-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
How can the New Testament be even remotely correct?
- Thread starter Mathematician
- Start date
Quiddity
UndertheInfluenceofGiants
It baffles me that many atheist (not all) go thru great lengths to disprove the Bible and don't ask questions like "I wonder why so many men from all types of backgrounds, culture, language, countries, had a very similiar story?" If you want to say they have contradictions or whatever.....fine.. But why do some not hesitate to believe in UFO's even when the stories don't match....what's wrong with that picture?
~Victor
~Victor
Victor,Victor said:
Good points. The atheists are trying to disprove what they do not want to believe, to justify their position so that they can attain some level of peace within, although they know in their hearts it is really the truth they are trying to disprove...
Sabio
pandamonk
Active Member
so many mistakes in what you said.Sabio said:
It is not that we do not want to believe. It's that we do not see any reason to believe. It's that we see mistakes so cannot accept it as truth(because the mistakes indicate that it is false).Sabio said:
The reason we are atheists is because we are not theists, we do not believe in a god. If we knew in our hearts that a god existed we would not be atheist. The thing is we know in our hearts that it is impossible, as far as we can see, that a god exists.Sabio said:
Voxton
·
The bible is full of discrepancies, that cannot be explained away -- other than simply by stating "I don't believe that there are discrepancies" -- which is about as constructive in an open, genuine debate, as arguing, "I don't believe in gravity."Sabio said:
Secondly, you are making an assumption as to what people genuinely believe. This is always a huge mistake. It is a completely non-constructive, and downright destructive comment to make in any debate. I make no assumptions as to what you genuinely believe, other than what you state. If you say you believe in God, I take your word for it -- otherwise, there'd be no purpose whatsoever in debating you.
This is not a place for you to simply reaffirm your faith -- it is a place for debate, in good faith.
Absolutely not. I respect a well thought-out argument, and if you are capable of engaging in an intelligent and constructive debate, that I can learn something from, I will respect you. But when people come along with a bunch of incoherent, mindless claptrap -- guess what? I'm not going to respect that.jgallandt said:
Pah
Uber all member
Sabio said:
Victor said:
Actually, gentlemen, as you can not prove a truth of the Bible, why would we accept an unproven work. You just can't "transfer" faith.Sabio said:
It however does not have harmony on almost any level that is accepted by Christians
We know, Victor, that numbers of people can as easily believe a myth. The numbers makes no postive statement for any truth in the Bible
I for one, Sabio, have great peace of mind in disregarding the theology of the Bible. I find it a work of humans with it's only "proof" provided by your personal revelation mainly for your own personal benefit.
blueman
God's Warrior
I respect the beliefs of others because it is their free will to choose, whether they believe God gave them that free will or not. When I read the Bible, I do not hone in on any one verse to provide me with a full context of the message that the author is looking to articulate to the reader. I read whole chapters and books to validate the message in my mind and heart. Those who attempt to discredit the validity of the bible will focus on individual verses and contrast them with other authors in looking for discrepancies, without having a firm understanding of the message the author was relaying to the readers. Its fine to question the bible and there is no fault in that. In reference to the New Testament Gospels, the basic themes are this (1) Jesus, the Son of God came to earth in the flesh and ministered, taught and performed miracles; (2) He sought out a group of ordinary men from modest backgrounds to leave everything they had to follow Him; (3) He was chastised, rejected and condemned by the religious and affluent leaders of that day; (4) He was crucified and (5) He rose again and revealed Himself to His followers and other people. Why? The primary purpose was to redeem mankind through salvation offered by and through Jesus Christ. Even the most critical skeptic could acknowledge that.
There are claims and speculation that the Bible is nothing more than a book of fables, myths and fairy tales. If it is, it will go down as one of the most powerful hoaxes of all time. For what's it worth, people will acknowledge a fairy tale and/or fable for what it is, just that. We all know that Cinderella, Snow White and Seven Dwarfs and the like are fairy tale stories and acknowledged them as such. I am not sure opponents to the Bible came make a claim with any level of assurance in their minds. One of it's primary heroes, Jesus Christ and His teachings has had more impact on the religious, scholastic, literary (there are more books written about Jesus in the Library of Congress than any other historical figure), political (Declaration of Independence), humanitarian, musical and art culture than any other figure in history. That is quite a powerful impact and level of influence whom some would claim as just an ordinary man or worse, mythical figure. The Bible has had such sustainable power even in light of the fact that many people living in 1st century Palestine had every opportunity to dispute and discredit what the New Testament author's accounts during the period their writings were being circulated to the Jewish, Roman, Greek and other culture during that period. Although there were other writers and people with opposing views to the Bible during that time, none of their teachings or writings to dispute or discredit the Bible some 2000 years later have had any staying power or supplanted the Bible as the authorized Word of God.[/size]
There has been a lot of credit given to science and rightfully so in regard to many of the scientific discoveries and milestones over the centuries that have given us a better understanding of our earth, the universe and the lives that inhabit it. New medical breakthroughs and discoveries have been well documented over the years. One question remains to be unsolved, even by the most acknowledged intellectuals, both past and present. What facilitated these great discoveries? who gave man the mind and understanding to reach these great historical milestones. Should we just default to the belief that man, by his own power alone should be credited and even deified for these great achievements without any help from a higher being at all? Even the most honest skeptic would have to take a step back and ponder those questions.
