s ability, loyalty, credibility or nous (although we cannot logically believe in the contrary positions.)

Then there is the second form of belief-in. This is belief as faith, an emotional commitment, or a dogmatic attachment to a doctrine. Something is held to be the case, not just in the absence of evidence but even in spite of it. However, I think it is fair to acknowledge this belief-in may of course be supported by a belief that, as in faith supported by reason.


LOL I have never said, implied or otherwise remotely suggested that I dismiss evidence as mere faith, that is more in line with your thinking. I may have said, it takes a faith of belief to accept some evidence, I have never said this evidence should be dismissed.

Then answer me this:
A very simple question for you: give me an example of evidence that shouldn’t be dismissed?

LOL you really are a confused person.

You'd do better to answer my points, instead of concentrating on me as a person.
 

footprints

Well-Known Member
Well of course human perception is a fact. Now explain which facts = knowledge?

You were responding to another poster whose logic and reason you said were ‘categorically wrong’. I asked you what was categorically wrong and you replied: ‘human perception’ (!) Now perhaps you will explain what was perceptually wrong, and what makes a thing perceptually correct?

LOL all facts equal knowledge, I thought you would have known that basic bit of knowledge, looks like I was wrong.

LOL look I could explain, but I get more entertainment out of you answering things for me. I keep wondering what is your brain going to come up with next.

So you too must be ignorant, since you do it that the time! And it's 'belief as faith'. 'Faith as belief' make no sense at all!


Belief and faith are one in the same and are interchangeable words, else a person has faith (conviction) in their belief. Down scientific lines, faith is part and parcel of human intelligence and a prime trigger in the fight or flight mechanism.

Here’s your chance. Please give us the benefit of your wisdom by informing us what the ‘base facts’ are, upon which premises may be built?



LOL, have you a multipersonality disorder, you keep referring to us. Which one of your personalities am I conversing with now? Or are you that insecure that you find safety in numbers?

LOL the base facts of any knowledge is mum, mum, mum, mum, dad, dad, dad, dad, bub, bub, bub, bub, or any other similar words learned in blind faith as an infant child. An individuals knowledge base cannot start anywhere else and where all premises are built from. Genie Wiley a clasical example of what will and can happen if this blind faith value isn't triggered and the use it or lose it scenario comes into play.

However if you had followed up on the case studies of Genie Wiley, Oxana Malaya et al, and "Wild Child Syndrome," as you have previously been requested, I wouldn't have to spend so much time dealing with your perceptions.

You dig yourself into holes and tie yourself in knots. Yes, you called upon inductive reasoning, and cause and effect, in other words science! <guffaw!>


LOL. Just like the sun on the horizon, your brain is filled with many illusions, which you take on faith value, as absolute truth.

You haven’t answered my question: How does science reveal knowledge and how does it prove a deity?

To start off with, science is an inanimate object, it is impossible for science to reveal anything, please try and stick to reality.

People in science reveal knowledge the same as any other person on earth, they either do this verbally, in writing et al.

If you mean by reveal as in uncover, people in science do this the same way as any other person in life, by association and relationship of knowledge accumulated to date. Or like the religious and many other examples in life such as industry, marketing, civil services such as law enforcement, fire services et al, by investigative research, experimentation and evaluation.
 

footprints

Well-Known Member
Below you say, explicitly: ‘Descartes of course has been the closest of any person to date down the path of epistemology.’ And here is your most laughable statement of all:
‘Descates ended up in scepticism, a position of doubt and knew there was no logical way out.’ Had you set out, deliberately, to be as wrong as possible in all respects, that statement couldn’t be improved on.


LOL Descartes ended up in a sceptical position and knew there was no logical way out, so he did something else.


No he wasn’t. He failed! Did you not know that? <cottage splits sides laughing>


LOL I find your brain and the way it relates and associates fascinating.

