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Was Peter the First Pope?

Was Peter the First Pope?

  • Yes

    Votes: 6 28.6%
  • No

    Votes: 7 33.3%
  • I'm not sure

    Votes: 4 19.0%
  • Who cares?!

    Votes: 4 19.0%
  • Other (I'll post my response)

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    21
  • Poll closed .

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Metaphors? Why cause it doesn't mesh with your interpretation? Sigh...I almost want to say how come you guys can't use your God given brain to see how silly that is but I will be more charitable and explain further.

Apologists Gary Hoge further explains:

Paul also referred to Abraham as the “father of all who believe” (Romans 4:11), specifically including the Gentiles, who are not biologically descended from Abraham. So Abraham is the spirtual father of believing Gentiles, according to Paul.

Looking further in the New Testament, we find that the first Christian martyr, Stephen, addressed the Jewish high priest and the Sanhedrin as “brothers and fathers” (Acts 7:2). Also, the apostle John, the disciple whom Jesus loved, routinely referred to his followers as “my little children” (e.g., 1 John 2:1, 2:12, 2:28, 3:7, 3:18, etc.) Lastly, Jesus himself referred to Abraham in a parable twice as “Father Abraham” (Luke 16:24, 16:30). So it would seem that either Paul, Stephen, John, and even Jesus Himself, misunderstood Jesus’s command, or some modern Protestants have. I’d put my money on the latter.

But if Jesus didn’t mean to forbid the use of the word “father” in a biological context, or in a spiritual context, what did He mean? What’s left? Well, the key to understanding this verse is to understand that the ancient, Eastern people to whom Jesus spoke these words often used hyperbolic, exaggerated statements that are not meant to be taken literally. According to Protestant author John W. Haley,




The people of the East are fervid and impassioned in their modes of thought and expression. They think and speak in poetry. Bold metaphors and startling hyperboles abound in their writings and conversation. . . . He who does not remember the wide difference between the Oriental and Occidental mind, must necessarily fall into error.1


Examples of this vivid hyperbole abound in the New Testament (see, e.g., Matt. 5:29-30, Matt. 17:20, Luke 14:26, etc.) We Americans tend to forget this. We approach the New Testament as if it were originally written in English and its authors were contemporary Americans. We expect them to write as we would write, and thus we tend to read the Bible as if it were a contract drawn up by lawyers. Too often we mistake the Eastern poet for a Western essayist, and when we run across examples of the vivid exaggeration that was typical of ancient semitic writing, we don’t know what to make of it. And so we fret about whether we are allowed to call someone “father” (a practice to which the apostles had no objection), when in reality Jesus was simply expressing, in typically flambouyant Eastern style, the idea that no man is to take the place of God in our lives. The Protestant International Standard Bible Encyclopedia acknowledges that this is the true meaning of the text:




Christ’s condemnation is clearly of the praise-seeking or obsequious spirit, rather than of a particular custom.2


This verse has nothing whatsoever to do with the proper use of the word “father,” it has to do with the proper attitude of Christians toward their brothers, and toward God. Therefore, it is perfectly appropriate for Catholics, and others, to give the title “father” to their ministers. In doing so they are not being disobedient to Jesus, rather they are following the apostolic example established by Paul and John.
~Victor

PS-In that same verse where it supposedly condemns calling someone father in the sense you guys understand it also condemns calling someone teacher. I suppose you guys have never called someone teacher either, eh? I wonder why we don't hear the Protestant camps objecting to this much? Could it be cause they seem to have an agenda to go after the Catholic Church? :sarcastic
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
I have no such agenda. Of course I don't refer to anyone as "Father" or as a spiritual "Teacher" either. But then, I am not a protestant either. :D
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
NetDoc said:
I have no such agenda. Of course I don't refer to anyone as "Father" or as a spiritual "Teacher" either. But then, I am not a protestant either. :D
Good to hear. Although it is alive out there. ;)

~Victor
 

dan

Well-Known Member
Bueno, irrespective of that, there's no basis for the Catholic assertion that Peter was the Pope, or that anyone else in the Catholic line of authority was in any way authorized to lead the church.
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
dan said:
there's no basis for the Catholic assertion that Peter was the Pope, or that anyone else in the Catholic line of authority was in any way authorized to lead the church.
That's kinda silly.... we have scripture and history.... there is no "proof" that our interpretation is the "correct" one, but there is surely a basis for it. :confused:
 

dan

Well-Known Member
Scripture? Like what?

History is a sham. You have tradition up until everyone else who wrote history books was killed.
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
dan said:
Scripture? Like what?

History is a sham. You have tradition up until everyone else who wrote history books was killed.
Who could argue with such a well thought out and balanced reply? I concede.