There are claims and speculation that the Bible is nothing more than a book of fables, myths and fairy tales. If it is, it will go down as one of the most powerful hoaxes of all time. For what's it worth, people will acknowledge a fairy tale and/or fable for what it is, just that. We all know that Cinderella, Snow White and Seven Dwarfs and the like are fairy tale stories and acknowledged them as such. I am not sure opponents to the Bible came make a claim with any level of assurance in their minds. One of it's primary heroes, Jesus Christ and His teachings has had more impact on the religious, scholastic, literary (there are more books written about Jesus in the Library of Congress than any other historical figure), political (Declaration of Independence), humanitarian, musical and art culture than any other figure in history. That is quite a powerful impact and level of influence whom some would claim as just an ordinary man or worse, mythical figure. The Bible has had such sustainable power even in light of the fact that many people living in 1st century Palestine had every opportunity to dispute and discredit what the New Testament author's accounts during the period their writings were being circulated to the Jewish, Roman, Greek and other culture during that period. Although there were other writers and people with opposing views to the Bible during that time, none of their teachings or writings to dispute or discredit the Bible some 2000 years later have had any staying power or supplanted the Bible as the authorized Word of God.[/size]
There has been a lot of credit given to science and rightfully so in regard to many of the scientific discoveries and milestones over the centuries that have given us a better understanding of our earth, the universe and the lives that inhabit it. New medical breakthroughs and discoveries have been well documented over the years. One question remains to be unsolved, even by the most acknowledged intellectuals, both past and present. What facilitated these great discoveries? who gave man the mind and understanding to reach these great historical milestones. Should we just default to the belief that man, by his own power alone should be credited and even deified for these great achievements without any help from a higher being at all? Even the most honest skeptic would have to take a step back and ponder those questions.
tkdrocks
Mellowing with Age
Wow - assumptions on so many levels. I do not personally have anything against the Bible. I do have a problem with Bible literalists that want everyone to believe something that is written thousands of years ago. We skeptics attempt to demonstrate that it is merely words written by men.Victor said:
As far as people from different backgrounds having similar stories, would you make the same argument for Islam and the Koran - the fastest growing belief system in the world?
Who here has defended believers in UFO's. I must have missed that post.
You're absolutely right, the Bible is full of discrepancies, but that doesn't mean that it's all a lie. All it means is that its transcribers and translators weren't perfect. Have you ever played that game where you whisper into someone's ear and they pass the message along through a big line of people and you see how warped the message has become at the end? It's just like that, only over thousands of years. The Bible is the word of God so long as it is translated correctly. We currently do not have a 100% correct translation of the Bible today, but we come pretty close. That's why prophets and apostles are necessary today.Voxton said:
Voxton
·
You are quite right. Transcriptions and translations have added mistakes to the bible, but there are mistakes in it, that had nothing to do with these later efforts. There are self-contradictions in the bible, that were there from the start.dan said:
This is not evidence that the bible is false, or that the religions based on it are -- but it is evidence that the bible isn't infallible, and thus wasn't written by, or inspired by God.
It is a man made, flawed creation.
blueman
God's Warrior
One thing you have never adressed in the fact that the message of Jesus and the purpose He came to earth for is infallible and there is no deviation from that fact in any of the scriptures, both Old and New Testament. He facilitated this message through the authorsover the course of the 1500 period that the Old and New Testament was written. I would say that is God-inspired and the fact that it is sustaining today adds credibility to that fact. Books that have dramatically altered or deviated signifigantly from the message of the scriptures were written hundreds of years after the Holy Bible was in circulation.Voxton said:
Scott1
Well-Known Member
I don't know how you came to that conclusion.... Jews sure would not agree that the NT did not deviate from the OT message.blueman said:
You also can't be sure of what the "message" actually was... the Bible is not clear... 20,000+ "Bible only" Protestant denominations are proof enough of that.