LOL nobody but you has even remotely suggested he succeeded (albeit you did it in the negative sense that he failed), just that he has been the closest pertaining to epistemological argument. Epistemology hasn't succeeded and is still stuck in a flat earth mentality while the world has travelled on without them.


Er…you ignore me all the time by not answering questions!


LOL I answer your questions, just not how you would like them.


Contradiction after contradiction! You have said: ‘Descartes was a very clever man.’
Now then, Descartes cannot be a ‘philosophical idiot’, while at the same time being ‘a very clever man’ who has come the closest yet to ‘any person to date down the path of epistemology.’ Delightful!


LOL many clever people are intellectual idiots.


Hmm! I notice you have nothing at all to say on what I explained about truth and experience?


LOL Everybody on the face of the earth has truth and experience. Both are perception based.


Waffle!

1. Belief that. This is to believe that something is the case, as in ‘I believethat saltpetre, charcoal and sulphur, in the correct quantities, will make an explosive mixture’. There is also belief that, as in ‘I believe that aliens life forms exist in space’.

The first example is based on cause and effect and reasoning from experience: that mixture has combusted in the past and under the same conditions will do so again. The second example is a non-evidenced based speculation. But one can believe that aliens exist, without believing-in aliens.

2. Belief in. There is a commendatory function, where we believe-in someone’s ability, loyalty, credibility or nous (although we cannot logically believe in the contrary positions.)

Then there is the second form of belief-in. This is belief as faith, an emotional commitment, or a dogmatic attachment to a doctrine. Something is held to be the case, not just in the absence of evidence but even in spite of it. However, I think it is fair to acknowledge this belief-in may of course be supported by a belief that, as in faith supported by reason.

Waffle which doesn't align with reality and insults the very essence of scientific research.

A person cannot have a belief in something without believing in that something to a greater or lesser degree (probability). A person who considers the probability of aliens as zero has the belief that aliens do not exist and you would insult their intelligence if you tried to convince them that they did.

All beliefs are based on cause and effect, inductive reasoning and critical analysis of the data available, the normal human brain cannot work in any other way. If you are going to try and bring emotion into this, then I would suggest you use all human emotions including prejudice and bias which effects all epistemological argument.

Belief that, belief in, what ridiculous premises, no wonder epistemology gets it so wrong. Your emotional reasoning is you agree with the epistemological dogma you are preaching here.

Then answer me this:
A very simple question for you: give me an example of evidence that shouldn’t be dismissed?


No evidence should be dismissed, not even illogical epistemological argument, it should always be kept as knowledge and a reminder of where knowledge once came from and what we once believed.

You'd do better to answer my points, instead of concentrating on me as a person.

When and if you can practice what you preach, I may reciprocate.
 

dtackett

Member
Per the OP Here's a particularly relevant quote from a fellow Christian on the definition of Faith.
"Being persuaded and fully committed in trust, involving a confident belief in the truth, value, and trustworthiness of God. When it comes to Christianity, 'faith' is defined by three separate but vitally connected aspects (especially from Luther and Melancthon onwards): notitia (informational content), assensus (intellectual assent), and fiducia (committed trust). So faith is the sum of having the information, being persuaded of its truthfulness, and trusting in it. To illustrate the three aspects: "Christ died for ours sins" (notitia); "I am persuaded that Christ died for our sins" (notitia + assensus); "I deeply commit in trust to Christ who I am persuaded died for our sins" (notitia + assensus + fiducia). Only the latter constitutes faith, on the Christian view.

Consequently, notitia and fiducia without assensus is blind and therefore not faith. This shipwrecks the egregious canard that faith is merely a blind leap. Faith goes beyond reason&#8212;i.e., into the arena of trust&#8212;but never against reason. From the Enlightenment onwards, faith has been subject to constant attempts at redefining it into the realm of the irrational or irrelevant (e.g., Kant's noumenal category); but all such attempts are built on irresponsible straw man caricatures that bear no resemblance to faith as held under the Christian view: notitia, assensus, and fiducia." - Arcanus
 

cottage

Well-Known Member
[/color][/font]

LOL of course, I know what plagiarism is, else I wouldn't have used the term. And, of course I can stand up for any assertion I make, whether I choose to or not is an entirely different matter. In some things I would much rather leave people with their own knowledge and intelligence.

