Jesus Paul and Muhammad

john313 said:

Peace,
These books have been rejected by the church because they do not support Pauline doctrine, that is why they do not "resonate". Nevertheless, the Gospel of the Holy Twelve is the oldest record of the words/stories of Jesus we have. If you are interested at all you can read more as to the authenticity of the Gospel here: http://www.thenazareneway.com/legend_of_the_lost_gospel.htm
I am aware of John 1:1, which was taken directly from Hindu vedas by the way. I do not believe that the physical body of Jesus has lived since the beginning. He had a human body, when his name was Jesus, which would grow old and fall apart. I'm not sure what you mean by authenticated word of God since the bible has many internal modifications and mistranslations, it even says in Jeremiah 8-7:9 : "Even the stork in the sky knows her appointed seasons, and the dove, the swift and the thrush observe the time of their migration. But my people do not know the requirements of YHWH. How can you say, 'We are wise, for we have the Torah of YHWH,' when actually the lying pen of the Scribes has handled it falsely? The wise will be put to shame; they will be dismayed and trapped. Since they have rejected the Word of YHWH, what kind of Wisdom do they have?"
If Jeremiah was telling the truth, which he must be since it has been "authenticated" by the governing authorities in charge of the council of Nicea, then the Torah has been modified. How can you say a book is the word of God when it says in itself that it has been changed by "the LYING pen of the scribes?"

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That's because Jesus's body wasn't a physical one and only became one through His incarnation when He came to the earth as a physical presence through the virgin birth. That was the requirement to redeem mankind, taking on sin in a physical fashion, through a physical death. He was transformed when He ascended into heaven after His resurrection. Also, lets not take scripture out of context. The prophet Jeremiah in verses 7-9 of Chapter 8 was referring to false teachers who had twisted and distorted the law through the worhsip of other gods and idols and in direct disobedience with the will of God. These so-called teachers during that time were willing to tolerate anything, although it did not align with God's Word. John wrote about the fact that the "Word was with God" in the beginning. Was he a liar and false prophet as well?

Peace,
Concerning the fruits of Paul, i would argue that he robbed churches, persecuted the folowers of Jesus, taught pagan ideas (Jesus as God, man-god teachings just like the romans were used to), taught the law was abolished when Jesus taught no such thing. He has helped condemn many people by having them worship a false God.
I like ‘The acts of the sinful nature are obvious; sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, drunkenness, orgies and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.’ Galatians 5 v 19-21
Idolatry-like making an image of image of Jesus and calling him God??? when people are supposed to be forbidden from graven images. If everything that comes out of someone is evil, surely the people will see it and not follow, there is truth mixed in with the deception of Paul.

I know the author has done a lot of investigation on Paul since i know him personally. He is simply pointing out that Paul admits to being crafty and robbing churches, it is not strange.

Faith and deeds: So would you say that if someone has never heard of Jesus they would not be saved? People like Moses, Adam, Abraham, an innocent 2 year old child... other people who did great wroks, but never knew Jesus since he was not yet born.

Paul is referred to as buloos ad-dajjal (not sure if that is spelled right) in hadith, he is referred as the anti-christ(dajjal) or deceiver. Deceptive teachings are what is reversed in the Quran. Things like the trinity and the abolition of the law of Moses.
"Flesh eating flesh? How offensive an act!" -Jesus. is from hadith, it was Jesus the Messiah. Islam teaches that Jesus was a vegetarian, just as some of the dead sea scroll texts teach the same. James, the brother of Jesus, was also a vegetarian. Unfortunately Paul says it is weak to be a vegetarian. I guess he was saying that God is weak since he taught Jesus was God. I can get you the hadith reference if you want, the site i got it from is down right now, but insha'Allah it will be up again soon.

blueman said:

That's because Jesus's body wasn't a physical one and only became one through His incarnation when He came to the earth as a physical presence through the virgin birth. That was the requirement to redeem mankind, taking on sin in a physical fashion, through a physical death. He was transformed when He ascended into heaven after His resurrection. Also, lets not take scripture out of context. The prophet Jeremiah in verses 7-9 of Chapter 8 was referring to false teachers who had twisted and distorted the law through the worhsip of other gods and idols and in direct disobedience with the will of God. These so-called teachers during that time were willing to tolerate anything, although it did not align with God's Word. John wrote about the fact that the "Word was with God" in the beginning. Was he a liar and false prophet as well?

