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...that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

no-body

no-body

Well-Known Member
I've always been intrigued by John 3:16 what are the larger theological implications and what does it mean exactly? All you have to believe is that Jesus Christ came down to earth to die for our sins yada yada yada and you get a get out of jail free card?

I've always taken an esoteric view and consider belief in Christ as a zen thing. It is difficult to wrap my brain around the literal approach to this statement. Why should God care if we believed He came down to earth to die for our sins?
 
dust1n

dust1n

Zindīq
no-body said:
I've always been intrigued by John 3:16 what are the larger theological implications and what does it mean exactly? All you have to believe is that Jesus Christ came down to earth to die for our sins yada yada yada and you get a get out of jail free card?

I've always taken an esoteric view and consider belief in Christ as a zen thing. It is difficult to wrap my brain around the literal approach to this statement. Why should God care if we believed He came down to earth to die for our sins?
Click to expand...


Why else would you believe it if there weren't repercussions for not?
 
no-body

no-body

Well-Known Member
Kind of disappointed in the responses to this "cause God said so" is a mystical answer, I could understand this if those who quote John 3:16 didn't want us to take it literally and expect us to believe it is the only way to salvation.

I've read all sorts of reasoning for Christs death and resurrection and why it saves us or whatever but why is it so important to God that we believe it as an idea? If the blood sacrifice washes away all sins then why not even non-believe in Christ? Am I being thick, is there some sort of obvious theologian I should read for the answer to this cause it feels like there is.
 
Reverend Rick

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
no-body said:
Kind of disappointed in the responses to this "cause God said so" is a mystical answer, I could understand this if those who quote John 3:16 didn't want us to take it literally and expect us to believe it is the only way to salvation.

I've read all sorts of reasoning for Christs death and resurrection and why it saves us or whatever but why is it so important to God that we believe it as an idea? If the blood sacrifice washes away all sins then why not even non-believe in Christ? Am I being thick, is there some sort of obvious theologian I should read for the answer to this cause it feels like there is.
Click to expand...

The only answer I could come up with is, it is important that people believe in it as an idea or Christianity would fade away?
 
M

Man of Faith

Well-Known Member
Why did God care that we disobeyd him in the garden? Because of the change he knew was coming. The way the world is today with its sin and death is not the way it could have been. Why does God care if we accept or reject his son? Because of the change that he has for us. Sin and death came into the world by one man and hope and eternal life also came by one man. I suggest that the OP read salvation experiences to try to understand the concept of redemption of sin. I know of no Christian that cannot comprehend this. If you don't believe you can't be converted from a lover of sin and self to a lover of God. If you don't believe that you need a savior you can't get saved. If you don't see yourself as dirty before God you don't want to become clean.

Here is a pretty good salvation story you can start with on page 8 of the doc. Also read about those of other faiths that come to Christ in order to to get a better understanding of what Jesus did on the cross. http://www.freechurch.org/pdf/monthlyrecord/sept08.pdf
 
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Mr Cheese

Mr Cheese

Well-Known Member
It depends on what you see Christ as...for example

Thomas Aquinas stated that there are ONLY 3 movements in the universe
straight line.. masculine..the penis the rod..the sword..air and fire
circular vagina womb cup..shield water and earth
and
obtuse..a unification of male and female changing direction mid-flow serpentine .the kabalistic lightning flash..the chord quintessence aether..the Christ..

Rosicrucian « Prayers and Reflections


800px-Small_Red_Rose.JPG
 
Baydwin

Baydwin

Well-Known Member
Man of Faith said:
Why did God care that we disobeyd him in the garden? Because of the change he knew was coming. The way the world is today with its sin and death is not the way it could have been. Why does God care if we accept or reject his son? Because of the change that he has for us. Sin and death came into the world by one man and hope and eternal life also came by one man. I suggest that the OP read salvation experiences to try to understand the concept of redemption of sin. I know of no Christian that cannot comprehend this. If you don't believe you can't be converted from a lover of sin and self to a lover of God. If you don't believe that you need a savior you can't get saved. If you don't see yourself as dirty before God you don't want to become clean.
Click to expand...
This doesn't make any sense. Throughout the New Testament God is portrayed as an infinitely loving, forgiving and merciful God.
Saying that Jesus came to wash away our sins, but then adding that it only works for those that believe in him, is making Jesus's sacrifice conditional. Saving someone on a condition is not merciful or loving. In fact the only thing it is similar to is extortion, "if you don't believe in me, I won't save you from hell". It's no different to a protection racket.
 
Evandr

Evandr

Stripling Warrior
Baydwin said:
This doesn't make any sense. Throughout the New Testament God is portrayed as an infinitely loving, forgiving and merciful God.
Saying that Jesus came to wash away our sins, but then adding that it only works for those that believe in him, is making Jesus's sacrifice conditional. Saving someone on a condition is not merciful or loving. In fact the only thing it is similar to is extortion, "if you don't believe in me, I won't save you from hell". It's no different to a protection racket.
Click to expand...

OK, I have to chime in here. What I am about to say is in about as simplistic of terms as I can put it. There is far too little space here to properly expound upon this topic but I think you will get the idea.

One of the great mistakes of Christian theology is the belief that there is nothing that God cannot do If He chooses to. That begs a question; can God do something that nullifies His Power and Authority? If you say "yes" than you are admitting that the power of God can have limitations, if you say no then, again, you are saying that God has limitations. Either way the Idea that God is without his limitations is a fallacy.