But we need look no further than this post to see your plagiarism of thought perpetrated, please find this plagiarised quote from the quote directly below, as if I haven't heard this plagiarised crap and garbage a 1000 times before, the person who created it should be keel hauled for a lack of brains and intelligence:

” The knowledge came from the fossils, after they were found. 'Fossils exist' is a conclusion established by discovering them in experience, not as a priori knowledge.

Clearly you don’t know what plagiarism means, and so I’ll explain it to you. It means where someone copies or reproduces another’s work, un-credited, or produces it as if it were their own. And ‘plagiarism of thought’ is a nonsense; there is no such thing. As has been pointed out many times, original thought is a dubious concept, since association and the conjunction of other ideas compound our thinking.
While I admit to being slightly flattered that you think the underscored sentence is plagiarised, I can assure you they are my own not very profound words. I challenge you to produce the original work you claim they are taken from (and the same goes for everything I write, that you think is copied, or hasn’t been credited) The fallacy of begging the question, which is what the sentence exemplifies, is obviously new to you as on several instances you’ve fallen straight into that error (as indeed you do again below). It simply means that you begin with your answer and then repeat it as your conclusion. Lastly, it discredits the person who derogates a thing without explaining why it deserves the derogation. And that is something you do with monotonous regularity.


Please tell me one major religion that didn't have a deity before it became a religion. God was in the Garden of Eden according to the story, Adam and Eve didn't magically invent this deity there. God exists is a conclusion established by discovering an alledged deity in experience, not as a priori knowledge.

If you cannot get the basics right, everything from that point in time will be fundamentally flawed.

I doubt you’ll ever get the hang of this. God isn’t the conclusion; God is the major premise! You’ve already said in your first sentence: if God, then religion; therefore no God, then no religions. And as Adam and Eve are themselves mythological characters they can’t be used to argue to God as the creator of those two, who are then used to argue to God as their creator! ROFL! That is a circular argument in the extreme! And you contradict yourself; you said that God existed before Adam and Eve experienced him, but then you say God is a conclusion established in experience!

LOL some people learn from their mistakes and move on. Others continually make the same mistakes and expect the world to change in their favour. As for me, I am happy to leave you with your beliefs and your intelligence. You of course will continue to keep arguing till everybody sees the world in your view.

P.S. LOL you don't speak half bad as some kind of special authority on the source of knowledge, yourself. There is an old saying which goes like this, "what we see in others, is only in ourselves." You may learn something from this truism, then again you may not.

If I may be blunt, I find you rather bizarre. You say you’re ‘happy’ to leave me in my ‘beliefs’ when you demonstrate very obviously that you’re not! You don’t make a proper case for anything, you spout opinion, back track on what you say, manipulate statements to mean something different from what you previously stated, and don’t seem to have a clear idea of where your arguments are going. You pick up on bits of information, which you then misapply while being oblivious to the fact that it looks foolish, and you think ‘LOL’ serves as an answer.
I don’t claim to be right in what I say, and I’m as prone to error as the next person, but I lay out my arguments and demonstrations, quote my sources, and give proper responses. Why can you not do the same?

N.B. I've not bothered with the retorts. But if you feel I've not addressed something, then please repost it and I'll answer by retrurn.
 
Per the OP Here's a particularly relevant quote from a fellow Christian on the definition of Faith.
"Being persuaded and fully committed in trust, involving a confident belief in the truth, value, and trustworthiness of God. When it comes to Christianity, 'faith' is defined by three separate but vitally connected aspects (especially from Luther and Melancthon onwards): notitia (informational content), assensus (intellectual assent), and fiducia (committed trust). So faith is the sum of having the information, being persuaded of its truthfulness, and trusting in it. To illustrate the three aspects: "Christ died for ours sins" (notitia); "I am persuaded that Christ died for our sins" (notitia + assensus); "I deeply commit in trust to Christ who I am persuaded died for our sins" (notitia + assensus + fiducia). Only the latter constitutes faith, on the Christian view.

