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Believers : God doesn't exist?

Wandered Off

Wandered Off

Sporadic Driveby Member
Evandr said:
In the great and grand scheme of things the time will come when we will all stand at the judgment seat of God where our final station in the eternities will be determined.
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If indeed we are eternal beings, how is it anything besides cruel to force us into a "final station?" The time after this supposed event eventually will completely dwarf the time before. It seems inconceivable that some of us would not change our minds and wish to try other stations for a while. We are, after all, dynamic beings. Why would our free will in this regard be yanked away from that point forward?

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...ates/52078-heaven-hell-gated-communities.html
 
Evandr

Evandr

Stripling Warrior
Wandered Off said:
If indeed we are eternal beings, how is it anything besides cruel to force us into a "final station?" The time after this supposed event eventually will completely dwarf the time before. It seems inconceivable that some of us would not change our minds and wish to try other stations for a while. We are, after all, dynamic beings. Why would our free will in this regard be yanked away from that point forward?

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...ates/52078-heaven-hell-gated-communities.html
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Nobody is forcing anybody into anything; we are all simply given experiences by which we will choose how to respond.

Try not to focus on this one event. Life is full of great, grand, and wonderful events also. Should not self-serving anger toward God for tragedy be balanced by gratitude toward God for all that is good in life. Why is it so easy to forget about the joy when being puffed up with anger about the pain.

Final Station is a necessary part or order and progress, and growth of the whole. Every person will be given to the realm for which they are best suited even if that means being shut out completely as is Lucifer. We are all connected and thusly order must prevail for progress to be realized.



We have spent millennia becoming who we are and any more time will avail us nothing. Our character is set by the time we get to the judgment seat and the justice of our final station will be perfect. Remember it is not just about the individual it is about us all together and how we interact. Eternity is all about the potential for growth. If a person proves that their character cannot be sufficiently developed to handle the power and glory that can be afforded to them by God with perfect justice and equity then they shall not receive it, it's just that simple. You should be eternally thankful for that reality because it is the founding principle by which God is who He is and not something less. Words cannot tell what the state of existence would be if this were not the truth.

Our Heavenly Father's greatest gift to us is our free agency and our gift back to Him is how we use it. We determine our own fate, being at the judgment seat of God is simply the mechanism by which the condition of that fate is exposed and then realized.
 
Mr Cheese

Mr Cheese

Well-Known Member
Wandered Off said:
If indeed we are eternal beings, how is it anything besides cruel to force us into a "final station?" The time after this supposed event eventually will completely dwarf the time before. It seems inconceivable that some of us would not change our minds and wish to try other stations for a while. We are, after all, dynamic beings. Why would our free will in this regard be yanked away from that point forward?

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...ates/52078-heaven-hell-gated-communities.html
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do you have a walker?

0511-0812-2901-5536_Spry_Old_Woman_Running_With_a_Walker_clipart_image.jpg
 
Wandered Off

Wandered Off

Sporadic Driveby Member
Evandr said:
Nobody is forcing anybody into anything; we are all simply given experiences by which we will choose how to respond.
Click to expand...
If a station is "final" that implies we can't change our mind and choose a different station later. If we chose the final station, then our free will to do so ends. I suspect many of us wouldn't want anything final eternally, so a final station would have to be imposed by force.
Try not to focus on this one event.
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If at any point in eternity we are not happy with our "final station," how would we not focus on this one event that can never be undone due to free will removal?
Final Station is a necessary part or order and progress, and growth of the whole.
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Finality by definition is a limit to growth.
If a person proves that their character cannot be sufficiently developed to handle the power and glory that can be afforded to them by God with perfect justice and equity then they shall not receive it, it's just that simple.
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With eternity to work with, it seems to me anything is possible with respect to development.
Our Heavenly Father's greatest gift to us is our free agency...
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Which is summarily yanked in this final station scenario...
 
