Smoke
Done here.
In both cases, as you point out, perfection requires radical renunciation. These are not two different definitions, but two aspects of a single definition.
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Matthew 19:21, Most Ignored Sentence in Bible?
- Thread starter dust1n
- Start date
It makes sense. Got another perception?
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
To me, this scripture means something a little bit different that we see when we initially read it. I believe that Jesus knows exactly what each of our strengths and each of our weaknesses are. One person (for example, the person He was directing His comments to) may have many good attributes but if generosity is not one of them, then that's the one he needs to work on. To someone else, Jesus might have said, "If you want to be perfect, then stop being so hard on your spouse and kids," or "If you want to be perfect, then work a little harder at being honest." See what I mean? I don't think the scripture means that we all have to give away everything we have and become poor.
arcanum
Active Member
It's about non possessiveness,This is an important facet of living a real spiritual life.most people need to work to get to get to that level because as we are life influences on us are huge.many can live at the periphery and are content to stay there,but to really live according to Jesus' teaching requires a transformation of orientation and consciousness.
Evandr
Stripling Warrior
Matt 5:48
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Matt 19:21
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow me.
Our Heavenly Father knows that no one in mortality is perfect, or has ever been, save Jesus only, or will ever be so How can Matt 5:48 be considered doable? It is through the atoning blood of Christ that perfection can be had. It is an ongoing process with perfection being the goal and not the present state of being (mortality), we must continually strive to keep this commandment and if we do so perfection is very obtainable.
The same could be sais of this man who posed the question in Matt 19:21.
If this man were to literally sell all that he had and follow Jesus Christ then he himself would have been rendered poor and needy in the temporal sense. I believe that Jesus was commanding this man to simply follow Him and give of his excess to the poor and needy and that God would bless him on his way to perfection.
It is interesting that this admonition is not universally given to everyone other than to say that we must impart of our substance as was the directive given in Luke 3:11
Luke 3:11
11 He answereth and saith unto them, He that hath two coats, let him impart to him that hath none; and he that hath meat, let him do likewise.
Notice that the Lord did not say give both coats away, only the excess.
I believe that the admonition to this man was Jesus way of showing this man his weakness, that it was not the intent of Jesus to expect this man to give himself into abject poverty, but only to exhibit the character needed to follow Jesus Christ by giving of his excess, remembering that a man need little temporal substance to survive, and then demonstrate his faith in Jesus Christ by doing everything that he could to alleviate the plight of the poor and needy thusly becoming a true disciple. Jesus was asking this man to change his mind set as much as his temporal condition.
Tithing is one thing it don't bother me. But when people get on TV an tell you to send your money to the Lord and they give you their address that bothers me. How do you know where that money is going? A Lexus? Rolls Royce? Mansion on the hill? Sorry these Tele-evanglists will stay broke if they wait on me to send them a dime. I just do not believe their message is genuine in any way shape or form.
dust1n
Zindīq
You have to pay attention to the fact that scripture is something that has been read over, debated, and picked apart over time. Jesus was teaching in a different time period, a time period in which it may have very well been possible to sell your belongings, which wouldn't be much to begin with.
Christ's message still rings true in many respects for today's people. But the truth is, if you were to follow absolutely everything that the Bible teaches, you'd easily be labeled clinically insane and institutionalized by your loved ones.
Christ's message still rings true in many respects for today's people. But the truth is, if you were to follow absolutely everything that the Bible teaches, you'd easily be labeled clinically insane and institutionalized by your loved ones.
dust1n
Zindīq
So how come strict Biblists, people who think that the Bible is a direct reprsentation of history still don't sell all of their items and give the benefits to the poor?
dust1n
Zindīq
I don't think there is a verse anywhere else in the Bible that says one should retain their material posessions. Even taking in the rest of the Bible, how does that change what the verse is saying to do.
dust1n
Zindīq
That's the point I'm starting to see. Why would Jesus want a rich man to give up his poessesions, the 'normal' people on the sermon of the mount to 'be perfect' (in some other fashion. I would imagine Jesus would have wanted both groups to be both definitions of 'perfect.'
Walkntune
Well-Known Member
I agree with your post.
FFH
Veteran Member
I just read your last comment and I'm pondering what you just said. Funny, I was just thinking the same thing that you just wrote.
But I'm still am not convinced that what you said was true for HIM ALONE, but it's TRUE FOR ALL OF US.
His riches were holding him back from heaven, so it would be better for him to sell all he had in order to gain the TRUE ETERNAL RICHES IN HEAVEN, than to hold onto TEMPORARY EARTHLY RICHES.
See what I mean ???
If he holds onto his TEMPORARY EARTHLY RICHES, he will lose out on the TRUE ETERNAL RICHES OF HEAVEN, which is true for all of us.
For me personally, money seems to get in the way of eternity, yet I know I need it to survive. In other words, I need a certain amount.
To have money and not make it our god is so difficult for everyone.