Consequently, notitia and fiducia without assensus is blind and therefore not faith. This shipwrecks the egregious canard that faith is merely a blind leap. Faith goes beyond reason&#8212;i.e., into the arena of trust&#8212;but never against reason. From the Enlightenment onwards, faith has been subject to constant attempts at redefining it into the realm of the irrational or irrelevant (e.g., Kant's noumenal category); but all such attempts are built on irresponsible straw man caricatures that bear no resemblance to faith as held under the Christian view: notitia, assensus, and fiducia." - Arcanus

Firstly, you say you're about to make a statement as per the OP, yet nothing that follows has anything to do with faith as epistemology. How is any of this relevant?

Secondly, if you want to make a case that christian faith is somehow 'special' please do so in your own thread.
 
Last edited:

footprints

Well-Known Member
Clearly you don&#8217;t know what plagiarism means, and so I&#8217;ll explain it to you. It means where someone copies or reproduces another&#8217;s work, un-credited, or produces it as if it were their own. And &#8216;plagiarism of thought&#8217; is a nonsense; there is no such thing. As has been pointed out many times, original thought is a dubious concept, since association and the conjunction of other ideas compound our thinking.
While I admit to being slightly flattered that you think the underscored sentence is plagiarised, I can assure you they are my own not very profound words. I challenge you to produce the original work you claim they are taken from (and the same goes for everything I write, that you think is copied, or hasn&#8217;t been credited) The fallacy of begging the question, which is what the sentence exemplifies, is obviously new to you as on several instances you&#8217;ve fallen straight into that error (as indeed you do again below). It simply means that you begin with your answer and then repeat it as your conclusion. Lastly, it discredits the person who derogates a thing without explaining why it deserves the derogation. And that is something you do with monotonous regularity.

Intellectual dishonesty, Intellectual deceit knows no bounds, and once a person has started down that track, there is pretty much no turning back, as you have shown clearly in your post above.

Attaching a fallacious argument and deliberate intellectual deceit to a religious position that it is an a priori position, has been used a million times. Your plagiarism stands out a country mile, and to plagiarise utter garbage and try and hold it as estabished truth, reeks of either intellectual ignorance, or just down right deceit as you try and distort the facts of reality to suit your own belief.

If original thought didn't exist we would still be living in caves and knowledge and technology wouldn't go any further than it is today if original thought has all be used up. Your attempts at intellectual deceit to try and give your own belief credibility is laughable and a huge slap in the face for all people who are advancing the cause of knowledge and technology for and on behalf of mankind.


I doubt you&#8217;ll ever get the hang of this. God isn&#8217;t the conclusion; God is the major premise! You&#8217;ve already said in your first sentence: if God, then religion; therefore no God, then no religions. And as Adam and Eve are themselves mythological characters they can&#8217;t be used to argue to God as the creator of those two, who are then used to argue to God as their creator! ROFL! That is a circular argument in the extreme! And you contradict yourself; you said that God existed before Adam and Eve experienced him, but then you say God is a conclusion established in experience!

You are correct, I will never get the hang of intellectual dishonesty and intellectual deceit, and I certainly will never align with any belief, such as the one you are trying to project here, that tries to promote it.

As an agnositic (which is my position of belief), I personally don't know if a deity exists or not, evidence is fairly balanced between the two extreme beliefs of a deity existing and a deity not existing. However I am certainly not going to change this position by adding intellectual dishonesty and intellectual deceit to it, to get to your position of belief.