Evandr

Evandr

Stripling Warrior
Wandered Off said:
If a station is "final" that implies we can't change our mind and choose a different station later. If we chose the final station, then our free will to do so ends. I suspect many of us wouldn't want anything final eternally, so a final station would have to be imposed by force.
If at any point in eternity we are not happy with our "final station," how would we not focus on this one event that can never be undone due to free will removal?
Finality by definition is a limit to growth.
With eternity to work with, it seems to me anything is possible with respect to development.
Which is summarily yanked in this final station scenario...
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According to your logic, Lucifer can be redeemed and become worthy to receive all that the Father has if given enough time. You seem to be fixated on the belief that someone can change beyond their ability to change but that is simply not true. We spent millennia preparing to be all that we can be and now the time for preparation is past. God cannot and will not force us to become something other than what we have given ourselves to be with respect to our character. There comes a time when changing who and what we have become is like a horse deciding to become a groundhog, it's just not possible.
This mortal probation is a time of testing to prove to us what God already knows, that is why final judgment will be perfect, leaving the individual without question or the ability to argue the decision.

Final destination is not a place where someone is cast into it is the place where ones forward progress is halted because they are not capable of receiving anything further. We cannot simply change our mind, the ability to change is past because no further change is possible, eternity or not. I'm not claiming to understand the fine points of why some can and will progress further than others but that is the reality and to point a finger of scorn at God for something that justice demands is glaringly thoughtless.
The only ones who will truly be cast out are those who cannot abide any degree of glory, they being Lucifer and his followers.


What you are trying to do is claim that a person who chains themselves to a wall with chains that cannot be loosed has a right to blame another person for their own lack of ability to move forward, it's nobody’s doing but their own and it is they who will remorse the decision that they made.

To believe any other way is to say that this whole plan is pointless, that all God should do is "cut to the chase", replicate himself and call it all good.
 
Wandered Off

Wandered Off

Sporadic Driveby Member
Evandr said:
I'm not claiming to understand the fine points of why some can and will progress further than others but that is the reality and to point a finger of scorn at God for something that justice demands is glaringly thoughtless.
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Just to clarify, I am not pointing "a finger of scorn at God." I am simply questioning the notion that justice would demand some kind of "final state" if we are eternal and dynamic beings. Just the opposite would be true IMO. I don't think that came from God, so my "finger of scorn" is pointed at the idea itself, a human creation.
 
Evandr

Evandr

Stripling Warrior
Wandered Off said:
Just to clarify, I am not pointing "a finger of scorn at God." I am simply questioning the notion that justice would demand some kind of "final state" if we are eternal and dynamic beings. Just the opposite would be true IMO. I don't think that came from God, so my "finger of scorn" is pointed at the idea itself, a human creation.
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My apologies, I did not mean to imply such a thing about you personally, I am quite sure your questions are sincere, it's just that so many people do point a finger of scorn. As for us being dynamic beings, that is true but there comes a time when the limitations we impost on ourselves can stifle our dynamic character wherein we rob ourselves of the ability to change and grow. Being dynamic without adhearing to the rules associated with dynamic growth renders a dynamic character of limited potential.
As I said before, we spent mellennia working our dynamic character to the limits of its premortal potential, a potential that is now fixed, if it were not so than the time for testing would not be here. I do not believe that our Heavenly Father would place someone into mortality before they had reached the pinnical of their premortal ability to progress. Mortality is where we are tested and postmortal existence is where we reap what we sowed during those millennia.
 
F

funkyhomedawg

New Member
I am an athiest, but I am curious as to why buy into the belief that your God is caring god.

First of all, you generally argue that all evil in this world is man created and as a result of the devil acting out in men. But there is a lot of bad stuff that happens that is completely out of man's power, i.e. Haiti's earthquake.

If the earthquake at Haiti truly is an "act of God", they why would God create such suffering for all of those people. That doesn't seem like a loving God to me.

Another point I'd like to bring up is the parents who receive a mentally ill baby. They did not choose to have the suffering baby, but God simply decided he wanted to add pain to the family. If God creates everything with a purpose, what purpose does this baby serve but to invoke suffering on the mentally stable, rational parents? That doesn't seem like a caring God and if I did believe in God, I wouldn't like him. What good God would create purposeful harm on good people? That's not a loving God and I don't know why you buy it. THINK!
 
Willamena

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
funkyhomedawg said:
I am an athiest, but I am curious as to why buy into the belief that your God is caring god.
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Because I care.

funkyhomedawg said:
First of all, you generally argue that all evil in this world is man created and as a result of the devil acting out in men. But there is a lot of bad stuff that happens that is completely out of man's power, i.e. Haiti's earthquake.

If the earthquake at Haiti truly is an "act of God", they why would God create such suffering for all of those people. That doesn't seem like a loving God to me.

