Believers : God doesn't exist?

dtackett said:

You're asserting that death is not a necessary part of life and that any suffering is needless. If you never suffered for an overeating problem, everyone would most likely be dying of obesity and heartattacks at age 20...

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You fail to take into account the power of omnipotence, which is a very important premise to all this. If God exists and can do anything, then that renders suffering needless. He has the power to alleviate all suffering. He can cure obesity and heart attacks. It is also a fact that not everyone suffers equally, and that calls into question God's fairness. Finally, let us not forget that the whole point is to get us into an everlasting existence in which there is zero suffering--none at all. If God has the power to eliminate suffering for eternity, then surely he has the power to eliminate it on Earth.

...I know theese people had little choice in what happened to them, but maybe in the greater scheme of a universe where humanity is a small fraction of a percent (instead of the center) there could have been a need for their death. It is tragic for some of us, but it isn't without need or design because it saddens us.

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Again, consider the plausibility of what you are saying. Different people experience different levels of suffering. If suffering is needed for some reason, then why do some have to experience unbearable levels of suffering, but others do not? If God has some ulterior motive for making some suffer more than others, what could that possibly be? Many, if not most, religious people actually view the disparity as God lacking the grace to alleviate it in others. ("There but for the grace of God go I...") When people avoid death in a natural disaster such as the Haiti quake, it is quite common to hear them explain their good fortune in terms of God's actions. But what does that say about the people who were less fortunate? That God didn't favor them as much?

LittleNipper said:

An earthquake is a reminder of the FLOOD, whose effects are still being felt to this very day. ANd the FLOOD is ultimately the result of the FALL of man. It is only GOD who keeps us from blowing each other up and the world from falling apart.

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Actually, it is religious belief that helps to fuel some of our acts of blowing each other up, and there is no evidence at all that the FLOOD ever happened. It is a biblical myth that may have been inspired by one or more disastrous local floods in antiquity. (The Sumerians and Akkadians, who originated the FLOOD myth that appears in the Bible, experienced some catastrophic floods in their history.)

LittleNipper said:

Who says suffering is needless? In a world with suffering and the dire need for help, there are still stupid people who somehow feel that they don't need an omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent GOD to help. One can only imagine what those people would be like if everything was perfect in a fallen world...

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Your argument makes no sense. The question is why suffering must exist if God is omnipotent, omniscient, and benevolent. Atheists do not argue that we don't need such a God. They argue that such a God is incompatible with the fact of apparent needless suffering. If you consider the suffering necessary, then you need to explain what would make it necessary. For example, what makes the suffering of a rape victim necessary? What makes the suffering of an earthquake victim necessary? Calling people who lack faith stupid does not answer those questions.

Copernicus said:

You fail to take into account the power of omnipotence, which is a very important premise to all this. If God exists and can do anything, then that renders suffering needless. He has the power to alleviate all suffering. He can cure obesity and heart attacks. It is also a fact that not everyone suffers equally, and that calls into question God's fairness. Finally, let us not forget that the whole point is to get us into an everlasting existence in which there is zero suffering--none at all. If God has the power to eliminate suffering for eternity, then surely he has the power to eliminate it on Earth.

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And to my account he did create a world free of suffering, in Eden. Our lack of trust in his plan is what drove us out of his presence, thus allowing us to suffer. We suffer to learn to trust. Those who trust in God don't see it as suffering in people I've spoken with. A lot of Christians pray for healing and forgiveness, justice and freedom from suffering. They should be praying for understanding, IMO. They're obviously seeing from selfish wants and not from the selflessness of God and his sacrifice.

Copernicus said:

Again, consider the plausibility of what you are saying. Different people experience different levels of suffering. If suffering is needed for some reason, then why do some have to experience unbearable levels of suffering, but others do not? If God has some ulterior motive for making some suffer more than others, what could that possibly be? Many, if not most, religious people actually view the disparity as God lacking the grace to alleviate it in others. ("There but for the grace of God go I...") When people avoid death in a natural disaster such as the Haiti quake, it is quite common to hear them explain their good fortune in terms of God's actions. But what does that say about the people who were less fortunate? That God didn't favor them as much?