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Peace,
Jesus taught that we do not need bloodshed to be forgiven for sins. It seems odd to me that he would be up for human sacrifice but not animal.
What John was saying is basically the Word (Jesus to christians) was with God in the beginning of the world. Also the Word was God, not the totality of God, but part of God. Jesus says he and the Father are one, he also says that he and the disciples are one. That is because they are all part of God, part of the One, not the totality of God. Check out quantum mechanics if you are interested in the scientific theories that support this. quantum physics is amazing stuff. There is a documentary/movie called "what the Bleep do we Know" that is pretty good (it is actually Bleep in the title). God is spirit as Jesus taught. this spirit is what makes up everything we see around us. God is in everything, and we are all part of God. it makes up our souls, the angels, our bodies, your computer monitor. All life is one.

john313 said:

Peace,
Concerning the fruits of Paul, i would argue that he robbed churches, persecuted the folowers of Jesus, taught pagan ideas (Jesus as God, man-god teachings just like the romans were used to), taught the law was abolished when Jesus taught no such thing. He has helped condemn many people by having them worship a false God.
I like ‘The acts of the sinful nature are obvious; sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, drunkenness, orgies and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.’ Galatians 5 v 19-21
Idolatry-like making an image of image of Jesus and calling him God??? when people are supposed to be forbidden from graven images. If everything that comes out of someone is evil, surely the people will see it and not follow, there is truth mixed in with the deception of Paul.

I know the author has done a lot of investigation on Paul since i know him personally. He is simply pointing out that Paul admits to being crafty and robbing churches, it is not strange.

Faith and deeds: So would you say that if someone has never heard of Jesus they would not be saved? People like Moses, Adam, Abraham, an innocent 2 year old child... other people who did great wroks, but never knew Jesus since he was not yet born.

Paul is referred to as buloos ad-dajjal (not sure if that is spelled right) in hadith, he is referred as the anti-christ(dajjal) or deceiver. Deceptive teachings are what is reversed in the Quran. Things like the trinity and the abolition of the law of Moses.
"Flesh eating flesh? How offensive an act!" -Jesus. is from hadith, it was Jesus the Messiah. Islam teaches that Jesus was a vegetarian, just as some of the dead sea scroll texts teach the same. James, the brother of Jesus, was also a vegetarian. Unfortunately Paul says it is weak to be a vegetarian. I guess he was saying that God is weak since he taught Jesus was God. I can get you the hadith reference if you want, the site i got it from is down right now, but insha'Allah it will be up again soon.

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So you are referring to Paul's actions before he came to Christ correct? Ho many of us were righteous before we accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior? What about Paul's fruit that was exhibited after he accepted Christ, as referenced in Galations 5:22,23? Get off the Paul smear campaign, man!!!!!!!!!!!!!

john313 said:

Peace,
Jesus taught that we do not need bloodshed to be forgiven for sins. It seems odd to me that he would be up for human sacrifice but not animal.
What John was saying is basically the Word (Jesus to christians) was with God in the beginning of the world. Also the Word was God, not the totality of God, but part of God. Jesus says he and the Father are one, he also says that he and the disciples are one. That is because they are all part of God, part of the One, not the totality of God. Check out quantum mechanics if you are interested in the scientific theories that support this. quantum physics is amazing stuff. There is a documentary/movie called "what the Bleep do we Know" that is pretty good (it is actually Bleep in the title). God is spirit as Jesus taught. this spirit is what makes up everything we see around us. God is in everything, and we are all part of God. it makes up our souls, the angels, our bodies, your computer monitor. All life is one.

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Let's not diefy ourselves and put ourselves on a level playing field with God and His Son Jesus. We receive righteousness through His Son and that alone, based on the shedding of His blood on the cross for the atonement of our sins. That same Jesus, incarnate and God in the flesh, was with Him at the beginning of creation. The essence of God is evident in the God The Father, God The Son and God the Holy Spirit.

People who felt threatened by his teachings accused Paul of many things. Paul offered no compromise with his teaching and took business away from others making money from religion. When he claims that he robbed other churches what he is saying is that he accepted support from these churches, as mentioned in the previous verse, because he travelled and had no home. Those opposed to him attacked him and amongst other things accused him of robbing the churches. Paul merely uses their words ironically. You are suggesting that he said to his audience ‘Be good and do not sin and to help you in this I’ve sacked the rich church up the road.’ As king of the deceivers, as you claim him to be, he is not very good and by no means subtle.



