Jews in Germany, Hitler era

If we can be civil long enough, I would like to discuss something of interest to me.

I want to question and examine the motives behind what Hitler did.

Hitler often talked about what he felt was happening to Germany. A place he felt was becoming less German due to influx of Jewish People.

Is there any truth to the claim that Jewish people in particular began to have heavy influence in the banks, government, and other controlling factions of Germany?

And even if this were true, it does not speak for the will of all Jewish people, right? Since Hitler seems to not be able to make this distinction, does that tell us it was never really about Jewish people, but rather just to be in power?

Are there people out there that believe that Hitler did all he did truly because he thought Jewish people were less than human?

Finally, was Hitler nice to his non-Jewish citizens, in the short time he was in power? Or was he a tyrant to anyone and everyone?

I hope this doesn't offend anyone, it is a delicate subject and sometimes hard to discuss in a respectful enough manner.

Many Jews did hold high positions, but it wasn't as if all the millions of Jews he killed or persecuted were in control of the control. I think Hitler did hate the Jews but his plans was based more on strategy than anything.

Hitler obviously was unhappy as were most of Germany for the high reparations and other terms that came out of the unconditional surrender of WWI. He also knew that Jews were also disliked, and even hated, by much of Germany. A central part of Hitler's plan to mobilize the nation required extreme form of nationalism. I suspect he used the persecution and killing of Jews as a focal point of hatred and to personify that extreme sense of us vs. them at a very basic level.

My summarize my personal opinion - he began with a genuine dislike for the Jews. The conception of his plans for the persecution and murder of Jews first came in the need to mobilize extreme nationalism and his plan sought to make that extreme, perhaps by getting everyone's collective hands dirty in the name of nationalism so there's no turning back. However, at some point, his personal dislike combined with mounting frustration of the losing war efforts may have caused him to go completely ape **** and start the genocide. So it was a back and forth switch from -- emotional to 'strategic' back to emotional.

Neo-Logic said:

Many Jews did hold high positions, but it wasn't as if all the millions of Jews he killed or persecuted were in control of the control. I think Hitler did hate the Jews but his plans was based more on strategy than anything.

Hitler obviously was unhappy as were most of Germany for the high reparations and other terms that came out of the unconditional surrender of WWI. He also knew that Jews were also disliked, and even hated, by much of Germany. A central part of Hitler's plan to mobilize the nation required extreme form of nationalism. I suspect he used the persecution and killing of Jews as a focal point of hatred and to personify that extreme sense of us vs. them at a very basic level.

My summarize my personal opinion - he began with a genuine dislike for the Jews. The conception of his plans for the persecution and murder of Jews first came in the need to mobilize extreme nationalism and his plan sought to make that extreme, perhaps by getting everyone's collective hands dirty in the name of nationalism so there's no turning back. However, at some point, his personal dislike combined with mounting frustration of the losing war efforts may have caused him to go completely ape **** and start the genocide. So it was a back and forth switch from -- emotional to 'strategic' back to emotional.

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So why exactly were the majority of Germans unhappy as you say, and more specifically, did they collectively feel it was the Jewish people's fault they felt unhappy.

Finally, did large groups of Jewish people do anything so troubling as to truly cause this dislike of the Jewish people? It is easy to throw cheap remarks out like "Jews own the banks" or something similar, but that is childish antics. I am curious about any serious wrongs they did as a majority group (most Jewish people in Germany), did they actually do anything wrong?

Neo-Logic said:

Many Jews did hold high positions, but it wasn't as if all the millions of Jews he killed or persecuted were in control of the control. I think Hitler did hate the Jews but his plans was based more on strategy than anything.

Hitler obviously was unhappy as were most of Germany for the high reparations and other terms that came out of the unconditional surrender of WWI. He also knew that Jews were also disliked, and even hated, by much of Germany. A central part of Hitler's plan to mobilize the nation required extreme form of nationalism. I suspect he used the persecution and killing of Jews as a focal point of hatred and to personify that extreme sense of us vs. them at a very basic level.

My summarize my personal opinion - he began with a genuine dislike for the Jews. The conception of his plans for the persecution and murder of Jews first came in the need to mobilize extreme nationalism and his plan sought to make that extreme, perhaps by getting everyone's collective hands dirty in the name of nationalism so there's no turning back. However, at some point, his personal dislike combined with mounting frustration of the losing war efforts may have caused him to go completely ape **** and start the genocide. So it was a back and forth switch from -- emotional to 'strategic' back to emotional.

