Question for Christians

jaareshiah · Feb 14, 2010

Ba'al said:
Some people have died never having seen a bible in their life. These people will be punished? Rubbish.

Over the course of almost two thousand years since the completion of the Bible in about 98 C.E. after the apostle John penned his three letters and book of John, perhaps hundreds of millions of people have never seen a Bible. For some, merely possessing the Bible could result in the death penalty, such as when the Catholic Church reiterated its condemnation of Bible translations in the vernacular or common tongue and enforced it in Spain in 1557.

However, of those that have died "never having seen a Bible in their life", many will be given another opportunity to know who God is. These are not "punished" as the churches have taught, that these go to a "hellfire." No such place exists, but the common grave of mankind, called sheol in Hebrew (Job 14:13) and hades in Greek (Acts 2:31), is what the Bible says that those who have died go to, awaiting a resurrection from the dead.(John 5:28, 29)

The apostle Paul wrote that "there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous."(Acts 24:15) Hence, both "righteous and the unrighteous" will come back to life on the earth during the thousand year reign of Jesus Christ for the purpose of giving all of these an opportunity to live forever on the earth.(Matt 5:5)

These will now have the prospect of reading the Bible for themselves and conforming to God's laws and principles. Revelation 20:13 says that "the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."(King James Bible)

Ba'al · Feb 14, 2010

jaareshiah said:
However, of those that have died "never having seen a Bible in their life", many will be given another opportunity to know who God is.

These people do not need a bible to know God. Those who believe in God, might know God by reading Bhagavad Gita, Talmud, Quran, Zohar, or just by listening to his local shaman. Even if one lives in total isolation God can find him. Do you think God would only reveal the Christian path and all scripture is a fabrication except the bible?

Rio Sabinas · Feb 14, 2010

First, a couple of definitions that I believe fit any Religion, any time
in History.

Faith - Your belief in God / Gods.
Religon - The mechanism by which you aquire & maintain your Faith.

It's a matter of interpretation as to how you view a Holy Text.
Example - The King James version of the Bible.
(the active word here is "version")
Compare the example to the original Hebrew texts & you will see
what I mean. No Religion is immune. Different interpretations equals
conflict. Different Religons equals conflict.
"If you don't believe as I believe, God is going to punish you." is the
common theme. Some choose to do the punishing in the name of God.

jaareshiah · Feb 14, 2010

comradesoul said:
Odd. Since there was no such thing as the Bible when Proverbs was written.

With the completing of the book of Proverbs (in about 716 B.C.E.) perhaps only 18 books of the now completed Bible of 66 "books" had been written down.(Greek bi·bli´a, meaning "little books") The book of Psalms was composed by various loyal servants of God over a period of about one thousand years. The Bible was completed in about 98 C.E., with the three letters of John and the book of John.

God started with the book of Genesis in 1513 B.C.E., and progressively added "little books" to the now completed Bible, over a period of some sixteen hundred years, using some 40 different "secretaries." Yet, as the apostle Paul wrote: "All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work."(2 Tim 3:16, 17)

Gradually, over a period of several thousand years, God unveiled his eternal purpose through the pages of the various "little books", until the book of Revelation was written in about 96 C.E., though 4 more books by John were added about 2 years later, bringing the Bible to completion.

Thus, we have access to all the Bible whereas those who lived during the time that Proverbs was written were unable to see specific details of how God was going to restore what Adam lost for all of mankind, the hope of living on a paradise earth.(Ps 37:29; Rev 21:3-5)

jaareshiah · Feb 14, 2010

Ba'al said:
These people do not need a bible to know God. Those who believe in God, might know God by reading Bhagavad Gita, Talmud, Quran, Zohar, or just by listening to his local shaman. Even if one lives in total isolation God can find him. Do you think God would only reveal the Christian path and all scripture is a fabrication except the bible?