You mention Paul persecuted the Christians but have you read the whole story in the right order. I’m surprised this has proved a stumbling block since it is so clearly laid out. Paul (or rather Saul) was a Pharisee who persecuted Christians who the Pharisees thought were blasphemers. Saul was confronted and blinded in a vision on a journey to Damascus to round up any Christians he found there. God told Ananias to go to Saul and place his hands on him. Ananias did and restored Saul’s sight through God. Saul who later became commonly called Paul persecuted the Christians no more but was persecuted himself by some Jews. Paul did persecute Christians but then he became one after meeting with Jesus in a way that many still do today. Read Acts 7: 54-60 & 9: 1-31 for Saul story and Chasing the Dragon by Jackie Pullinger for more recent stories of the like.



Jesus as God is what Jesus taught and was the whole point and fulfilment of the Old Testament. To disregard it or consider it Pagan is to ignore the message of the whole Bible. God said to Abraham in his calling ‘ I will bless those who bless you and whoever curses you I will curse and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you’ (Genesis 12:3) Jesus did not abolish the Law, he fulfilled it. The sacrifices that people had to make in order to prove the repentance of their own sins was replaced by the perfect sacrifice of Jesus. The point of Jesus being sinless, which Muslims also believe, was to become a perfect sacrifice. Why Muslims believe Jesus was sinless when they refuse to believe he died I don’t know.



How deeply did the author look into why Paul seemed to claim to be crafty or a robber of churches? Those are the kind of things you would not write in a personal diary if you were trying to deceive the world let alone tell the people whom you are trying to deceive. I’m not saying that the author did not do much research but I do wonder if he looked at the resulting the picture he painted. What he is suggesting is something rather ridiculous on a number of points and I think his sole aim was to back up what he wanted to believe maybe through Islam. Is it possible that there was more to what Paul was saying when he said that he robbed churches or was crafty?

The mixed truths thing doesn’t work either unless every single person Paul was writing to was totally stupid or for whatever reason just accepted whatever was said to them. These people would have seen inconsistencies in Paul’s teaching and refused to following him thereafter, not to mention the Jews who were looking for a reason to rubbish his message. These persecuted followers not only stuck by his teachings but grew into the massive religion we have today.



About your question on good people before Jesus and others who die before hearing and understanding his message, I could ask you the same thing. What about the people you mentioned too young to understand Muhammad’s message or say the Shahadah or those who did not know who Muhammad was? As a Christian I believe in a good and completely just God. I believe that whatever a person’s situation God will deal with them justly. Also in Romans 1: 18-23 Paul tells us that God has made it plain to everyone through his creation that there is a creator God in control. Even those who have never seen a Bible can look to the world and see more than man at work. These people sin when they chose to bow down to an animal or inanimate object that they must know is less than they are. Also I believe God has put his Spirit (conscience) in us all who tells us that there is more to life than what the world offers. Like a celebrity who has everything the world has to offer but still feels unfulfilled.



Faith and deeds. I do not believe that anyone at all, ever, was saved by deeds. The people you mentioned Moses, Abraham etc. were not saved by their deeds. They were saved by their faith that was shown by their deeds. If Abraham had killed his son when God had not asked him to it would have served no purpose. The fact that God stopped him just in time suggests that the deed served no purpose other than prove his faith. His complete faith in God was what He wanted. Moses was punished by God and barred from ever going into the promised land because he added a deed – striking the rock Numbers 20: 1-14 – to God’s word. He should have had faith that God’s instruction was enough.

About Jesus being a vegetarian what do you make of Leviticus 11: 2 ‘Say to the Israelites: ‘Of all the animals that live on land, these are the ones you may eat’? If God thought it was ok why would his prophet call God’s laws ‘detestable’?

Thanks
Zyzyx

I don’t mind the author saying that Paul was the antichrist because that is an opinion but what I do object to is someone saying that his or her conclusions are fact. I try to stress that my conclusions are my own and I understand that others will conclude differently. The author here says things like:

‘Here Sha'ul claims that HE, not "Christ" had "begotten you."’ when that is his interpretation.

‘He is claiming that he is essentially Christ’ an interpretation I have never heard before but claimed as fact.

‘Yet Sha'ul's claims make it clear what he is saying’ what the author sees as clear is by no means the case since hundreds of millions of people see it another way.