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I think the first mass murder of Jews by the Nazis was in Poland in 1940, well before Hitler was "frustrated of the loosing war efforts".

The Jews in Germany did not do anything wrong, nor were they in any sense dominant.

The anti-semitism of the Nazis was entirely fear mongering. The Nazis successfully appealed to "traditional" (i.e. religious) anti-semitism in order to use this for their ends. Thus, they tried to connect "Bolshevism" and "World Judaism aiming at global dominance" with the traditional racist stereotype of Jews as being morally corrupt.

Most Jews in Germany were Jews just ethnically, but not religious. A lot of them had converted to Protestantism in the early 19 century. They were not overrepresented in positions of power, rather to the contrary. However, a number of progressive intellectuals were of Jewish origin. Of course Hitler hated them.

After Germany lost world war one (1914-1918), there was the myth that the reason for losing the war was not defeat but treason by those undersigning the capitulation. The conspiracy theory (called dabber stag theory) was that while the German soldier was unbeaten in the battlefield, communists and Jews and other anti-patriotic elements were selling out the home country. This was very unfair, as many German Jews heroically fought in WWI in the German army. However, the theroy found fertile ground, maybe because the contracts of Versailles were quite unfair on Germany, putting a huge burden of reparation payments on it, even though it is today generally accepted that WWI was not alone Germany's fault (In contrast to WWII).

The Weimar republic did not do too well, it was neither politically nor economically stable. There was ongoing violence, almost civil war, between right and left wing extremists. In 1919, there was a failed communist/anarchist revolution. At the same time, some of the unemployed soldiers did not give back their arms but entered right wing paramilitary units. The latter was the set in which Hitler developed. His paramilitary group failed gripping power in an attempted coup in 1921, after which Hitler was imprisoned. He wrote "Mein Kampf" in jail. The problem of the Weimar republic was that they were very lenient on the right wing extremists, who had powerful friends. Hitler was released much earlier than he should have been. Similarly, even though the many paramilitary units were completely illegal, they were parading in public without being bothered by the authorities. For the first ten years of their existence, the Nazis were mainly paramilitary thugs trying to intimidate their political enemies. However, although initially too rowdy to be deemed acceptable, Hitler somehow managed to make friends with some influential traditional German Nationalists, who supported his election to chancellor.

Most people took the anti-semitism for mere propaganda before Hitler got in power. Once in power, he acted quick, and publicly dissenting became soon very dangerous. Racist laws excluding Jews from many jobs and all influential positions followed. The Nazis then used mass media, particularly radio, for propaganda. People were more prone to believe such propaganda than they would today.

What could the Jews have possibly done to anyone to deserve the murder of six million?

SkinnyCheruscian said:

After Germany lost world war one (1914-1918), there was the myth that the reason for losing the war was not defeat but treason by those undersigning the capitulation. The conspiracy theory (called dabber stag theory) was that while the German soldier was unbeaten in the battlefield, communists and Jews and other anti-patriotic elements were selling out the home country.

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I think this was largely a result of the propaganda during the war: the true nature of the progress of the war was hidden and suppressed, so the general public thought things were going much better than they really were. When Germany surrendered, it came as a huge shock to many people.

SkinnyCheruscian said:

This was very unfair, as many German Jews heroically fought in WWI in the German army. However, the theroy found fertile ground, maybe because the contracts of Versailles were quite unfair on Germany, putting a huge burden of reparation payments on it, even though it is today generally accepted that WWI was not alone Germany's fault (In contrast to WWII).

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No, but it was pretty well the only power left on the losing side. The Austro-Hungarian empire had collapsed, the Ottoman empire was in the process of collapsing, and Bulgaria was tiny and poor. There was a strong sentiment among the general public of the allies that the war had created a "blood debt" that had to be paid by someone, so it kinda fell by default on the Germans, who came to the table thinking that because they had overthrown the Kaiser, they'd receive favourable terms like Austria and Hungary: effectively, their thought was that the Germans who had caused all the trouble were gone, so why would the Allies take their frustrations out on this new, friendlier German government that had never done anything to anybody?

So, the German people first had the shock of losing the war, and then had the shock of the actual terms of the Treaty of Versailles. I think this left them confused, frustrated and ripe for someone to come along and point to a "cause" that they could use as the focus of that frustration.

itwillend said:

If we can be civil long enough, I would like to discuss something of interest to me.

I want to question and examine the motives behind what Hitler did.

Hitler often talked about what he felt was happening to Germany. A place he felt was becoming less German due to influx of Jewish People.