There is only one true God. Just as a safe's lock has only one set of numbers that will open it's door, so likewise there is only one God who is the Creator of all things and only he can give life everlasting on the earth in perfection with genuine love in all its four corners. The prophet Isaiah wrote: "Have you not come to know or have you not heard? Jehovah, the Creator of the extremities of the earth, is a God to time indefinite."(Isa 40:28; "everlasting God", King James Bible) Only the Bible lays out how mankind came into the sickly condition of sin and death(Gen 3; Rom 5:12), and how to remove this ailing state.(Isa 25:6-8; 33:24)

Many of mankind have followed other gods, but these are an "unreality".(Isa 41:29) Hope based on these have proved to be none at all. However, of the God of the Bible, Jehovah, Joshua told the nation of Israel that "you well know with all your hearts and with all your souls that not one word out of all the good words that Jehovah your God has spoken to you has failed. They have all come true for you. Not one word of them has failed.(Josh 23:14)

Any word that Jehovah God has given as a promise, has came true or will come true, even if the prophecy is fulfilled several hundred or thousands of years later. Have any of the "gods"of the nations done this ? Have any of the gods of the nations, such as Allah, provided solid assurance of mankind's removal from the sin that covers all of us and that results in death ? From a different angle, the Gita views women as of inferior birth and classes them with menial slaves. Is this just and reasonable ?(Bhagavad Gita 9:32) How does this make women feel ? Does the God of the Bible feel the same way ? No, for God made woman to serve as a "complement" to the man, as his loving helper, working to accomplish work unitedly as his mate.(Gen 2:20)

God is organized, and uses only one channel for the transmittal of his words. Psalms 147:19, 20 says that Jehovah "is telling his word to Jacob, His regulations and his judicial decisions to Israel. He has not done that way to any other nation; and as for his judicial decisions, they have not known them." The apostle Paul wrote that "they (the Jews alone) were entrusted with the sacred pronouncements of God."(Rom 3:2)

Jesus said it succinctly: "Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate (singular) and cramped the road (singular) leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it."(Matt 7:13,14) Thus, God has only one channel for salvation or "life", not as many feel that "all roads (plural) lead to God."

Ba'al · Feb 14, 2010

jaareshiah said:
There is only one true God. Just as a safe's lock has only one set of numbers that will open it's door, so likewise there is only one God who is the Creator of all things and only he can give life everlasting on the earth in perfection with genuine love in all its four corners.

So you are saying that ALL scripture is a fabrication except the bible? Just answer yes or no.

URAVIP2ME · Feb 14, 2010

Ba'al said:
Some people have died never having seen a bible in their life. These people will be punished? Rubbish.

With the exception of the unforgivable sin of Matthew 12:32; Hebrews 6:4-6, the words of Romans 6:7 apply to all the rest:
The one who has died is freed or acquitted from sin. That does not mean innocent from their sins, but pardoned in the sense that a governor's pardon can free or acquit a person from all charges against him so that the charges are no longer valid or no longer stick.

That is why there will be a resurrection of both just and unjust, righteous and unrighteous- Acts 24:15. Because the dead have died they have paid the price for sin in full which is death according to Romans 6:23.
Their death 'stamps' the asking price of sin as: "Paid In Full"

The Christian era opened up the way to heaven. Those that died before Jesus died (Acts 2:34) have the prospect of being resurrected back to life and living forever on a paradise garden-like earth during Jesus peaceful 1000-year reign over earth. New books or scrolls will be opened at that time and they can, along with the living ones of Matthew (25:31,32;46), end up with their names entered into the Book of Life.

jaareshiah · Feb 15, 2010

Ba'al said:
So you are saying that ALL scripture is a fabrication except the bible? Just answer yes or no.

Yes. Only the Bible is from our Creator, God.

comradesoul · Feb 15, 2010

jaareshiah said:
Yes. Only the Bible is from our Creator, God.

This is an absolutely nonsensical statement and a good time for me to exit this thread.

The Absolute Truth exists eternally as God is eternal and as His children are eternal and eternally the Lord has been revealing Himself to them through various means. The small minded sectarian fanatics of all religious persuasions assume God only talks to them and their group of religious believers from a certain book, at a certain point in time and in a certain geographical region(mid East in this case) on only one tiny planet that they now inhabit neglecting the rest of the universe(s). They always insist there can be no more to be learned then what is contained in their little books somehow never understanding that there is no end to the revelations the Lord gives concerning Himself because He Himself is unlimited.

And to paraphrase Lord Jesus Christ, "There are many other things I have to teach you but you cannot bear them now, but when the Holy Spirit comes to you He shall teach you all things."