‘Sha'ul got it all wrong again, when he emphasized only Faith’ once again he claims his findings are correct and not one possible interpretation and says them in a derogatory way.

I have found this style of writing many times and I think it is misleading. I fear that less researched people will just believe what they read because it is presented as fact.

blueman said:

So you are referring to Paul's actions before he came to Christ correct? Ho many of us were righteous before we accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior? What about Paul's fruit that was exhibited after he accepted Christ, as referenced in Galations 5:22,23? Get off the Paul smear campaign, man!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Should i not mention how he allowed his buddy Ananeus to kill James? this was after he "came to Christ" by the way. Is allowing the murder of the head of the Jerusalem church good fruit? I am not on a Paul smear campaign, i am trying to convey the truth to those who have been brainwashed into believing pagan man-god ideas taught by Paul.

blueman said:

Let's not diefy ourselves and put ourselves on a level playing field with God and His Son Jesus. We receive righteousness through His Son and that alone, based on the shedding of His blood on the cross for the atonement of our sins. That same Jesus, incarnate and God in the flesh, was with Him at the beginning of creation. The essence of God is evident in the God The Father, God The Son and God the Holy Spirit.

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I am by no means deifying myself, but by all means continue to deny science if that helps you. We can become righteous by following the teachings of Jesus, not by his blood. Didn't blood offerings have to have the blood put on the altar to be accepted? I missed the part in the modified gospels of the bible where that happened.

John
Here is a link you might be interested in.
http://www.debate.org.uk/topics/theo/jes-paul.htm
Enjoy
Zyzyx

Peace,

Thanks for the site, it was interesting. this is the first i have ever heard of this Maccoby fellow, i do not agree with some of the points made though.

To say that it was Paul who created the view of Jesus as deity is to reject the christology of the Jerusalem church

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We must remember that James was the first head of the Jerusalem church after the crucifiction and he did not teach that Jesus was God, in fact he was constantly battling with Paul, he was even attacked by Paul.

Maccoby's source for his material is the discredited Christian writer Epiphanius

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He makes this statement but does not say why this writer is not credible. I do not know if Epiphanius was insane or whatever else it may be. Was he discredited only by the church because he told the truth?

Jesus could not be the Messiah and the prophet like unto Moses, these were different prophecies to be filled by separate individuals. Jesus was the Messiah, not the Prophet like Moses. When the pharisees came to John the Baptist, they asked if he was 1)the prophet, 2)the Messiah, 3)Elijah. The prophet like unto Moses was the same comforter that Jesus promised he would send(though it is erronously translated by christians to be the Holy Ghost in Jesus's prophesy), it was Muhammad who glorified Jesus's name just like Jesus said he would.

He uses Acts, which historians say is largely a romanticized version of some true events with the names changed and misplaced in history. and the author(s) are not known for sure(as with many old documents of this nature), they do however talk a lot about Paul for whatever reason even though he was not an apostle. This is based on other documents from this time including the writings of Josephus.
It was pointed out that the gospels of the bible were not written for 40+ years after the crucifiction, since historians agree with this, were the gospels based at all on the letters attributed to Paul? I do not claim that Paul later changed them, he could have influenced their text when they were written, also they have been changed since the originals were written.

You mentioned James did not teach that Jesus was God and Paul was constantly battling him. Where are you getting this from?

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From the Dead Sea Scrolls, the writings attributed to James and about James, the book of James in the Bible. James was a very important character in early "jewish christianity" but he is mostly written out of the bible because he taught the message of Jesus, not the message of Paul.

John1:20-21 "And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ(1). And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias(2)? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet(3)? And he answered, No."

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I added the numbers to show there are 3 distinct people they were looking for to fulfill the prophesies.

Why in your opinion do the two prophecies you mentioned have to be fulfilled by two different people?

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If they were to be fulfilled by the same person they would be the same prophesy, there would be no need for 2 separate ones.

You said that Christians ‘erroneously translated’ the comforter to be the Holy Spirit but John 14:26 says ‘But the Counsellor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.’

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The english version says that, but there are many choices for translation other then the "holy spirit". one of these choices is "the spirit of Truth"- Muhammad was known as exceptionally truthful, a spirit of truth. there are also many other choices as well.