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God lacks no grace in my view, people lack the insight into God's design to see his grace. They use selfish wants and desires to cloud their perspective, I myself have been guilty ftom time to time.

Copernicus said:

Actually, it is religious belief that helps to fuel some of our acts of blowing each other up, and there is no evidence at all that the FLOOD ever happened. It is a biblical myth that may have been inspired by one or more disastrous local floods in antiquity. (The Sumerians and Akkadians, who originated the FLOOD myth that appears in the Bible, experienced some catastrophic floods in their history.)

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I agree that the biblical flood of everything being washed away is suspect. It's much more likely that everything he could see was flooded. It doesn't negate the point that it was an example to Noah of the sin in his area. A lot of biblical "miracle" have been explained by science, but that doesn't lessen the effect on the individual of that time.

Copernicus said:

Your argument makes no sense. The question is why suffering must exist if God is omnipotent, omniscient, and benevolent. Atheists do not argue that we don't need such a God. They argue that such a God is incompatible with the fact of apparent needless suffering. If you consider the suffering necessary, then you need to explain what would make it necessary. For example, what makes the suffering of a rape victim necessary? What makes the suffering of an earthquake victim necessary? Calling people who lack faith stupid does not answer those questions.

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Rape is a human act and is a series of consequences steming from original sin and the fall of man. What seems to be lacking in your view is personal accountability. Mankind doesn't see God so he acts on his/her own and usually to the detriment of his fellow man/woman. Natural disasters are only disaster to those who witness them. The Earth moves and breathes and reacts to our influences. One man's volcano is another man's island.

Haven't had time to read the whole topic, so I apologize if I'm repeating something.

Sometimes death isn't a bad thing. Sometimes, in countries such as Haiti, being released from the everyday suffering from living in such a country can be a good thing. That certainly gives me hope that God was looking out for them.

Silver said:

This is mainly directed at believers in God.

After the Haiti earthquake in which 220,000 people lost their lives through no fault of their own, does your God not exist?
If your God exists how could he allow that to happen?
Have you lost your faith?

Silver

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Death ultimately is caused by the sin committed by the first man Adam. "That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned." (Romans 5:12) The Bible promises that God will soon bring an end to death, along with the suffering we experience today. Revelations 21:4 promises "And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”
In the meantime, people will continue to die tragically from a variety of causes. None of these deaths are caused by God. God does not stop death now because it is not yet his appointed time to do so. Many deaths are caused by wicked people, or the selfish acts of greedy ones who put money above other's safety and welfare.
Those who die will, under God's rulership (Daniel 2:44), be brought back to life in a world without Adamic death. (Acts 24:15).
Actually, an increase in earthquakes and other disasters are part of the sign Jesus gave that would indicate that the time for God to take over rulership of the earth is at hand. (Matthew 24:7)
So for those with faith in the Bible, such disasters do not weaken their faith. Sad and distressing as death is, we take comfort that soon all causes for sorrow will be removed by our loving God, Jehovah through the kingdom of his Son, Jesus Christ.(Matthew 25:34-46).

dtackett said:

And to my account he did create a world free of suffering, in Eden. Our lack of trust in his plan is what drove us out of his presence, thus allowing us to suffer. We suffer to learn to trust. Those who trust in God don't see it as suffering in people I've spoken with. A lot of Christians pray for healing and forgiveness, justice and freedom from suffering. They should be praying for understanding, IMO. They're obviously seeing from selfish wants and not from the selflessness of God and his sacrifice.

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God has sacrificed nothing. He has everything he will ever want or need. It is impossible for an omnipotent being to face an obstacle of any kind, since that would mean it wasn't omnipotent in the first place. And he knew that he wasn't creating a world free of suffering, if he knew that he would not be trusted by his creations and he would make them suffer in the end. If he didn't know, he wasn't omniscient. If he did, then he wasn't benevolent.

God lacks no grace in my view, people lack the insight into God's design to see his grace. They use selfish wants and desires to cloud their perspective, I myself have been guilty ftom time to time.