This means things which are not contained in your little Bible my friends as said by Jesus Himself . But of course the question remains will you be open to His voice whens He speaks or will you tell Him to shut up because what he is saying to you is not contained in your little book.

That is up to each of us as individuals.

Good day.

Wandered Off · Feb 15, 2010

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * STAFF ADVISORY * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Thread moved from a non-debate area to Scriptural Debates.

URAVIP2ME · Feb 15, 2010

comradesoul said:
And to paraphrase Lord Jesus Christ, "There are many other things I have to teach you but you cannot bear them now, but when the Holy Spirit comes to you He shall teach you all things."
This means things which are not contained in your little Bible my friends as said by Jesus Himself . But of course the question remains will you be open to His voice whens He speaks or will you tell Him to shut up because what he is saying to you is not contained in your little book.
That is up to each of us as individuals.
Good day.

"Now". Jesus said to his disciples at John 16:12,13 (Mark 4:33) It was "Now" or at "Present" that his disciples could not bear the many other things Jesus had to additionally say to them. Such as: more was to come to light for them at the Last Supper about his death.

When did the holy spirit come to teach Jesus followers?
Wasn't it at Pentecost ?
They were able to instantly speak to others in the other's mother tongue or language in order to proclaim the good news of God's kingdom.

2nd Timothy (3:16,17) says 'all' Scripture is inspired by God.
So 'all' Scripture is beneficial to set things straight.

Jesus believed the Scriptures (God's Word) at John (17:17) is religious truth. Jesus referred to or quoted from Scripture as the basis or source of his faith and belief. Accordingly, (1Peter 2:21) shouldn't Jesus be our model or example to follow in his recorded teachings?

Ba'al · Feb 15, 2010

URAVIP2ME said:
"Now". Jesus said to his disciples at John 16:12,13 (Mark 4:33) It was "Now" or at "Present" that his disciples could not bear the many other things Jesus had to additionally say to them. Such as: more was to come to light for them at the Last Supper about his death.

I seriously doubt that Jesus was speaking of the Holy Spirit in John(6:12-13)"I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come." The muslim will tell you John is speaking of Mohammed. It makes more sense because:

1. the holy spirit was there since the beginning. Gen (1:1-2 1) "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."
And was with them before Jesus birth. Luke(1:41) "And it happened, when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, that the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit." So the Holy Spirit was always there.

2. It says Jesus had MANY things to teach them. What has the Holy Spirit taught anyone in 2000 years that Jesus didn't already teach?

3. John says "for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak". And the Quran was produced from Mohammed reciting what the angel Gabriel revealed.

4. Jesus states in John 16:7 that the helper won't come UNLESS Jesus departs and we know the Holy Spirit was already there. "Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you."

URAVIP2ME said:
2nd Timothy (3:16,17) says 'all' Scripture is inspired by God.
So 'all' Scripture is beneficial to set things straight.

URAVIP2ME, are you correcting Timothy?

URAVIP2ME said:
Jesus believed the Scriptures (God's Word) at John (17:17) is religious truth. Jesus referred to or quoted from Scripture as the basis or source of his faith and belief. Accordingly, (1Peter 2:21) shouldn't Jesus be our model or example to follow in his recorded teachings?

I think Jesus is a good example for people of many religions.

URAVIP2ME · Feb 15, 2010

Ba'al-

What does 2nd Timothy 3:16,17 say that I would be correcting Paul about?

Right, holy spirit was there since the beginning and was the active force that was used in the physical creation and heavenly. Or as Psalm 104:30 says God sends forth his spirit and they are created..... Numbers 11:17 God can take his spirit upon one and put it upon another. And God can use his good spirit to instruct as Nehemiah 9:20 states
God can use his good spirit to teach and lead.... as Psalm 143:10 states.
God feels distressed when one vexes his holy spirit as Isaiah 63:10,11 says.
Or resists it as Acts 7:51 brings out.

Acts 2:4,6 they were all filled with holy spirit, and that force enabled them to speak in foreign languages to proclaim the good news of God's kingdom in another's mother tongue. Or as Ezekiel 36:27 says God put his spirit within them. So this special 'power' came to his followers at Pentecost because Jesus had first gone away. -Hebrews 9:24.