You also said that Muhammad glorified Jesus’ name. What do you mean by this? From what I see, Islam has demoted Jesus rather dramatically. If you read the New Testament you will see Jesus’ name truly glorified by his disciples after the Holy Spirit descends on them. Muhammad re-wrote Jesus to be a perfect prophet and little more. Muhammad elevated himself above all others who ever were and claimed second-in-command to God and his main reason is because of time. Because he came after Abraham, Moses, David, Jesus etc. this quality somehow makes him better. Jesus’ name is hardly glorified by Muslims today compared to Christians. The only cases of Jesus being elevated in the Qur’an are remarkable similar to perverted stories we have from sects not recognised by any religion. Jesus says in John 14:6 ‘No-one comes to the Father except through me.’ Muhammad rather than glorifying Jesus, knocks him down from Messiah to mere prophet, somewhere beneath himself. The Comforter, as Christians believe to be, did exactly what Jesus said it would. The disciples were so comforted by it that they went from the brink of giving up to being willing to die for what they believed. If Muhammad was the Comforter then there was a period of 600 years with no comfort during which everyone who Jesus spoke to died uncomforted. It makes no sense on any level that Muhammad was the one Jesus spoke of, like it makes no sense that Paul was the Antichrist.

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I would argue that the new testament has defiled the name of Jesus by claiming him to be God, The Quran has cleared his name and glorified him and his works. Muhammad did not rewrite Jesus, he simply conveyed the truth about him being a prophet and the Messiah.
He did not elevate himself above all others, i am not sure where you got that. He was the seal of the prophets, the last prophet, that does not make him better or worse than any other prophet and i have never seen anything by him claiming to be better than any prophet. You have some false information regarding the Islamic Jesus. He was the messiah, he is called "Isa al-Masih" - Jesus the Messiah. Muhammad never ever said he was greater than Jesus, again this is false information.
So it makes sense that a man can be god, that someone who has never met this man-god is more qualified to preach his teachings than the real disciples and apostles, that the law Jesus upheld his whole life is abolished with his death, that someone who taught not to sacrifice animals would give himself up for human sacrifice, that a human sacrifice can take away sins, that a dead man-god resurrected himself....?

Lastly you say that Acts is unreliable according to some historians. History will never be proved beyond a doubt but Luke and Acts (believed to by written by the same man) are generally accepted as outstanding pieces of historical work. They are favourites of people trying to discredit the Bible because there is so much historical information written in. Three such people were C. S. Lewis, Lee Strobel and someone high up in the British Museum. All three are highly educated people who used this education to disprove the Bible and all three converted to Christianity as a result of their findings.

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the Dead Sea Scrolls (buried a long time ago and unaltered by the church or man) and the works of Josephus seem to contradict their accuracy quite a bit. God guides those whom Hu will. There are highly educated people in every religion, perhaps that means all religions are partially right and those "smart" individuals see the truth in what they have studied.

‘James…is mostly written out of the bible because he taught the message of Jesus, not the message of Paul.’

Why would the ‘corrupt church’ mostly write out James’ message and not all of it? Why not completely erase James’ existence from the Bible if he was any kind of threat? I don’t understand the Muslim who thinks the Bible is corrupt and then points out verses that ‘point to Muhammad’. If these corruptors were careful enough to erase as much as they did why would they miss verses that Muslims say ‘clearly’ point to Muhammad? If you read Galatians 2: 9 Paul calls James a ‘pillar’ of the church along with Peter and John. In Galatians 1: 19 Paul says he saw none of the apostles-only James, the Lord’s brother. Acts 21: 18 has Paul reporting to James and the elders of the Church. No other elder is mentioned by name.

‘If they were to be fulfilled by the same person they would be the same prophesy, there would be no need for 2 separate ones.’

It is believed that Jesus fulfilled loads of prophecies not just one. See http://biblia.com/jesusbible/prophecies.htm#Here%20are%20just%2050 for a list of 50 prophecies fulfilled by Jesus. I have not read and studied the whole page yet so I cannot answer for them all yet but I believe that the whole of the Old Testament was pointing towards Jesus. I do not believe that God just sent down a series of prophet that Jesus was just one of. I believe that they all pointed to Jesus and he fulfilled the Old Testament. This is one reason why Muhammad makes no sense to me. Jesus fulfilled the Law as the long awaited Messiah. Then Muhammad comes along claiming to be another prophet that is not mentioned at all in the Bible (or is pointed to in a few scattered verses the Jews forgot to remove when they were busy corrupting the text.(according to Muslims). Why would God let the story of the descendents of Isaac be so well recorded and the story of Ishmael’s go unknown. Did He slip on a some almighty banana skin or is it possible that the Bible is now and has always been what He wanted to preserve to teach his creation how to have life in it’s fullest? Not allowing His message to be corrupted by man or devil.