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OK, but you failed to address the point of uneven suffering. Do you believe that people who suffer more than you are somehow less deserving of good fortune than you? Does God believe that? Also, you failed to address the point that some suffering is caused by natural disasters, which are not the result of bad behavior. That is why we sometimes call them "acts of God".

I agree that the biblical flood of everything being washed away is suspect. It's much more likely that everything he could see was flooded. It doesn't negate the point that it was an example to Noah of the sin in his area. A lot of biblical "miracle" have been explained by science, but that doesn't lessen the effect on the individual of that time.

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But this is a clear case where the Bible associates an "act of God" with sin. There are plenty of other places. Do you think that it was fair for God to kill all those people out of anger? Noah appeared to think that that was the whole point of the flood. Would a merciful God commit mass murder?

Rape is a human act and is a series of consequences steming from original sin and the fall of man. What seems to be lacking in your view is personal accountability. Mankind doesn't see God so he acts on his/her own and usually to the detriment of his fellow man/woman.

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Again, I get the impression that you have not thought very critically about this. How does Original Sin justify permitting people to rape innocent people? Or do you believe that rape victims deserve their suffering as penance for their own sinful nature? Of course, the rapist is accountable and will ultimately face punishment, according to mainstream Christian doctrines. But what accounts for delaying the punishment and letting the rape take place? Human authorities would stop a rape in progress. Is God not as decent as normal human beings?

...Natural disasters are only disaster to those who witness them. The Earth moves and breathes and reacts to our influences. One man's volcano is another man's island.

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Natural disasters are disasters to everyone who suffers death or injury or loves those who suffer from them. At this point, you seem to be saying that human behavior somehow influences those disasters, so I suppose that you are attributing them to God's intervention. If so, then God is actually intervening in our affairs to cause us suffering. That is inconsistent with the belief that he is benevolent.

Arkholt said:

Sometimes death isn't a bad thing. Sometimes, in countries such as Haiti, being released from the everyday suffering from living in such a country can be a good thing. That certainly gives me hope that God was looking out for them.

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Really? Are you saying that everyone who died in the Haiti quake was blessed by relief from "everyday suffering"? There are a couple of problems with that reasoning. One is that not everyone died, and you have yet to explain how the suffering of the living was justified. Secondly, if not every single person who died was not really a victim of "everyday suffering from living in such a country", then you still have the problem of explaining the rationale for those deaths. The problem is that you seem to be saying that God looks out for some and not for others.

No you are misunderstanding my point. Please allow me to rephrase. I don't define sin as an act. Sin, IMO, is a choice for selfish wants in direct opposition to God's will. We suffer continuously from Adamic sin because we can not intellectually escape the cycle of doubt, define, accept. That is the main proponent as to why faith is required in Christianity.
From a Christian perspective, God did sacrifice his son. He understands human suffering through the trancendence of Jesus. As far as uneven suffering, you're asking if people are somehow less deserving of good fortune than you? No fortune is for those who live in this world and I don't even want it. If people perceive me as being more fortunate, that's their perception. I feel none are worthy of good fortune unless they can seperate themselves from sin, which for me doesn't happen nearly as often as I like. The only suffering I see when I look aound the world are people choosing against God's plan, which is self inflicted.
If you would like to go over Epicurious' arguement then I'd be more than happy to. I wouldn't say God is benevolent, he is. That's not the same as the goddidit arguement. If you are an absolute, you can only be yourself, there is no duality within yourself. Benevolent would connotate a give and take scenario, when I feel God only gives and we refuse to take in most instances.
I don't feel humans can contribute directly to natural disasters, or even more than a minor anomaly. Natural disasters themselves are typically the work of our planet to attain balance.
Original sin doesn't justify rape. We do not live lives in line with God's plan, this leads to a society getting built where theese things happen. It's horrible and tragic, but all personally accountable to the person commiting the acts, and their skewed view of reality. That skewed reality is sometimes caused from a defunct society lacking in accountability, justice, balance and reason. Victims unfortunately are also a necessity in this type of society. There are no victimless crimes.