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How can the New Testament be even remotely correct?
- Thread starter Mathematician
- Start date
tkdrocks
Mellowing with Age
I will have to say that this is the first time that I have heard someone say that contradictions in the Bible prove that it is true. Usually, people spend more time trying to prove that they are not contradictions.jgallandt said:
I guess an important difference would be between the birth Narratives of Matthew and Luke. Both are extremely non-specific on details (which lends to being based upon traditions rather than first hand accounts).
Interesting Prophetic Reference: Matthew 2:23
23and he went and lived in a town called Nazareth. So was fulfilled what was said through the prophets: "He will be called a Nazarene."
I have not been able to find this prophecy anywhere in the Hebrew writings
blueman
God's Warrior
Why was there a reason for him to? John Mark was the son of a Jerusalem widow whose home was a meeting place for early believers (Acts 12:12). Mark had access to Peter and recorded events firsthand as he heard them from one of Jesus's disciples. There was no need for him to recall the virgin birth, but his book initially focused on the commencement of Jesus's ministry after being baptized by John. I'm really not getting your point.Ryan2065 said:
tkdrocks
Mellowing with Age
That could be a topic by itself, but here are some fun ones in relation to the resurrection.Katzpur said:
The entire text is here: http://ffrf.org/books/lfif/?t=stone
Here is a sample:
Here are some of the discrepancies among the resurrection accounts:
What time did the women visit the tomb?
- Matthew: "as it began to dawn" (28:1)
- Mark: "very early in the morning . . . at the rising of the sun" (16:2, KJV); "when the sun had risen" (NRSV); "just after sunrise" (NIV)
- Luke: "very early in the morning" (24:1, KJV) "at early dawn" (NRSV)
- John: "when it was yet dark" (20:1)
- Matthew: Mary Magdalene and the other Mary (28:1)
- Mark: Mary Magdalene, the mother of James, and Salome (16:1)
- Luke: Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and other women (24:10)
- John: Mary Magdalene (20:1)
- Matthew: to see the tomb (28:1)
- Mark: had already seen the tomb (15:47), brought spices (16:1)
- Luke: had already seen the tomb (23:55), brought spices (24:1)
- John: the body had already been spiced before they arrived (19:39,40)
- Matthew: No (28:2)
- Mark: Yes (16:4)
- Luke: Yes (24:2)
- John: Yes (20:1)
- Matthew: One angel (28:2-7)
- Mark: One young man (16:5)
- Luke: Two men (24:4)
- John: Two angels (20:12)
- Matthew: Angel sitting on the stone (28:2)
- Mark: Young man sitting inside, on the right (16:5)
- Luke: Two men standing inside (24:4)
- John: Two angels sitting on each end of the bed (20:12)
- Matthew: "Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified. He is not here for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead: and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you." (28:5-7)
- Mark: "Be not afrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him. But go your way, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you." (16:6-7)
- Luke: "Why seek ye the living among the dead? He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again." (24:5-7)
- John: "Woman, why weepest thou?" (20:13)
- Matthew: Yes (28:8)
- Mark: No. "Neither said they any thing to any man." (16:8)
- Luke: Yes. "And they returned from the tomb and told all these things to the eleven, and to all the rest." (24:9, 22-24)
- John: Yes (20:18)
- Matthew: Yes (28:7-8)
- Mark: Yes (16:10,11)
- Luke: Yes (24:6-9,23)
- John: No (20:2)
- Matthew: Before she returned to the disciples (28:9)
- Mark: Before she returned to the disciples (16:9,10)
- John: After she returned to the disciples (20:2,14)
- Matthew: Yes (28:9)
- John: No (20:17), Yes (20:27)
- Matthew: Eleven disciples (28:16)
- Mark: Two disciples in the country, later to eleven (16:12,14)
- Luke: Two disciples in Emmaus, later to eleven (24:13,36)
- John: Ten disciples (Judas and Thomas were absent) (20:19, 24)
- Paul: First to Cephas (Peter), then to the twelve. (Twelve? Judas was dead). (I Corinthians 15:5)
- Matthew: On a mountain in Galilee (60-100 miles away) (28:16-17)
- Mark: To two in the country, to eleven "as they sat at meat" (16:12,14)
- Luke: In Emmaus (about seven miles away) at evening, to the rest in a room in Jerusalem later that night. (24:31, 36)
- John: In a room, at evening (20:19)
- Mark: No (16:13)
- Luke: Yes (24:34--it is the group speaking here, not the two)
- Matthew: Disciples worshipped, some doubted, "Go preach." (28:17-20)
- Mark: Jesus reprimanded them, said "Go preach" (16:14-19)
- Luke: Christ incognito, vanishing act, materialized out of thin air, reprimand, supper (24:13-51)
- John: Passed through solid door, disciples happy, Jesus blesses them, no reprimand (21:19-23)
- Mark: No (16:19) Compare 16:14 with John 20:19 to show that this was all done on Sunday
- Luke: No (24:50-52) It all happened on Sunday
- John: Yes, at least eight days (20:26, 21:1-22)
- Acts: Yes, at least forty days (1:3)
- Matthew: No ascension. Book ends on mountain in Galilee
- Mark: In or near Jerusalem, after supper (16:19)
- Luke: In Bethany, very close to Jerusalem, after supper (24:50-51)
- John: No ascension
- Paul: No ascension
- Acts: Ascended from Mount of Olives (1:9-12)
tkdrocks
Mellowing with Age
Another explaination may be that the "Virgin Birth" Doctrine did not yet exist. These may have been added in the later 'gospels' to promote that doctrine.blueman said:Why was there a reason for him to? John Mark was the son of a Jerusalem widow whose home was a meeting place for early believers (Acts 12:12). Mark had access to Peter and recorded events firsthand as he heard them from one of Jesus's disciples. There was no need for him to recall the virgin birth, but his book initially focused on the commencement of Jesus's ministry after being baptized by John. I'm really not getting your point.