‘Muhammad was known as exceptionally truthful’

The Holy Spirit is also known as the Spirit of Truth. Does Muhammad’s being referred to as ‘exceptionally truthful’ proof that he was the one talked of? As Muhammad’s power grew, there was gain to be had by praising him. Sura 33: 56 even has the ‘divine’ command to call blessings on Muhammad when you see him. SHAKIR: ‘Surely Allah and His angels bless the Prophet; O you who believe! call for (Divine) blessings on him and salute him with a (becoming) salutation.’ You still have the problem of 600 years without if Muhammad was the one.


’I would argue that the new testament has defiled the name of Jesus by claiming him to be God’

What was the Messiah in your opinion?


I will look into the Dead Sea Scroll but to my knowledge they are accepted by Christians as valid and complementary to the Bible we read today.

I was not saying that Christianity was the smart man’s choice. I was saying that some people have tried to disprove the Bible using modern methods and the evidence was so compelling in favour of the Bible they converted to Christianity. The only possible conclusion to their findings was that Christianity was the truth. I mentioned the education of these people just to show that they were in a good position to analyse the information they had. When the same analysis is applied to the Qur’an a very different picture emerges. This paper is one I found interesting http://www.debate.org.uk/topics/history/bib-qur/contents.htm

To better understand Jesus and Paul, we need to know how the NT was born:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/NTcanon.html
Richard Carrier has summarized well in the above.
It is not a simple straight fight between James and Paul. There were many 'branches" of Christianity during the first few hundreds year of birth of Christianity. Paul was established as the final best candidate.
This is my satire look at the whole episode, tell me if it is offensive (my apology given here), and I shall delete it from this posting:

However, I still managed to inspire through my holy ghost, thousands and millions of preachers who are doing excellent job and are pretty convincing and manage to gather my frock of sheep together with my proper direction of the early Church Fathers and as well as the Pope. However in the early days from AD500 to AD1800, my loyal disciples have to resort to various very violent, bloody and cruel actions, in order to keep me alive, and give no mercy and let go my wrath on all those infidels, even among the believers themselves. They fought, killed each other, and burnt each others gospel (Ebionitism, Gnosticism, Hellenisticism, Marcion, Montanus, not to mention Muhammad, my last prophet, who managed to gather a considerable frock of sheep for me, who worship me five times a day instead of only once on Sabbath day, which makes me feel very good) until the winner emerged. By AD 200, 20 of the 27 books of the New Testament seem to have been generally regarded as authoritative. The 39th festal letter of St. Athanasius, bishop of Alexandria listed as canonical the 27 books that remain the contents of the New Testament. What a big relief for me when that was finally done. I have to work really hard to direct the holy spirit to the right persons to guide them to reach the correct decisions on which gospels to throw away, and which to include in the bible.

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I find John's view enlightening, though I do not think keep harping on Paul being the anti-Christ is going to prove anything regarding Christian's faith in the NT, just like Muslim faith in accepting Koran.

John

I was interested by what you said about John 1: 20-21. I read further on in v 25 that they do mention three people; Christ, Elijah and Prophet so I was wrong about the numbers. Sorry. I asked around and Ill try to summarise what I found out.



Christ

The Pharisees were very strongly against the Roman rule they were under and thought the Christ was going to be a warrior like David who would lead them in conquering the Romans and reclaiming the holy land. Jesus came as the Christ but not in the way they were expecting.



Elijah

Jews around the time of Jesus were expecting Elijah to return and apparently they set a space for him at the dinner table in case he returned. Christians believe that John the Baptist was the Elijah prophesied in Malachi 4:5 in that he ministered in the spirit and power of Elijah. John prepared the way for Jesus in the same way that Elijah prepared the way for Elisha. When John denies being Elijah he is talking physically because that is what the Pharisees were referring to (John 1:21). When Jesus claims that he was Elijah (Matthew 11:14) he is referring to him ministering in the spirit and power of Elijah.



Prophet (like me (Moses)

Below is a list of parallels between Moses and Jesus to suggest that he was ‘like Moses’. This is taken from a web site and not my own work.