Just like fossils, gravity et al, deities et al, are alledged to have existed before mankind so called "invented" them. That Adam and Eve are mythical characters, again shows your intellectual dishonesty, intellectual deceit, and intellectual ignorance. Adam and Eve could be any base character from any base root, ancient culture (hunter and gatherer) around the world, not only does the scenario align perfectly with other base root cultures and our own scientific knowledge to date, commonsense should tell most people that base root cultures had to start from somewhere. Personally I would suggest some reading pertaining to bioligical eve might do you intelligence the world of good.

As for your belief that Adam and Eve are mythical characters, such is your belief, many people hold a belief based on a lack of knowledge (or ignorance of knowledge) and a lack of evidence (or ignorance of evidence), you are not alone and in some very intelligent company. People will do most anything to hold on to a belief, such is faith for you, it has a strong conviction, and for very good reason.

If I may be blunt, I find you rather bizarre. You say you&#8217;re &#8216;happy&#8217; to leave me in my &#8216;beliefs&#8217; when you demonstrate very obviously that you&#8217;re not! You don&#8217;t make a proper case for anything, you spout opinion, back track on what you say, manipulate statements to mean something different from what you previously stated, and don&#8217;t seem to have a clear idea of where your arguments are going. You pick up on bits of information, which you then misapply while being oblivious to the fact that it looks foolish, and you think &#8216;LOL&#8217; serves as an answer.
I don&#8217;t claim to be right in what I say, and I&#8217;m as prone to error as the next person, but I lay out my arguments and demonstrations, quote my sources, and give proper responses. Why can you not do the same?

Sounds more like you are talking about yourself here, but just don't know it.

My LOL, is a genuine laughter, as is the smile on my face when I read some of the garbage you are trying to promote as some form of fact. It is an answer, you just don't know it. I already have the knowledge and education which gives me the answer, that it is impossible to talk commonsense and logic to a madman, I also have the experience to go with it. You have your own position of belief, irrespective of how unreasonable it is in the face of reality and known facts, it is a reasonable position to you, to your own logic and intelligence.

Why am I happy to leave you with your own knowledge and intelligence? Simple really, it is a matter of respect, your brain, your intelligence to do with as you please.

N.B. I've not bothered with the retorts. But if you feel I've not addressed something, then please repost it and I'll answer by retrurn.

LOL, then let me blunt here. There is an old truism which you really should look into and it goes like this, "What we see in others, is only in ourselves."
 
Last edited:

footprints

Well-Known Member
Firstly, you say you're about to make a statement as per the OP, yet nothing that follows has anything to do with faith as epistemology. How is any of this relevant?

Secondly, if you want to make a case that christian faith is somehow 'special' please do so in your own thread.

LOL you tell them Satans_Serrated_Edge. Epistemolgical, intelligent idiots, are the only people who are allowed to give anything a definition. And if it doesn't agree with your own personal belief, it just has to be rubbish and garbage.

Faith is an integral part of attaining knowledge. We couldn't gain knowledge without it.
 

cottage

Well-Known Member
[/color][/font][/color]

LOL Descartes ended up in a sceptical position and knew there was no logical way out, so he did something else.

That is completely wrong, yet again! Descartes discovered a logical means to certain knowledge – and that is the very point of the Meditations! The method was to employ what he called his clear and distinct ideas, or the ‘pure light of reason’.


LOL I find your brain and the way it relates and associates fascinating.

LOL nobody but you has even remotely suggested he succeeded (albeit you did it in the negative sense that he failed), just that he has been the closest pertaining to epistemological argument. Epistemology hasn't succeeded and is still stuck in a flat earth mentality while the world has travelled on without them.