Another point I'd like to bring up is the parents who receive a mentally ill baby. They did not choose to have the suffering baby, but God simply decided he wanted to add pain to the family. If God creates everything with a purpose, what purpose does this baby serve but to invoke suffering on the mentally stable, rational parents? That doesn't seem like a caring God and if I did believe in God, I wouldn't like him. What good God would create purposeful harm on good people? That's not a loving God and I don't know why you buy it. THINK!
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Good thing I'm not "general".
 
Riverwolf

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
funkyhomedawg said:
I am an athiest, but I am curious as to why buy into the belief that your God is caring god.

First of all, you generally argue that all evil in this world is man created and as a result of the devil acting out in men. But there is a lot of bad stuff that happens that is completely out of man's power, i.e. Haiti's earthquake.

If the earthquake at Haiti truly is an "act of God", they why would God create such suffering for all of those people. That doesn't seem like a loving God to me.

Another point I'd like to bring up is the parents who receive a mentally ill baby. They did not choose to have the suffering baby, but God simply decided he wanted to add pain to the family. If God creates everything with a purpose, what purpose does this baby serve but to invoke suffering on the mentally stable, rational parents? That doesn't seem like a caring God and if I did believe in God, I wouldn't like him. What good God would create purposeful harm on good people? That's not a loving God and I don't know why you buy it. THINK!
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I do. A lot.

I have come to the conclusion that the parents you speak of, indeed, are smart and mentally stable, but also have the very common and problematic viewpoint of being the microcosm of the universe, and through the nine months of pregnancy, they always knew that their child would be a GENIUS! They didn't realize at the time that having a baby later in life causes an increased risk of mental illnesses like autism, because they thought "it's not going to happen to ME."

(You never gave further specifications for your scenario.)

I don't believe God to be an external dictator-puppet master pulling the universe's strings. I'm a pantheist: God is everything. The laws of physics are included in the laws of God. Science is the domain of the material world, and I'll sooner trust modern scientists over ancient sages, though wise they may have been in their day.

You tell us to think. Great. Thinking is important. I tell you to not over-generalize and assume that all theists follow men like Pat Robinson, as not all of us do; in fact, most of us don't.
 
logician

logician

Well-Known Member
The incident in Haiti again proves that an omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent god cannot exist, because it would stop needless suffering.
 
D

dtackett

Member
logician said:
The incident in Haiti again proves that an omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent god cannot exist, because it would stop needless suffering.
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You're asserting that death is not a necessary part of life and that any suffering is needless. If you never suffered for an overeating problem, everyone would most likely be dying of obesity and heartattacks at age 20.I know theese people had little choice in what happened to them, but maybe in the greater scheme of a universe where humanity is a small fraction of a percent (instead of the center) there could have been a need for their death. It is tragic for some of us, but it isn't without need or design because it saddens us.
 
L

LittleNipper

Well-Known Member
funkyhomedawg said:
I am an athiest, but I am curious as to why buy into the belief that your God is caring god.

First of all, you generally argue that all evil in this world is man created and as a result of the devil acting out in men. But there is a lot of bad stuff that happens that is completely out of man's power, i.e. Haiti's earthquake.

If the earthquake at Haiti truly is an "act of God", they why would God create such suffering for all of those people. That doesn't seem like a loving God to me.

Another point I'd like to bring up is the parents who receive a mentally ill baby. They did not choose to have the suffering baby, but God simply decided he wanted to add pain to the family. If God creates everything with a purpose, what purpose does this baby serve but to invoke suffering on the mentally stable, rational parents? That doesn't seem like a caring God and if I did believe in God, I wouldn't like him. What good God would create purposeful harm on good people? That's not a loving God and I don't know why you buy it. THINK!
Click to expand...

An earthquake is a reminder of the FLOOD, whose effects are still being felt to this very day. ANd the FLOOD is ultimately the result of the FALL of man. It is only GOD who keeps us from blowing each other up and the world from falling apart.
 
L

LittleNipper

Well-Known Member
logician said:
The incident in Haiti again proves that an omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent god cannot exist, because it would stop needless suffering.
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Who says suffering is needless? In a world with suffering and the dire need for help, there are still stupid people who somehow feel that they don't need an omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent GOD to help. One can only imagine what those people would be like if everything was perfect in a fallen world...
 
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