(1) Both Moses and Jesus were born when Israel was under bondage (Moses in Egypt Ex.1:8,10, and Jesus during Israel's Roman bondage. Mt.2:1,Lk.2:1-2)

(2) Edicts were issued by the gentile powers of both Pharaoh and Herod for their death at birth. (Ex.2:3, Mt.2:15)

(3) Both were miraculously delivered from death during their infancy from their enemies of Israel (Ex.2:3, Lk.2:7;Mt 2:14,15) and were preserved in childhood.

(4) Both had been born and found in unusual places. Moses was found in the water floating in a basket of bulrushes (Ex.2:3) Jesus in a manger (cave) wrapped in burial cloths (Lk.2:7)

(5) Both Moses and Jesus were protected and preserved by the faith of their parent. Moses was hidden by faith (Ex.2:2-3 and Heb.11:23) Jesus’ life was preserved by his parents obeying the message in a dream. (Mt.2:13-14)

(6) Both Moses and Jesus stayed safely in Egypt for a time. Moses (Ex.2:10) Jesus dwelt safely in Egypt (Mt.2:14-15)

(7) Both had their brethren and family speak against them. Moses had Mariam and Aaron speak against him taking a Cu****e wife (Numb.12:1) Jesus had his family criticize and reject him (Mt.13:54-57, Jn.7:3)

(8) Both Moses and Jesus were reared in the house that was not their natural parents. (Moses in the house of Pharaoh (Ex.2:10) Jesus by Mary the mother of his humanity and his stepfather Joseph.

(9) Both predicted Israel's history (Deut.28:15-28; Mt.23:34,24:1,2,8,34)

(10) Both spoke out against Israel's enemies and persecutors. (Deut.23:3-4; Mt.25:41-48)

(11) Both were considered a snare to Israel (Ex10:7; 1Pt.2:8=Isa.8:14)

(12) Both cleansed leprosy. From Moses’ time no one that was Jewish was cleansed until Jesus came (Numb.12:10-16, Mk.1:40-41). This is a very significant factor that proves Jesus was the prophet Moses spoke of, since no other cured one of the brethren of this disease from Moses' time.

(13) Both were used of God to feed Israel miraculously, Moses with manna in the wilderness (Ex.16:14-17) Jesus with the five loaves and two fish fed four and five thousand two times. (Mt.14:19-21) Jesus also called himself the true manna that came from heaven in Jn.6, comparing himself to the miracle that sustained Israel alive through the desert.

(14) Both had the forces of nature obey them (the seas) Moses (Ex.14:21-22) Jesus (Mt.8:26-27)

(15) Each had seventy helpers Moses (Num.11:16-17) Jesus ( Lk.10:1).

(16) Both fasted 40 days and 40 nights in the wilderness to bring a covenant to Israel. Moses on the top of Mt. Sinai (Ex.24:18, 34:28, Deut.9:9) Jesus in the desert as the Son of God (Mt.4:2)

(17) Both had a face to face relationship with God unlike any other person. Moses (Ex.33:9-11, Deut.34:10; Numb.12:7-8) Jesus was with God=face to face from eternity (Jn.1:1,18)

(18) God spoke audibly and directly from heaven to both Moses and Jesus. Moses (Ex.20:22, 24:12-16) Jesus (Mt.3:17; Jn.12:28)

(19) Both were God's spokesman to and for the people. Moses (Ex.9:35; Numb.12:2) Jesus (Heb.1:1-3). They Spoke as oracles of God (Moses Deut. 18:18) Jesus (Jn.14:24, 5:24)

(20) Both Moses and Jesus reflected and shown the glory of God. Moses reflected his glory temporarily. (Ex.34:29-35; 2 Cor.3:7-14) Jesus at the transfiguration, his face shown brighter than the sun revealing his true nature (Mt.17:2; Jn.1:14)

(21) Both were known for their humility and meekness as God's servants. Moses (Numb.12:3) Jesus (Mt.11:29; Phil.2:3-8)

(22) Both contended with masters of deception and darkness Moses with Pharaohs magicians (Ex 7:11, 1 Tim.3:8) Jesus with the Devil (Mt 4:1).