Squirming again, I see! And you’ve got it back to front, even using this hilarious example to make your point:
“In other words, Hume ended up in the position where Descartes started from, a position of knowledge, and Descartes ended up where Hume had started from, a sea of scepticism.”
A question for you: Descartes’ system failed and Hume’s analysis is broadly accepted; so how can it be true that: “Simply put Descartes has been about the closest to this knowledge than any other philosopher before or after”?
I’m sorry to have to say this, but you don’t seem to have much idea of what you’re talking about. You say ‘he has been the closest pertaining to epistemological argument’. But he was wrong; his foundational system was flawed, the notorious cogito is disputed, he employed circular reasoning, and he attempted to underpin his system by appealing to God, by using an inferior version of St Thomas’s cosmological argument to satisfy this requirement. The empiricists who came after Descartes argued not from an assumed God, or the idea of pure reason, but from experience. Hume’s conclusions were psychological, and even today, nearly two-hundred and fifty years on, critics can only peck at the outside of his arguments. Kant (Critique of Pure Reason) affirmed Hume’s view.


LOL many clever people are intellectual idiots.

Oh don’t be absurd. Descartes was not an intellectual idiot. He is in fact known worldwide as the ‘Father of modern philosophy’. In any case Descartes cannot be intellectually idiotic if you’re saying he was a very clever man and his intellectual offerings are the closest yet to any person to date down the path of epistemology [sic]!


LOL Everybody on the face of the earth has truth and experience. Both are perception based.

Everything is perception based, but what is 'truth'?

Waffle which doesn't align with reality and insults the very essence of scientific research.

A person cannot have a belief in something without believing in that something to a greater or lesser degree (probability). A person who considers the probability of aliens as zero has the belief that aliens do not exist and you would insult their intelligence if you tried to convince them that they did.

That’s a very silly statement altogether! What would count as zero probability for aliens not existing? If evidence exists for aliens, then aliens exist. The existence of aliens is possible (for there is nothing contradictory or absurd in thinking they are not), and so if the person thinks aliens are improbable then we must conclude that your evidence (whatever that may be) is plainly not convincing.

All beliefs are based on cause and effect, inductive reasoning and critical analysis of the data available, the normal human brain cannot work in any other way. If you are going to try and bring emotion into this, then I would suggest you use all human emotions including prejudice and bias which effects all epistemological argument.

Hooray! At last we are in agreement, as can be seen by the first part of that highlighted sentence. Now then, who was it that said: Hume’s analysis was ‘false’?


Belief that, belief in, what ridiculous premises, no wonder epistemology gets it so wrong. Your emotional reasoning is you agree with the epistemological dogma you are preaching here.

Here you are once more condemning things without offering any critical appraisal. Please explain what it is that you believe to be ridiculous?


No evidence should be dismissed, not even illogical epistemological argument, it should always be kept as knowledge and a reminder of where knowledge once came from and what we once believed.

And which epistemological argument is illogical?


When and if you can practice what you preach, I may reciprocate.

I answer your points as a matter of course. If I should miss something then put it to me again.
 

cottage

Well-Known Member
LOL all facts equal knowledge, I thought you would have known that basic bit of knowledge, looks like I was wrong.

LOL look I could explain, but I get more entertainment out of you answering things for me. I keep wondering what is your brain going to come up with next.

That was the answer I was expecting. And ‘all facts’ do not equal knowledge! Facts give us information; they do not give us certain knowledge. Nothing we know of this world is certain, other than tautologies and self-evident truths. We learn from experience, from information gained by the custom of associating one thing with another, and by reasoning from the past, not from self-evident premises or a priori truths. We use the term ‘to know’ in a general sense, but what is ‘knowing’ and how it possible to know what is true of experience? A number of epistemological theories have attempted to answer the question by various means from the most fanciful claims of innate ideas to psychological explanations that all knowledge arises from impressions of sense data. But neither philosophy nor science can give us the answer. However, the commonsense conclusion is that even though true knowledge may not be attainable our ability to reason from experience serves us well. So, back to Hume who concluded exactly that, but who said the objects of human enquiry can be divided into two sources, what he termed ‘the relation of ideas’ and matters of fact. The former comprise intuitive and necessary truths and the laws of thought (logic), by which we can correct our reasoning (although they do not give us new information about the world) and the latter, matters of fact, the contrary of which can never imply a contradiction. I say it is impossible to deny that argument.

And with that in mind, now is a convenient time to bring us back on track with the thread. So we reject universal scepticism, as that road leads us into solipsism, and we accept that experience teaches us things about the physical world, even if we can’t claim to know them as truths. But if the proposition ‘God exists’ cannot be demonstrated a priori, then what knowledge informs us of God if this supposed knowledge can come only from experience? The crucial point here is that we can only argue from inference, and it is evidently pure sophistry to argue from this world to some supposed other, on the basis that all worlds will be as this one. So if it is impossible to go beyond experience then the object of the inference must be entirely unknowable, in which case the object’s existence cannot be inferred from experience! God cannot therefore be known by faith.

Belief and faith are one in the same and are interchangeable words, else a person has faith (conviction) in their belief. Down scientific lines, faith is part and parcel of human intelligence and a prime trigger in the fight or flight mechanism.


You have been using the term ‘belief of faith’, which makes no sense. I’ve pointed out to you that the term, when it applies to religious conviction, is belief as faith, which means that no facts about the world are necessary to hold to the belief.

LOL, have you a multipersonality disorder, you keep referring to us. Which one of your personalities am I conversing with now? Or are you that insecure that you find safety in numbers?

<shrug> Either you are not aware that it is just a figure of speech, or you are just being amusing. In any case it is a non sequitur.

LOL the base facts of any knowledge is mum, mum, mum, mum, dad, dad, dad, dad, bub, bub, bub, bub, or any other similar words learned in blind faith as an infant child. An individuals knowledge base cannot start anywhere else and where all premises are built from. Genie Wiley a clasical example of what will and can happen if this blind faith value isn't triggered and the use it or lose it scenario comes into play.

However if you had followed up on the case studies of Genie Wiley, Oxana Malaya et al, and "Wild Child Syndrome," as you have previously been requested, I wouldn't have to spend so much time dealing with your perceptions.

I would say that as children we don’t begin with knowledge of mum and dad, and ‘facts that lead to ‘premises,’ but learn to associate words with objects, although language acquisition itself seems to be partly learned and partly innate (Chomsky?).

It’s not really my particular field and so I’m not at all familiar with the case of Genie or those studies you mention, but I’ve had a brief look on a couple of sites to see what it was all about. As I understand it she suffered thirteen cruel years of social and sensory deprivation and missed the so-called crucial developmental window. Apparently she did eventually learn words and was able to communicate, but did not acquire grammar. Interestingly the accounts I’ve read seem to skim over the fact that age twenty months and before the abuse began, she showed signs of ‘mental retardation’! Anyway, from my admittedly brief reading, I can’t seem to identify any notion of the ‘blind faith’ that you allude to? However, I have misty memories from my Piaget, Bowlby et al days at college that the heteronymous period concerning morality was said to run from something like 5 – 10 years, after which children began to question rules, rather than just accepting them from authority figures.

LOL. Just like the sun on the horizon, your brain is filled with many illusions, which you take on faith value, as absolute truth.


That sentence has nothing at all to do with what I wrote above! But anyway, what are these illusions, and how do you know they are illusions?


To start off with, science is an inanimate object, it is impossible for science to reveal anything, please try and stick to reality.

People in science reveal knowledge the same as any other person on earth, they either do this verbally, in writing et al.

If you mean by reveal as in uncover, people in science do this the same way as any other person in life, by association and relationship of knowledge accumulated to date. Or like the religious and many other examples in life such as industry, marketing, civil services such as law enforcement, fire services et al, by investigative research, experimentation and evaluation.

Science can be a very animated subject, and its practical application reveals all sorts of facts about the physical world. You said science reveals knowledge (of deities and religions): ‘The job of science is to uncover the knowledge of these base root cultures.’ But science cannot venture outside experience, and information gained through experience is simply information about the physical world and cannot give us knowledge of a deity.
 
Top