Money becomes a curse, when it is hoarded in abundance, it holds us back from the love of the LORD and from ETERNITY.
It's not worth it to hoard money.
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FFH
Veteran Member
The rich man was hoarding money, which is NOT GOOD, and will keep us from attaining eternal life with the Lord.
I dare say that no person on this forum is hoarding money, at least if you still have a mortage, rent, have no car, etc., like myself.
I'm sure that the VAST majority of people on this earth are NOT RICH.
You're NOT rich if you have a mortgage, rent, have no car, etc.
But if you have a house (paid for), a car (paid for) and money in the bank, BEYOND your daily needs, you MUST share it.
I dare say that no person on this forum is hoarding money, at least if you still have a mortage, rent, have no car, etc., like myself.
I'm sure that the VAST majority of people on this earth are NOT RICH.
You're NOT rich if you have a mortgage, rent, have no car, etc.
But if you have a house (paid for), a car (paid for) and money in the bank, BEYOND your daily needs, you MUST share it.
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Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
I didn't mean to imply that it was true for him alone. It's true for anyone who has that particular challenge. And that means it's true for a lot of people. I do think Jesus would have probably responded differently to him if he had been the kind of person who gave freely of his wealth but was weak in another area. I honestly don't think we are expected to give everything we have away, but we are expected to be charitable with our material wealth and be willing to deny ourselves some things in order that others will have what they need.
sonofskeptish
It is what it is
Any attempt to rationalize or live ones life according to scripture requires one to be extremely creative in ones enterpretation, and selective in what one accepts. Frankly. I'm glad people ignore some of the rubbish in the bible, so I'm not complaining, but in this case ignoring the instructions is entirely self-serving and based on greed. Kinda like some rich americans who think their poor counterparts don't deserve a minimal amount of universal heath care.
FFH
Veteran Member
The Lord was testing him to see where his heart was at.
His heart was obviously on his riches, and not on the Lord, nor the eternities to come, thus he made the unspoken statement that he would rather have his EARTHLY riches, than the RICHES of ETERNITY.
We must ask ourselves the same thing...
If faced with the SAME QUESTION, how would we answer, no matter how poor or rich we were, when asked the question.
I have next to nothing, compared to others, yet if the Lord asked me to give it all up and follow him (be a poor full time missionary again for the rest of my life), would I ???
I think we need to recognize that that is just what Jesus and his disciples consciously CHOSE to do.
Mathew "straightway" followed the Lord and "LEFT ALL".
Would we do the same if the Lord asked us too ???
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FFH
Veteran Member
I think we need to make the decision within our own hearts and minds to follow the Lord no matter what the cost or requirements the Lord sees fit to place upon us.
The Lord does not want us to hold anything back. We must be willing to give it all up, our children, spouse, brothers, sisters, friends, mothers, fathers, money, houses, lands, cars, etc. in order to attain the TRUE RICHES OF ETERNITY.
If something in this world is holding us back from the ETERNAL RICHES of heaven, we must let it go, give it up.
If money is a challenge, then let it all go. if it has become a god.
Better to deny oneself of all ungodliness in this life, rather than lose out on eternity (true riches of heaven).
The Lord does not want us to hold anything back. We must be willing to give it all up, our children, spouse, brothers, sisters, friends, mothers, fathers, money, houses, lands, cars, etc. in order to attain the TRUE RICHES OF ETERNITY.
If something in this world is holding us back from the ETERNAL RICHES of heaven, we must let it go, give it up.
If money is a challenge, then let it all go. if it has become a god.
Better to deny oneself of all ungodliness in this life, rather than lose out on eternity (true riches of heaven).
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FFH
Veteran Member
"Where your treasure is there will your heart be also"
~Jesus~
We are the Lord's treasure, his heart is on us and NOTHING else.
Should we not RETURN the favor ???
The Lord's love, joy and peace (Fruit of the Tree of Life) is the most precious and valuable gift that he offer us, nothing on earth or heaven compares to it.
1 Nephi 15: 36 (Book of Mormon)
36 Wherefore, the wicked are rejected from the righteous, and also from that tree of life, whose fruit is most precious and most desirable above all other fruits; yea, and it is the greatest of all the gifts of God. And thus I spake unto my brethren. Amen.
Music video
Iona - Treasure
Live
Iona - Treasure
Live
IONA - TREASURE
~Jesus~
We are the Lord's treasure, his heart is on us and NOTHING else.
Should we not RETURN the favor ???
The Lord's love, joy and peace (Fruit of the Tree of Life) is the most precious and valuable gift that he offer us, nothing on earth or heaven compares to it.
1 Nephi 15: 36 (Book of Mormon)
36 Wherefore, the wicked are rejected from the righteous, and also from that tree of life, whose fruit is most precious and most desirable above all other fruits; yea, and it is the greatest of all the gifts of God. And thus I spake unto my brethren. Amen.
Music video
Iona - Treasure
Live
Iona - Treasure
Live
IONA - TREASURE
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