Would you agree that today God uses his holy spirit to protect from any enemy trying to destroy the Bible, and protect from anyone or anything that would try to stop the proclaiming of the good news of God's kingdom on a global scale as Matthew 24:14 says?

Ba'al · Feb 15, 2010

URAVIP2ME said:
Would you agree that today God uses his holy spirit to protect from any enemy trying to destroy the Bible,

No. We don't have the original manuscripts of the bible. The bible we have today is a compilation of copies of copies which from judging how different they are from each other, is certain they aren't the original "word". That is not God preserving his word.

URAVIP2ME said:
and protect from anyone or anything that would try to stop the proclaiming of the good news of God's kingdom on a global scale as Matthew 24:14 says?

No. God's proclaimers have always been persecuted.

jtartar · Feb 16, 2010

comradesoul said:
Why do Christians consider the Old Testament as scripture relating to them? I don't get it . There is so much in there that is clearly not relevant to the teaching of Christ like warring against other cultures, killing everyone and taking their land.

You won't find Jesus Christ instructing His disciples to engage in such barbaric conduct. Reminds me more of extremist Islam than Christianity.

comradesoul,
The Hebrew Scriptures are a beginning of God's dealings with man. They are history. The Hebrew Scriptures give the key to the understanding of the Greek Scriptures.
Jesus said that God's word truth, the word at that time was the Hebrew Scriptures, John 17:17.
Paul said that ALL Scripture is inspired by God, and beneficial for teaching, and for setting things straight, 2Tim 3:16,17, not just Greek Scripture.

URAVIP2ME · Feb 16, 2010

Ba'al said:
No. We don't have the original manuscripts of the bible. The bible we have today is a compilation of copies of copies which from judging how different they are from each other, is certain they aren't the original "word". That is not God preserving his word.
No. God's proclaimers have always been persecuted.

Absolutely. Jesus forewarned persecution with such verses as Matt 10:22; 24:9. And through great persecution or tribulation the Bible itself, although written on fragile paper, has survived, and so has the main focus of Jesus work that the Good News of God's kingdom would be spread around the globe as it is today. Without divine protection from God's spirit the fragile Bible and the ones doing the preaching/teaching work would have ended before now.

Isn't there a Big difference between recognizing minor mistakes that crept into copies of the Bible text and saying that Bible text are different from each other? Dismissing those minor mistakes does not mean the whole Bible is a human fabrication or that God is not preserving what he wants preserved.

Syrian writer Tatian who lived around 170 AD/CE completed his work 'Diatessaron' which was referring to the four Gospels as being already well known and accepted.

Sir Frederic Kenyon believed that Tatian's Diatessaron proved the four gospels undisputed over other narratives of Jesus life.

Apostle John finishes his writings around the year 98 and the oldest papyrus the Rylands 457 p 52 which has fragments from John's writings dates to the year 125 AD/CE

Bodner 14,15 p 75 that contains most of Luke and John dates to 175-225 AD/CE That text is very close to the Vatican 1209.

Irenaeus believed about the four gospels.

When Jesus referred to or quoted from those already existing Hebrew Scriptures, where are any verses or passages different from what Jesus wanted to teach?

Bick · Feb 19, 2010

comradesoul said:
Why do Christians consider the Old Testament as scripture relating to them? I don't get it . There is so much in there that is clearly not relevant to the teaching of Christ like warring against other cultures, killing everyone and taking their land.

You won't find Jesus Christ instructing His disciples to engage in such barbaric conduct. Reminds me more of extremist Islam than Christianity.

MY COMMENTS: I can only speak for myself. I agree that all that was done by Israel in the conquering of the land is history--not to be applied today.

We read in 2 Tim. 3:16 "All scripture inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness." NRSV.

There are many principles throughout the Bible, principles which are true thoughout the ages, such as faith in God and in his declarations, hope, love, honesty, right living, etc. These can be applied to the church/body of Christ today, but not the old covenant with its animal sacrifices, rituals, feast days, priestly ceremonies, or commandments.

Howerver, I believe the Scriptures are clear that Jesus first came into the world to be a servant to His people, Israel. That his message was "repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand," that is, the Messianic Kingdom, the hope of Israel, the kingdom under the heavens on earth.
Similarly, many principles set forth in the Gospels are applicable to the church.body, but Jesus' commands are not necessarily applicable today.