(23) Both prayed for the people intercessory prayers and were willing to bear the consequences of the people's sins. Moses asked to be blotted out of the book of life for the peoples sake (Ex.32:32-33). Jesus asked for them to be kept from falling away (Jn. 17:9-17). Jesus asked for those to be forgiven while he bore the consequences in their stead. (Lk.23:34, 2 Cor.5:19, 1 Pt.2:21-24, Isa.53:8)

(25) Both Moses and Jesus were rejected by their own brethren for a time and accepted by the gentiles. Moses (Ex.2:14-22, 32:1) Jesus was rejected by his own people and received by another who were not his own. (Isa.53:3; Mt.12:21; Mk.6:4; Lk.20:9-17, Rom.11:20)

(26) Both Moses and Jesus established a priesthood. Moses began the Aaronic priesthood which was temporary under the law (Lev.9; Numb.8:20-26; Heb.9:19-22). Jesus established a eternal priesthood under the new covenant of grace which He alone functions as the high priest forever. (Heb.7:17,19,23,25-28; 9:12)

(27) Both sprinkled the blood of the covenant on the altar and the people. Moses (Ex.24:7-8; Lev.8:19) Jesus (Heb.9,12:24; 1Pt.1:2)

(28) Both were sent by God to reveal His name, person and law to the people. To Moses God said to tell them I Am sent you. (Ex.3:13-14) Jesus said God sent him as his exact representative revealing his name (I Am) and nature to the people. (Jn.8:42; 17:6,11-12; Col.2:9; Heb.1:3)

(29) Both were involved in giving the covenant to the people Jn.1:17 the law came through Moses but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.” At the feast of Pentecost Moses gave the law. At the feast (Pentecost) in the new covenant Jesus gave the Holy Spirit (Acts 2).

(30) Both brought deliverance to the Jewish people. Those who followed Moses out of the bondage of slavery to Egypt. (Ex.3:7-8,10;12:31-33,42) Jesus brought people out of a greater bondage, slavery to sin. (Rom.3:24-25,6:6-7,8:2-4; Eph.1:7;Heb.9:26)

(31) Both had an angel guard their graves. After Moses died Michael the Arch-angel guarded his body. (Jude 9) And when Jesus rose an angel guarded his tomb. (Mt.26:2-6)

(32) Both re-appeared after they died, Moses ( Mt 17:3 with Jesus before his death) Jesus (Acts 1:3)

cont...
There are generally four qualities a prophet of God has to have in order to be considered genuine.

1) They must speak the name of God YHWH – since it is he that chooses his prophets

2) They must be from among their ‘brothers’ – since these are his chosen people

3) They must confirm previous revelations – or God would be seen to be contradicting himself

4) Their message must be provable (through short term miracles) – so the people are not lead astray by every smooth talker

All the prophets of the Old Testament followed these rules, as did Jesus. Islam has seen God’s name changed and even 99 ‘beautiful names’ created for God. Brothers has been interpreted as the tribe of Ishmael by Muslims although Moses uses the term ‘brothers’ earlier in Deut in reference to David who was a Jew. Muslims claim that the previous scriptures are corrupted and false which is as far from confirmation as one can get. The Qur’an itself speaks of Muhammad’s disappointment at not being able to perform miracles when asked. The miracles offered by Muslims today are; The Qur’an itself which goes against the rules of Deut, the night journey that happened at night when no one was there to see it, especially those demanding miracles and a selection of stories in the Hadith which sound a lot like legend that springs up from many great leaders in the years after their death.



So Jesus was both the Christ and the Prophet although Deut 18 is understood to mean a series of prophets. Jesus did fulfil the role as the Christ and all the requirements mentioned in Deut that a true prophet must abide by. Muhammad did not or could not fulfil these and so he could not have been the Prophet talked of.

i can post a huge list of why Muhammad was the prophet like Moses and why he is more like Moses than Jesus, but there is no point. this thread is going nowhere and i am going to let it go.

john313 said:

i can post a huge list of why Muhammad was the prophet like Moses and why he is more like Moses than Jesus, but there is no point. this thread is going nowhere and i am going to let it go.

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Are you giving up? I like to read more on your perspective from submission:162: .
I accept Muhammad as a prophet, but not the last one. We still have lots of prophets running around nowadays, except very few followers for each of those prophet.

i am not giving up in the sense that i feel defeated, but that we are only arguing for the sake of arguing.
i am glad someone likes reading my perspective. if you have any questions about my perspective, which apparently seems weird to most people here, please feel free to ask me anything.