Is there a big debate?

I've heard many people say that there is a big debate between Evolution and ID happening right now, but is this true? Is the debate as big as I have heard, is it even a debate at all? Furthermore, is the discussion between the ToE and ID a debate or is it whether ID should be taught in schools or not the true debate?

If you look around there are a lot of evolution vs creation or ID forums out there, so sure there is a debate. If you are asking whether there is a debate in the public arena, yes you can look at Texas to see how it is panning out. Basically it is time to teach the problems with evolution along with the theory.

Man of Faith said:

If you look around there are a lot of evolution vs creation or ID forums out there, so sure there is a debate. If you are asking whether there is a debate in the public arena, yes you can look at Texas to see how it is panning out. Basically it is time to teach the problems with evolution along with the theory.

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The problem is MoF, 999 of every 1000 people who are qualified to make assertions on the matter think that there isn't any problem to teach.

""99.9 percent of scientists accept evolution"[11] whereas intelligent design has been rejected by the overwhelming majority of the scientific community" - Brian Alters, McGill University.

MSizer said:

The problem is MoF, 999 of every 1000 people who are qualified to make assertions on the matter think that there isn't any problem to teach.

""99.9 percent of scientists accept evolution"[11] whereas intelligent design has been rejected by the overwhelming majority of the scientific community" - Brian Alters, McGill University.

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Ah! It's not 100%. Gotcha there.

nonbeliever_92 said:

I've heard many people say that there is a big debate between Evolution and ID happening right now, but is this true? Is the debate as big as I have heard, is it even a debate at all? Furthermore, is the discussion between the ToE and ID a debate or is it whether ID should be taught in schools or not the true debate?

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There is no debate among people who actually understand evolutionary theory. As to what the true debate is, essentially, all variances of the debate come back to those who mistakenly fear that evolutionary theory is somehow in the business of disproving the existence of their chosen deity.

Man of Faith said:

If you look around there are a lot of evolution vs creation or ID forums out there, so sure there is a debate. If you are asking whether there is a debate in the public arena, yes you can look at Texas to see how it is panning out. Basically it is time to teach the problems with evolution along with the theory.

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This again points to my OP the debate isn't between ID and Evolution is it? It's between whether ID or evolution should be taught in the classroom, n'est-ce pas? \

What problems with Evolution do you propse be taught in school?

Man of Faith said:

If you look around there are a lot of evolution vs creation or ID forums out there, so sure there is a debate. If you are asking whether there is a debate in the public arena, yes you can look at Texas to see how it is panning out. Basically it is time to teach the problems with evolution along with the theory.

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Speaking of Texas....

McLeroy booted in Texas

In the March 2, 2010, primary election, avowed young-earth creationist Don McLeroy narrowly lost his bid to be the Republican candidate for the District 9 seat on the Texas state board of education. As the Dallas Morning News (March 3, 2010) reported, "The fiercely contested race pitted McLeroy, a dentist from College Station and member of the board’s social conservative bloc, against [Thomas] Ratliff, a legislative consultant and son of former Lt. Gov. Bill Ratliff," who is viewed as likely to side with the moderates on the board. There is no Democratic candidate for the seat, so Ratliff is expected to be elected in November 2010.
Originally elected to the board in 1998, McLeroy was persistently determined to undermine the treatment of evolution in Texas's public schools. During the debate over biology textbook adoption in 2003, he was one of the four members of the board who misused the state science standards to oppose adopting the eleven textbooks under consideration. His attacks on science education — including his endorsement of a book that described parents who want their children to learn about evolution as "monsters" — were in part responsible for the state senate's refusal to confirm him as chair of the board in May 2009, as NCSE previously reported.
McLeroy's assault on evolution came to a head during a meeting of the board in March 2009 when he declaimed, in a now notorious moment, "Somebody's got to stand up to experts!" (Video is available on NCSE's YouTube channel.) Unfortunately, a majority of the board did so, voting to amend the Texas state science standards to add a requirement that students examine "all sides of scientific evidence" and to add or amend various standards in a way that encourages the presentation of creationist claims about the complexity of the cell, the completeness of the fossil record, and the age of the universe.
The board's revisions to the standards were widely deplored, with the head of the White House Office of Science and Technology describing it as "a step backward" and the Austin American-Statesman (April 1, 2009) editorially complaining, "Don McLeroy, Dunbar and others have turned the education board into a national joke. But when it comes to teaching Texas children, what they have done is not funny." But McLeroy was unabashed. "Our science standards are light years ahead of any other state when it comes to challenging evolution," he told the Washington Monthly (January/February 2010), adding, "Evolution is hooey."
McLeroy booted in Texas | NCSE

nonbeliever_92 said:

I've heard many people say that there is a big debate between Evolution and ID happening right now, but is this true? Is the debate as big as I have heard, is it even a debate at all? Furthermore, is the discussion between the ToE and ID a debate or is it whether ID should be taught in schools or not the true debate?

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On the evolution side, I think it's a purely political debate. The facts of evolution and the ToE are firmly settled, and now it's just a matter of combatting those who want to inject creationism into schools and the like.

On the creation side, I think there's two components:

- the "grassroots": I think the majority of people engaged in the political debate for the creationist side really do think that they're debating the truth of the theory itself.

- the leadership: I think that those at the top of the creationist side and driving it on (e.g. the Discovery Institute and its ilk) do know what they're doing, do know what the science says, and are being less than honest in their approach: they portray themselves as debating the factual issues, when they actually realize that the true debate is purely political.

One could look at Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed, and see that the debate is quite ridiculous.