URAVIP2ME · Feb 19, 2010

Isn't Jesus command at Matthew 24:14 applicable today because how else could the good news of God's kingdom in the hands of Jesus Christ be proclaimed world wide, globally, if not applicable today?

jtartar · Mar 29, 2010

URAVIP2ME said:
Isn't Jesus command at Matthew 24:14 applicable today because how else could the good news of God's kingdom in the hands of Jesus Christ be proclaimed world wide, globally, if not applicable today?

URAVIP2ME,
The Good News of the Kingdom is actually more relavent today than at any time in past history. The Reason???
News means something new to be told. The New thing now to be told is: Jesus has been installed as KIng of God's Kingdom. Jesus became the King in 1914CE. Proof positive is found in the Holy Scriptures. Let's reason on a few scriptures. I'm sure you have read about the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse. The Apocalypse is another name of Revelation, which means a revealing or uncovering.
Consider Rev 6:1-8. At verse 2 we see Jesus riding a white horse, with a bow in his hand. Jesus receives a Crown, and is told to go forth conquering and to complete his conquest. This time period was prophesied in Daniel. The time was to amount to 2,520 years, from the time that Nebuchadrezzar and his Babylonians destroyed Jerusalem and the beautiful temple that Solomon built. Before this time there was a Theocratic Government on earth, ruling the Isrealites. Jerusalem was destroyed in 607BC. From that time to 1914, a period of 2,520 years the nation of Isrealites would be brought low, and the nations would be in the ascendency, Eze 21:25-27. This ssme time period is spoken of at Luke 21:24. This is also the time period spoken about by Daniel in his great prophecy about the Huge tree that was cut down and banded. That tree stood for God's Kingdom, and it was to be banded for 2,520 years, until Jesus would be installed on the Kingdom in 1914.
Notice again what was to happen immediately after Jesus became KIng. The RED Horse. This horse means WAR. A great sword was given him and authority to take peace away from earth. This is exactly what we had in 1914, The First World War. Then we have the black horse which means famine. Then the Pale horse with death following close behind. At Rev 12: the Bible tells about this same period and some other problems. Rev 12:4,5, tells about the birth of the Kingdom. Verses 7-9 tell about war in heaven when Satan and his demons are thrown down to earth. Notice verses 10-12, where we are told that heaven should be glad, but WOE for the earth because Satan has come down having great anger, because he has a short period of time left. Isn't this what we would expect with Satan and his demons confined to earth??? War is exactly what we had then and more people have been killed in wars in the 20th century than in all the centuries since Jesus walked the earth. We have had more people killed by famine, and pestilence than ever before, more earthquakes than ever. All these things point to the GENERATION that Jesus told about at Matt 24:34.
The great prophecy mentioned at Matt 24:14 is being carried on at the same time as Jesus is continuing on his mission to complete his conquest, Rev 6:2. The same generation that sees thes things is the generation who would see the Kingdom installed, Luke 21:31,32. We are also the generation who will experience the Great Tribulation, then Armageddon, all very near now.

URAVIP2ME · Mar 29, 2010

jtartar said:
URAVIP2ME,
The Good News of the Kingdom is actually more relevant today than at any time in past history. The Reason???
The great prophecy mentioned at Matt 24:14 is being carried on at the same time as Jesus is continuing on his mission to complete his conquest, Rev 6:2. The same generation that sees these things is the generation who would see the Kingdom installed, Luke 21:31,32. We are also the generation who will experience the Great Tribulation, then Armageddon, all very near now.

Thank You and if I may add a little P.S.

Not only is the GT and Armageddon near [Psalm 92:7] but so is the wonderful reward for the favored ones of Matthew 25:32. Those alive and living on earth at that time who are placed at Jesus right hand of favor, so to speak, can remain alive or keep on living right into the start of Jesus peaceful 1000-year rule over earth when Jesus, as crowned king of God's kingdom or royal government, ushers in global Peace on Earth toward men of goodwill.
Micah 4;3,4

Question for Christians

Member

Active Member

Old Geezer

Member

Member

Active Member

Veteran Member

Member

Member

Sporadic Driveby Member

Veteran Member

Active Member

Veteran Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Veteran Member

Member

Veteran Member

Well-Known Member

Veteran Member