Is there any truth to the claim that Jewish people in particular began to have heavy influence in the banks, government, and other controlling factions of Germany?

And even if this were true, it does not speak for the will of all Jewish people, right? Since Hitler seems to not be able to make this distinction, does that tell us it was never really about Jewish people, but rather just to be in power?

Are there people out there that believe that Hitler did all he did truly because he thought Jewish people were less than human?

Finally, was Hitler nice to his non-Jewish citizens, in the short time he was in power? Or was he a tyrant to anyone and everyone?

I hope this doesn't offend anyone, it is a delicate subject and sometimes hard to discuss in a respectful enough manner.

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Well, he did openly state Jews were inferior to the Aryan race. Granted, I think it was a mixture of both.

itwillend said:

... A place he felt was becoming less German due to influx of Jewish People.

Is there any truth to the claim that Jewish people in particular began to have heavy influence in the banks, government, and other controlling factions of Germany?...

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I'm sure there was no 'influx of Jewish People' as Germany was not at all a good place to live, at that time. Never heard of any influx at least. Likewise I doubt there was any increase in 'influence' only the perception of such as people looked around for a scapegoat to blame their economic misery on.

SkinnyCheruscian said:

...The anti-semitism of the Nazis was entirely fear mongering....

Most Jews in Germany were Jews just ethnically, but not religious. A lot of them had converted to Protestantism in the early 19 century...

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Overall, a very accurate interpretation from what I've learned of the era. Except for a slightly different variation on the 'Protestantism' bit. Germany was the birthplace of the Reform movement, and while the institutions they created were modeled after and very similar to Protestant ones, they were not in fact Protestant. So I'd disagree that a 'lot of them converted' but would point out that a lot modified their religious institutions to match the norms of the larger society. For all the good it did them.

itwillend said:

Jews in Germany, Hitler era

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Wouldn´t want to be in their shoes.

Hitler was a racist, like about everyone in the Western world back then. One was considered a bit crazy if one thought blacks were of the same value than whites.

Hitler was more harsh towards jews however, because they were a more visible minority than any other. So he turned them into a scapegoat for Germany´s loss in WW1. And then he killed millions of them.

I think Xafwax is probably the most close to the reason. Jews were a minority and were hated by many simply because of that. Humans have a long history of hating minorities, and during that time, much of the Western world hated Jews. Even before Hitlers Germany, Jews were being discriminated all over Europe. Hitler just took it to a completely new level.

First of all, let me state emphatically that I do not believe there was ANY justification for Hitler's actions toward the Jews of Europe.

That being said, keep in mind that Germany was in a deep, terrible recession when Hitler came to power. There was a struggle for power, which included coups, assasinations, etc. These were violent, dark times for Germany.

Communism was on the rise in Russia, and there were many Eastern Europeans, including many Jews, who were very pro-communism. I think that Hitler used the powerful combo of fear of communism coupled with anti-Semitism to fuel hatred of the Jews and to unite a fearful and desperate populace.

By the time he had risen to power, via the Night of the Long Knives and the burning of the Reichstag, and other underhanded, violent events, it was too late - if you spoke out against him, even if you were an otherwise law-abiding German, off you went to Dachau for years of starvation and hard labor - or worse.

This is an oversimplification but it's a start when it comes to unraveling what seems to be a mystery in retrospect - how a civilized, Western civilization could slide into such a state of depravity and horror as Germany did in the first half of the 20th century.

Kathryn said:

This is an oversimplification but it's a start when it comes to unraveling what seems to be a mystery in retrospect - how a civilized, Western civilization could slide into such a state of depravity and horror as Germany did in the first half of the 20th century.

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I don´t think it´s a real mystery. Europeans were elitists. Just look at any biology text book from the 1930s that had a chapter about humans. People were classified based on their skin colour and other physical features. It was more mainstream to think that whites were a completely different race from blacks, asians etc. Even Japanese thought they were of superior race compared to other Asians.

When racial and nationalist dignity is combined with a suffering country that lost a war it was supposed to win and an economic crisis that was never supposed to come, the more logical outcome was a nazi regime.

It wasn´t until the 60´s when the west finally started to remove racism from its jurisdiction. Apartheid didn´t fall until just 20 years ago.

This may make you better understand why Hitler was supported:
http://www.simulation-argument.com/classic.html

Click on World War II and Post-Imperialism and then read the story of a German woman. Eye-opener for someone who wonders why would anybody ever support Hitler or his wars.