:rolleyes:
 

Uncertaindrummer

Active Member
dan said:
Bueno, irrespective of that, there's no basis for the Catholic assertion that Peter was the Pope, or that anyone else in the Catholic line of authority was in any way authorized to lead the church.
Yeah, its not like the Bible says the Church was founded on Peter, it isn't like the early Father's were unanimous in their support of the primacy of Rome, etc. etc.

You want direct quotations? There are plenty.
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
Dan,

short bombastic comments do little to engender a debate or a discussion. In fact, it can be misconstrued as trolling. If you want "retorts" you have to give more than you have been. IE, tell us why you think Scott is wrong about the Papacy.

UD,

there is only one passage of scripture that comes CLOSE to supporting Peter as the "Rock" of the church. No where is the office of the papacy described or even hinted at. The early church was not headed by only one man... it was governed by concensus as the Spirit moved them.
 

dan

Well-Known Member
I asked a question. I asked which scriptures were supportive of Peter as the Pope. My other statement was just how I felt about the situation. I didn't expect a reply about history, but I wanted to hear some scriptures.
 

Uncertaindrummer

Active Member
NetDoc said:
Dan,

short bombastic comments do little to engender a debate or a discussion. In fact, it can be misconstrued as trolling. If you want "retorts" you have to give more than you have been. IE, tell us why you think Scott is wrong about the Papacy.

UD,

there is only one passage of scripture that comes CLOSE to supporting Peter as the "Rock" of the church. No where is the office of the papacy described or even hinted at. The early church was not headed by only one man... it was governed by concensus as the Spirit moved them.
If it was governed by consensus wouldn't we see that in history? And yet we don't.
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
UD said:
If it was governed by consensus wouldn't we see that in history? And yet we don't.
Sure we do... what were the councils all about?

How about Paul before the Jerusalem church?

In fact the entire Book of Acts sees this as the structure of the church.
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
NetDoc said:
If you want "retorts" you have to give more than you have been. IE, tell us why you think Scott is wrong about the Papacy.
Perfect.:)
there is only one passage of scripture that comes CLOSE to supporting Peter as the "Rock" of the church.
In your opinon.... my point has been that I'm not looking for a verse that says "Peter is the Pope... here's the job description..... now go get a cool house in Rome"... what I'm trying to do is explain the reasons why we believe in the Primacy of Peter, not convince you or anyone that we have a "proof text" that shows without question that we are "right". We've got to look at a few things:

Was there ever such a thing as primacy at all?
When you take a look at Scripture, it's impossible to deny the evidence of the preeminence of Peter among the Apostles... the fact that he is listed first... the sheer frequency of references to Peter.... etc etc...
But what does the preeminence of Peter in the NT actually mean... if anything?
Well, we say that it does.... some (you and Dan for instance) say it does not....

.... but statements like:
dan said:
irrespective of that, there's no basis for the Catholic assertion that Peter was the Pope, or that anyone else in the Catholic line of authority was in any way authorized to lead the church.
or
NetDoc said:
No where is the office of the papacy described or even hinted at.
...are quite incorrect and (obviously) biased..... what we all have done is made a decision based upon evidence in the NT and history.... just because you come to make a DIFFERENT conclusion by no means implies that either of you are any more correct that we are....

Peace in Christ,
Scott
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
Dear Scott,

I have no issues with y'all having a Pope... the origins of his office are not Scriptural, but traditional. You have pointed out many a time that you need more than scriptures to figure Catholicism out.

I look at Paul rebuking Peter to his face and see that there was no air of "infallability" which is a critical mark of the Pope.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
ND,
Peter was rebuked for hypocritical practices (Galatians 2:11-14). This has no bearing on his gift of infallibility. How much do you understand about how infallibility works ND? Besides, catholics have a long history of laymen rebuking decadent popes, while remaining faithful to the Church. I'm sure you have heard that the Pope is not sinless.

~Victor
 

dan

Well-Known Member
Uncertaindrummer said:
"You are Peter and upon this Rock I wil build My Church"

There is one, just in the ten seconds I have.
If you understand Greek at all you'll see why that cannot mean what you think it means.
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
NetDoc said:
I have no issues with y'all having a Pope... the origins of his office are not Scriptural, but traditional.
Again... this is but your personal opinon.... I believe (and the Church as well, obviously) that the Petrine ministry has its origin in the NT.

... just because you have come to a different conclusion does not mean that you are any more correct than I.
I look at Paul rebuking Peter to his face and see that there was no air of "infallability" which is a critical mark of the Pope.
Again... I see this as a prime example of what the Petrine ministry is all about.... just because you have come to a different conclusion does not mean that you are any more correct than I.

I can't make it any more clear than that.... :confused:
 
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