One such limitation is that Mercy cannot rob justice. If God were to try to extend mercy contrary to the lawful and unyielding demands of Justice then He would be guilty of sin and He would cease to be God. Justice must be satisfied or the whole of creation would fall apart and unorganized chaos would result, all things becoming a compound in one.

Jesus Christ paid the price of Sin so that mankind may be redeemed. What it is that Christ did for all was to guarantee resurrection, a reuniting of the spirit and body, BUT, the ransom for sin is not guaranteed to all because Christ's sinless sacrifice did not nullify the demands of justice, it provided a second path around the unyielding demands of justice with regard to sin. Christ's suffering transcended all creation and was able to tilt the scale in his favor, something that only a sinless person could do because a sinner cannot atone for sin. In effect, that aspect of all creation that would demand justice for sin was now indebted to Christ sufficiently that Christ was able to invoke mercy without robbing justice by being able to establish a second path around the original demands of justice whereby a sinner could be extended mercy without denying justice it's due.
This still leaves Jesus Christ and His Father Eloheim helpless to extend forgiveness to anyone who refuses to take advantage of this second path.

It isn’t about what God wants; it is about what has to be for the whole of creation to be maintained. God is doing everything He can to help us, up to and including sending His only begotten to suffer in ways we cannot even begin to imagine so that all creation and the associated demands of justice could have a way opened up to extend a comparatively easy and merciful path back to the presence of God.

Mere belief in Christ is not enough to warrant forgiveness, diligence in keeping His commandments is. His commandments define the second path but it is up to each and every individual to walk the path themselves. God cannot force someone to walk the path nor can He save someone who refuses to heed the warnings and follow the commandments of Christ, commandments that one could accurately call directives needed to obtain exaltation in the Celestial Kingdoms of God. In short, God’s hands are tied because extending the blessings of exaltation to all, those who walk the path and those who don’t would deny justice it’s due and that would collapse everything.
 
Tiapan

Tiapan

Grumpy Old Man
Ever heard of the King with no clothes story?
Circular argument for people to throw common sense out the window and convince them selves that nonsense is correct.

Cheers
 
no-body

no-body

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the replies... I've read lot's of "born again" stories before and studied the arguments given:

My question again is why does believing Jesus justify his actions? Why does specifically He need us to believe in the blood sacrifice to justify it? How does believing in an idea save us? I'm not asking why he needed to do what he did that has been covered before elsewhere ad nauseum.

I've read the New testament twice and cannot find the answer to this. I respect that people who belive in Christ have a mystical connection and they've found a way that works for them, but if you expect everyone to worship God in the same literal way then He must give us the answers in a literal way when we ask or else everyone is free to find the path as they see fit.
 
blackout

blackout

Violet.
If we stripped away everything else,
and read only the words directly attributed to jesus...

WHAT IS IT exactly..
HE would want us to "believe"?

Is there something we are to do?... WITH belief?

Believing "in" something... or someone's teachings...
could mean SO MANY things.
Especially depending on what you have discerned
those "teachings" to be.
 
Mr Cheese

Mr Cheese

Well-Known Member
UltraViolet said:
If we stripped away everything else,
and read only the words directly attributed to jesus...

WHAT IS IT exactly..
HE would want us to "believe"?

Is there something we are to do?... WITH belief?

Believing "in" something... or someone's teachings...
could mean SO MANY things.
Especially depending on what you have discerned
those "teachings" to be.
Click to expand...

I just happen to have that...

secret jesus 1

12.

(Thomas 20.) The disciples said to Jesus : "Tell us what the Kingdom of Heaven is like."
He said to them : "It is like a mustard seed, the smallest of all seeds. But when it falls on tilled soil,
it produces a big plant and becomes a shelter for the birds of the sky."

(Thomas 32.) "A fortified city built on a high mountain cannot fall, nor can it be hidden."

( Matthew 7-24. Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them,
I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

(Matthew 7- 25. And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew,
and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

( Matthew 7- 26. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not,
shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

( Matthew 7- 27. And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew,
and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

(Thomas 66.) "Show Me the stone which the builders have rejected. It is the cornerstone."
 
M

Man of Faith

Well-Known Member
Baydwin said:
This doesn't make any sense. Throughout the New Testament God is portrayed as an infinitely loving, forgiving and merciful God..
Click to expand...
That is true, but not unconditional. Jesus talked about hell more than he talked about heaven and said you must be born again.
 
M

Man of Faith

Well-Known Member
no-body said:
Thanks for the replies... I've read lot's of "born again" stories before and studied the arguments given:

My question again is why does believing Jesus justify his actions? Why does specifically He need us to believe in the blood sacrifice to justify it? How does believing in an idea save us? I'm not asking why he needed to do what he did that has been covered before elsewhere ad nauseum.

I've read the New testament twice and cannot find the answer to this. I respect that people who belive in Christ have a mystical connection and they've found a way that works for them, but if you expect everyone to worship God in the same literal way then He must give us the answers in a literal way when we ask or else everyone is free to find the path as they see fit.
Click to expand...

It's not believing in an idea that saves you, it's believing in the person, Jesus. Just like believing in the idea of a steak dinner does not fill you up.
 
no-body

no-body

Well-Known Member
Man of Faith said:
It's not believing in an idea that saves you, it's believing in the person, Jesus. Just like believing in the idea of a steak dinner does not fill you up.
Click to expand...

But believing in a person is still only an idea, in your mind.

You are implying that belief in the blood sacrifice gives some type of mystical connection to God.

Since I don't get the warm fuzzies when I "believe in Christ" I'm just going to go on assuming that everyone has their own path and Jesus Christ is just one of those paths.
 
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