As with what others are saying, there is a debate. It is not necessarily on whether or not evolution is correct (which, from every debate on the subject I have seen, IDers or creationists simply get slaughtered) it is more as to whether or not ID, which if one looks at the people promoting it, it is clearly another way of getting religion into the classroom, should be taught in school.

Rationally, there should be no debate; however, there are just too many people out there who are ignorant about what the Theory of Evolution actually states (as in, there are many out there that claim that the Theory of Evolution explains how the universe and everything else came about, which it absolutely does not do). Also, the fact that it has the word theory in it's title also makes ignorant people scream that it can not be true if it is a theory (I say ignorant, as they do not understand what theory, in scientific terms, actually entails).

What I find funny though is that the Catholic Church (at least the former Pope) declared that Evolution and Creationism can go hand in hand. Basically, he stated there is no problem between the too, that evolution is true, just as much so as Christians believe the creationism is true. Sadly, some people are simply too blind to see the truth.

True, there is no "debate". What there is is a constant refrain from creationist unwilling to accept reality.
I think education is the key. Unfortunately, as seen in Texas and Kansas, pseudoscience makes it into our education system at times and promotes ignorance in our children.

Is there a big debate?

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Nope.
There is nothing more than a group of people who disregard and ignore facts and truth to preach about their beliefs having their arses handed to them by those who are bored.

Mestemia said:

Nope.
There is nothing more than a group of people who disregard and ignore facts and truth to preach about their beliefs having their arses handed to them by those who are bored.

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I think the political debate on the issue has the potential for serious ramifications.

For example, the recent campaign in Texas by creationists to get science textbooks altered to reflect their views.

There isn't a scientific debate. Which is why creationism seeks to gain a foothold through politics,

wa:do

9-10ths_Penguin said:

I think the political debate on the issue has the potential for serious ramifications.

For example, the recent campaign in Texas by creationists to get science textbooks altered to reflect their views.

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See Tumbleweed's post (#7).

The people of Texas have voted out the head of the creationist push, in favor of a moderate that ran on a platform of honesty and the removal of creationism from the Texas system (including the material contained in their schoolbooks). The moderates don't have the majority yet, but this is a huge step in the right direction.

As for MoF's contention that there is actually a debate, I reject his claim. There is no debate. Obstinately holding onto one's willful ignorance does not constitute a debate.

Man of Faith said:

If you look around there are a lot of evolution vs creation or ID forums out there, so sure there is a debate. If you are asking whether there is a debate in the public arena, yes you can look at Texas to see how it is panning out. Basically it is time to teach the problems with evolution along with the theory.

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Tell us all MoF, do you agree that other areas should also include "problems"? Say we have math, and a teacher claims 2 plus(+) two to be 4. Perhap someone else have another theory about that and claims it is 5.

Do you agree we need to allow every claim to be questioned, else it becomes rather strange that one sole area is to be questioned but no other?. Do you agree?

nonbeliever_92 said:

I've heard many people say that there is a big debate between Evolution and ID happening right now, but is this true? Is the debate as big as I have heard, is it even a debate at all? Furthermore, is the discussion between the ToE and ID a debate or is it whether ID should be taught in schools or not the true debate?

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In the scientific community there is no debate. In the US 99.9% of all scientists in evolution related areas (Biology, Paleontology, Geology, etc) accepted evolution. The other 0.1% are religious fundementalists. The only debate for 99.9% of all scientists in the relevant fields in the US are the mechanisms of evolution.

In the rest of the world very close to 100% of the scientists have accepted evolution. The few who don't are viewed in the same light as flat-earthers.

The Voice of Reason said:

See Tumbleweed's post (#7).

The people of Texas have voted out the head of the creationist push, in favor of a moderate that ran on a platform of honesty and the removal of creationism from the Texas system (including the material contained in their schoolbooks). The moderates don't have the majority yet, but this is a huge step in the right direction.

As for MoF's contention that there is actually a debate, I reject his claim. There is no debate. Obstinately holding onto one's willful ignorance does not constitute a debate.

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I agree that it is a good step in the right way, but the board is still headed by people of the same belief as McLeroy. Also, the majority on the board, or at least the last time I checked, had no business being there. They were not qualified, and most were quite religious, to the point that they believe that Christian beliefs need to be taught in schools.

As 9-10ths_Penguin stated, the political ramifications could be horrible for logic in general. I do not care for home schooling, but if big changes are not made for the good, it may be the only option in the future.

fallingblood said:

As 9-10ths_Penguin stated, the political ramifications could be horrible for logic in general. I do not care for home schooling, but if big changes are not made for the good, it may be the only option in the future.

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Home schooling just isn't pragmatic. I doubt very many people can afford to home school their children (especially given the current economic state), let alone have the ability to effectively home school them. The only other option is private schooling, and again it becomes a money issue. When I was a little kid I almost went into a private school, a good one, but a year at that school would have cost as much as a year in college, which just wasn't possible for my parents. So for the vast majority of people public schooling is the only option to receive a decent education. It is the future, good or bad.

There is no debate. There is debate on forums such as RF because this is where Creationists and "Evolutionists" collide, but in the Scientific arena there is no debate at all.
When asked to prove Creationism, Creationists cannot, they just try to attack Evolution with old and refuted arguments which they continue to use over and over.
Whenever the "Controversy" has gone to court, Evolution has won every time, you know why? because it is enfact the truth.

I wouldn't even call this a debate forum. I, for one, have yet to engage in debate on the concept of evolution. This is an education forum. We're here to teach evolutionary theory to those who do not understand it, so they can learn to accept it.