10,000 years from now the Koran will still be the same... the length of Bible circulation is by no means conclusive "evidence" of anything.
Quiddity
UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Assumptions? tkdrocks, I hope you don't think that was directed at you. That was a general statement based on many atheist at my work, TV (The show Sightingstkdrocks said:
), and that I chat with. That is why I noted "not all". My point to that was to show that for some atheist it is not because of "absence of belief" but rather something deeply personal within them. What that is I have no idea and may differ from atheist to atheist. I wouldn't even try that with the Bible nevertheless with the Koran. I hope you don't think that is what I was trying to do.
Who here said that someone was defending.......
~Victor
AMEN Blueman!blueman said:I respect the beliefs of others because it is their free will to choose, whether they believe God gave them that free will or not. When I read the Bible, I do not hone in on any one verse to provide me with a full context of the message that the author is looking to articulate to the reader. I read whole chapters and books to validate the message in my mind and heart. Those who attempt to discredit the validity of the bible will focus on individual verses and contrast them with other authors in looking for discrepancies, without having a firm understanding of the message the author was relaying to the readers. Its fine to question the bible and there is no fault in that. In reference to the New Testament Gospels, the basic themes are this (1) Jesus, the Son of God came to earth in the flesh and ministered, taught and performed miracles; (2) He sought out a group of ordinary men from modest backgrounds to leave everything they had to follow Him; (3) He was chastised, rejected and condemned by the religious and affluent leaders of that day; (4) He was crucified and (5) He rose again and revealed Himself to His followers and other people. Why? The primary purpose was to redeem mankind through salvation offered by and through Jesus Christ. Even the most critical skeptic could acknowledge that.
There are claims and speculation that the Bible is nothing more than a book of fables, myths and fairy tales. If it is, it will go down as one of the most powerful hoaxes of all time. For what's it worth, people will acknowledge a fairy tale and/or fable for what it is, just that. We all know that Cinderella, Snow White and Seven Dwarfs and the like are fairy tale stories and acknowledged them as such. I am not sure opponents to the Bible came make a claim with any level of assurance in their minds. One of it's primary heroes, Jesus Christ and His teachings has had more impact on the religious, scholastic, literary (there are more books written about Jesus in the Library of Congress than any other historical figure), political (Declaration of Independence), humanitarian, musical and art culture than any other figure in history. That is quite a powerful impact and level of influence whom some would claim as just an ordinary man or worse, mythical figure. The Bible has had such sustainable power even in light of the fact that many people living in 1st century Palestine had every opportunity to dispute and discredit what the New Testament author's accounts during the period their writings were being circulated to the Jewish, Roman, Greek and other culture during that period. Although there were other writers and people with opposing views to the Bible during that time, none of their teachings or writings to dispute or discredit the Bible some 2000 years later have had any staying power or supplanted the Bible as the authorized Word of God.[/size]
There has been a lot of credit given to science and rightfully so in regard to many of the scientific discoveries and milestones over the centuries that have given us a better understanding of our earth, the universe and the lives that inhabit it. New medical breakthroughs and discoveries have been well documented over the years. One question remains to be unsolved, even by the most acknowledged intellectuals, both past and present. What facilitated these great discoveries? who gave man the mind and understanding to reach these great historical milestones. Should we just default to the belief that man, by his own power alone should be credited and even deified for these great achievements without any help from a higher being at all? Even the most honest skeptic would have to take a step back and ponder those questions.
Scott,Scott1 said:Ya know Bob... every time I try to add some reason and logic to a thread like this.... someone like Sabio comes along and flushes it right down the tubes... oh well.
Have fun with this one gang.
As a Catholic you should be well aquainted with these verses from the Catholic Bible:
1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness, but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1 Corinthians 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
Scott, Reason and logic are inferior to the wisdom of God, they do not penetrate to the soul of man like the word of God.
Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Sabio
Scott1
Well-Known Member
Well geee... thanks for the sermon....Sabio said:
I'm happy you feel that way... I do as well... but we're not here to give personal testimony... you are in a discussion with people who don't have faith in God and the best you can do is "You may not be sure, but I am".... again... fabulous... but don't think this holier-than-thou rhetoric will help you explain your faith to anyone.blueman said:When it comes to the message of the gospel, it is totally clear, i don't care how many times the Bible has been translated inot other languages. There is no ambiguity in that regard. You may not be sure, but I am according to my beliefs. That will not waver.
Good luck.
Scott