tkdrocks
Mellowing with Age
Good rebuttal, however; The Virgin Birth is a major doctrinal issue. The Nature of Abraham Lincoln is not changed depending upon where he was born. The 'divinity' of Jesus is dependent upon how he became human. I would call that more than a minor oversight.jgallandt said:
tkdrocks
Mellowing with Age
Writing what you hear someone else say is hearsay. It should not be considered an eyewitness account. That is the problem the I have with the Gospels. They should not be considered 'historical accounts'. If one wants to use them as traditional pillars, that would be fine with me, but the distance between the events and the writings provide too much room for revisionism.jgallandt said:
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
Tk,
I wouild say that Jesus' divinity is based on God telling us he is divine.
The Bible contends that those who seek Him will find him and for ALL OTHERS the scriptures will be foolish. You guys have proved that beyond all debate.
I Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."
20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength. 26 Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised thingsand the things that are notto nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from Godthat is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord." NIV
I wouild say that Jesus' divinity is based on God telling us he is divine.
The Bible contends that those who seek Him will find him and for ALL OTHERS the scriptures will be foolish. You guys have proved that beyond all debate.
I Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."
20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength. 26 Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised thingsand the things that are notto nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from Godthat is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord." NIV
blueman
God's Warrior
Each gospel had a purpose and was not meant to be a regurgitation of the chronological history of Christ. In evaluating the synoptic gospels the theme and the intended audience often took precedence in the mind of the writer over the chronology of events. For example, each one emphasizes a different aspect of Jesus's character. Matthew, whose primary audience was the Jews, presents Him as King, the promised Messiah as referenced by some of the Old Testament prophets. Mark represents him as a servant to man, primarily those in need and scorned by society, Luke, who wrote to the Greeks, presented him as the perfect (sinless) man and John presented as God in human flesh, all accurately depicting the uniqueness and attributes of Christ.tkdrocks said:
blueman
God's Warrior
But it is already depicted in two Gospels (Mattew and Luke) thought to be written by many archaeologists between A.D. 30-70, well within the authors lifetime. Does that make it any less valid because Mark did not make reference to it? Also Luke makes reference to 53 geographical locations in his book and in every instance, archaeology has proved him accurate. I believe the scriptures to be valid.tkdrocks said:
jeffrey
â Ãig Dogâ
1st, this isn't a court of law, Jesus is not on trial. And once again using your theory, any book about anything that ever happened in history that was not written by the person that experienced it should be disregarded? Do you realize how many books and accounts of history would be thrown out? Have you taken into account that the majority of people back then where not able to read and write?tkdrocks said:
Scott1
Well-Known Member
'Aint this the truth.... it is quite amazing how things become clear.... I've only been a Christian two years now, so I remember quite well reading the Bible and thinking "This is gibberish... how the heck is anyone fooled by this crap?".... and then one day it all fell into place.... what a wonderful feeling.... "Oooooh... THAT'S what it meant.".. I felt foolish and joyful all at the same time.NetDoc said:
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
Again, you are in error because you don't realise the power of God to do all things. Even through imperfect men.
(Like us)All this is just an example of how man has corrupted the scriptures after hundreds of years of tampering with them. When they were originally told and written they were the word of God verbatim, but men have changed much to fulifill an agenda or just out of negligence.tkdrocks said: