Question for Christians

Danmac · Feb 6, 2010

Ba'al said:
What is the source that says the laws do not apply to the church?

Acts 15:1-29

What does "but much of the old testament is relevant to the body of Christ" even mean? Relevant to Christians? What parts of the OT are relevant and what parts aren't?

Everything except for the law of Moses which Acts 15:1-29 relieved it from.

comradesoul · Feb 6, 2010

aborohoma said:
Who wrote the old testament? and who wrote the new one?
How did they come to us?
What does it mean when 2nd mouse says"the old covenant is now obsolete and God will now withhold His wrath against those who resist until the end of days. However without understanding the history you cannot rightly understand the new covenant. Sadly most of the Christian church today only has a superficial understanding of the gospel mixed with a lot of erroneous teachings"? can we say that a holy book or part of it is now obselete? Is it not eternal and universal? And if the Christian church today has a superficial understanding of the gospel which is its main interest , what about other ordinary people? Please reply.

Personally I cannot say who wrote what in the bible, old or new testament.
I agree the teaching of Christ are poorly understood. The general message I get from Christians is just believe Jesus died on the cross for my sins and I will be saved. However that is not the message I hear from Jesus. He tells his followers to pick up their own personal crosses and follow Him. That being the standard there are very very few Christians in the world. I know I don't come close to measuring up.

Obsolete teachings in the Bible? Well what do the laws of the Jews concerning animal sacrifice have to do with me or anyone else in the world today? Or how does the story of Noah's ark help me advance in our journey to knowing and loving God. Sampson maybe? Nah, no inspiration there for me. Most of it is not in the least bit relevant to me. Eternal words of God? Puhleeze.

Now the teachings of Jesus Christ, well that is a different matter altogether.
Christians waste so much time and effort trying to make people take the Bible as a whole as the word of God necessary to come to God when it just isn't so.

comradesoul · Feb 6, 2010

Domenico said:
I would be happy if I citassi the biblical passages on where you think that the Old Testament teaches that

Leviticus 20,1-27 1The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Say to the Israelites: Anyone between the Israelites or of the strangers who reside in Israel will give some of his children to Molech must be put to death the people of the country indeed stone. 3Anch'io will set my face against that man and cut him off from his people because he gave one of his children to Molech with intent to defile my sanctuary and profaning my holy name. 4SE the people of the country closes eyes when that man gives one of his children to Moloch, and not put him to death, 5io will set my face against that man and against his family and eliminate from his people with him who strove to idolatry as he descends to worship Moloch

6SE a man turns to necromancers and soothsayers to give himself to the superstitions behind them, I will set my face against that person and will eliminate in his people.

7Santificatevi therefore and be holy, for I am the Lord your God 8Osservate my judgments and do them. I am the Lord that he wants to make saints.

9Chiunque cursed his father or his mother shall surely be put to death, he cursed his father or his mother, his blood shall be upon him.

10Se one commits adultery with the wife of his neighbor, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

11Se has a relationship with his stepmother, he uncovers the nakedness of his father, both of them shall be put to death: their blood shall be upon them.

12Se has a relationship with her daughter, both of them shall be put to death have committed an abomination; their blood shall be upon them.

13Se has a relationship with a man as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination, and must be put to death: their blood shall be upon them.

14Se one takes into wife, daughter and mother, is a crime, you will burn with fire him and them, because there is among you such a crime.

15L'uomo that brutalizes with a beast shall surely be put to death, you must kill the beast.

16Se a woman approaches an animal to get dirty with it, killing the woman and the beast, both should be put to death: their blood shall be upon them.

17Se one takes his sister, her father's daughter or daughter his mother, and sees her nakedness and she sees his nakedness, it is a disgrace, and they shall be removed in the presence of children of their people: he has discovered the nakedness of his sister, will bring the penalty his iniquity.

18Se one has a relationship with a woman during her rules and uncovers her nakedness, that man has discovered the source of her and she discovered the source of their blood, so both will be removed from their people.

19Non have any sex the sister of your mother or sister of your father, who reveals his own flesh, both will bear their iniquities.

20SE has a relationship with the wife of his uncle, discovers his uncle's nakedness; all Both will carry the penalty of their sin, they shall die childless.

21SE one takes his brother's wife, is an impurity, he discovered his brother's nakedness, they shall be childless.

22Osserverete So all my statutes and all my requirements and do them, because the country where I am bringing you to live there discards.

23Non follow the customs of the nations that I am about to drive out before you, they have done all those things, therefore I abhor

24th I told you: You have their own country, I will give it owned, it is a land flowing with milk and honey. I am the Lord your God will have separated from other nations.

25Farete therefore distinguish between clean beasts and unclean, between unclean birds and clean and you will not disgusting, eating animals, birds or creatures that crawl on earth and that I have done as distinguished unclean.

26Sarete holy to me, for I the Lord am holy and have separated you from other people, because you're mine.

27Se man or woman among you, exercising necromancy or divination, will be put to death will be stoned and their blood shall be upon them. "

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letter from the apostle Paul Jewish 10,24-31 24Cerchiamo also stimulate one another in charity and good works, 25senza deserting our meetings, as some have the habit of doing, but instead exhorting one another, especially as you can see how the day is approaching.

26Infatti if we sin willfully after having received the knowledge of truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, the 27th only a fearful expectation of proceedings and the heat of a fire that will devour the rebels. 28Quando someone has violated the law of Moses is put to death without mercy on the word of two or three witnesses. 29Di then how much greater punishment do you think will be judged worthy who has trampled the Son of God and considered profane the blood of the covenant by which he was a holy day and have despised the Spirit of grace? 30Conosciamo he that says: Vengeance is mine! I will repay! And again: The Lord will judge his people. 31E terrible fall into the hands of the living God!

Paul's letter ebrei12 .18 to 29 18Voi Indeed there have come to a tangible place and a blazing fire, nor darkness, darkness and storm, 19né a trumpet blast and the sound of words, while those who heard begged that God does not addressing more at the word; 20Non could tolerate the injunction: If even a beast touches the mountain or stoned. 21A shows, in fact, was so terrifying that Moses said: I fear and tremble. 22Voi you have come to Mount Zion and the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem and myriads of angels, festal gathering 23rd Assembly of the firstborn enrolled in heaven, to God the Judge of all the spirits of just men made perfection, 24al Mediator of New Covenant and the blood that speaks more eloquently than that of Abel.

25Guardatevi therefore not refuse him who speaks, for if they did not find those escape who refused him who promulgates decrees on earth, much less I find us to turn our backs on Him who speaks from heaven. 26THE fact one day his voice shook the earth, but now has made this promise: Once more I shake not only the earth but also heaven. 27La word once again indicates that the things that can be shaken are intended to pass, as created things, because those who remain steadfast. 28Perciò, since we inherited an unshakable kingdom, let us keep this grace and through him they worship pleasing to God, with reverence and fear; 29perché our God is a consuming fire.

Sorry Domenico I have,nt the slightest idea what all this copy and paste has to do with my quote which you sighted. Perhaps if you used your own words to express yourself I would be able to understand what you meant.

Domenico · Feb 10, 2010

comradesoul said:
Sorry Domenico I have,nt the slightest idea what all this copy and paste has to do with my quote which you sighted. Perhaps if you used your own words to express yourself I would be able to understand what you meant.

Sorry for my long post, I wanted to let you know the Colegio between the new and the old testament, but let me know when in the Bible there is all the cruelty that you say

comradesoul · Feb 10, 2010

Domenico said:
Sorry for my long post, I wanted to let you know the Colegio between the new and the old testament, but let me know when in the Bible there is all the cruelty that you say

Animal sacrifice and the slaughter of surrounding civilizations. The stoning of women and other violators of Jewish law is a good example. We all know the story of the adulterous woman brought before Jesus. The law said she should be stoned. Jesus then taught us a higher path.

What the Jewish religious codes were is not my concern. Time is short in this life and I think we waste too much of it by being concern with old traditions whose relevance has come and gone.

Many people have come to think that they have to accept the stories in the Old Testament as literal truth to be a good Christian. An intelligent person of the world cannot be made to believe the Earth is only 10,000 years old based on some peoples speculation as to what is said in the Old Testament.

So my question is why in the world are Christians even approaching such subjects that have no relevance to someone finding God or not?

Do you see what I am trying to get at Domenico?

comradesoul · Feb 11, 2010

Just to be very clear on my purpose for this thread I am not on a mission to attack the Old Testament. There is much there that I can see that should be edifying for anyone's attempt to become God conscious.

My problem is with Christians feeling the need to prove it to be the "100% perfect error free word of God" which it is certain not and confusing people into thinking they have to accept it along with accepting Christ thus obscuring the teaching of Lord Jesus Himself.

Jesus' teachings though not great in quantity are of such a quality as to be able to transform the heart of anyone applying them and I believe they should be presented as standing far above all the ritualistic mumbo-jumbo of the world's religions.

Hare Krishna

Danmac · Feb 11, 2010

comradesoul said:
Just to be very clear on my purpose for this thread I am not on a mission to attack the Old Testament. There is much there that I can see that should be edifying for anyone's attempt to become God conscious.

My problem is with Christians feeling the need to prove it to be the "100% perfect error free word of God" which it is certain not and confusing people into thinking they have to accept it along with accepting Christ thus obscuring the teaching of Lord Jesus Himself.

Jesus' teachings though not great in quantity are of such a quality as to be able to transform the heart of anyone applying them and I believe they should be presented as standing far above all the ritualistic mumbo-jumbo of the world's religions.

Hare Krishna

Are you saying that the Bible can't be trusted?

comradesoul · Feb 11, 2010

I am not going to keep repeating myself brother. You list yourself as a follower of Christ so the ? is, do you think there is anything the Old Testament adds to the teachings of Christ. I say Jesus' teachings are complete in themselves and need no propping up by anything found in the Old Testament.

Ba'al · Feb 12, 2010

Danmac said:
Are you saying that the Bible can't be trusted?

Trusted in what? Historical information? No. To be the word of God? Not unless you think God can't do math or likes to contradict himself. To be racist? Possibly. To invoke genocide? Yes.

sandandfoam · Feb 12, 2010

comradesoul said:
I say Jesus' teachings are complete in themselves and need no propping up by anything found in the Old Testament.

I don't think it's about propping up. Us, you, me and everyone are meaning makers for ourselves. For me, there is beauty in the Old Testament. For example look at The Song of Songs as a Mystical Drama as suggested by Origen, Genesis read as a psychological awakening strikes a chord with me.
The Old Testament, New Testament, Qur'an, Tibetan Book of the Dead etc. etc. suggest paths of self discovery to me if I take them as works with multiple layers of meaning. I do not believe many these days take them to be literal transcricption.
I should add that my knowledge of all the above is very limited but I endeavour to learn.

comradesoul · Feb 12, 2010

I do not believe many these days take them to be literal transcricption.

Speculation is not the way to understand genuine scripture or the Word of God.

You would be surprised how many take such things literally.

If you look at Christ's teachings he doesn't speculate or bother Himself with old stories except to maybe use them to make a spiritual point. Remember He was talking to a people who were steeped in those books.
Christ taught conduct arising from a change in heart. Forgivness not revenge. Metaphysics was not stressed when speaking to the masses. The Gospels are all one really needs to come to God.

Even the New Testament which is filled with wisdom on following Christ falls short of being the exact word of God.

Ba'al · Feb 12, 2010

comradesoul said:
The Gospels are all one really needs to come to God.

One can use the gospels, yes. One can also use any other scripture or no scripture at all. Many people are very spiritual and close to God yet are not affiliated with any religion. Religious scripture is there to help us but is not mandatory, IMO.

Danmac · Feb 12, 2010

comradesoul said:
I am not going to keep repeating myself brother. You list yourself as a follower of Christ so the ? is, do you think there is anything the Old Testament adds to the teachings of Christ. I say Jesus' teachings are complete in themselves and need no propping up by anything found in the Old Testament.

The Old Testament is quoted a number of times in the new testament so I think the old testament is of use to the church. I agree that the new testament is more applicable as far as applying it to our everyday lives, but I think the old testament is something we can use to gain insight and hope in our own trials of life.

Ro 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

comradesoul · Feb 13, 2010

Ba'al said:
One can use the gospels, yes. One can also use any other scripture or no scripture at all. Many people are very spiritual and close to God yet are not affiliated with any religion. Religious scripture is there to help us but is not mandatory, IMO.

Well I agree. No religious affiliation necessary. Jesus never called Himself a Christian. However we must practice the teaching.

Yes one can be illiterate and the Lord can teach the essence of the scriptures to that person from within. Sincerity is the only requirement.

jaareshiah · Feb 13, 2010

Ba'al said:
One can use the gospels, yes. One can also use any other scripture or no scripture at all. Many people are very spiritual and close to God yet are not affiliated with any religion. Religious scripture is there to help us but is not mandatory, IMO.

More than the Gospels are needed to gain God's favor and the everlasting life that he promises to those who "exercising faith in" Jesus as the "only-begotten Son of God."(John 3:16) In order to open a combination lock, all the numbers must be used and in their respective order. Likewise of knowing God and gaining the promised life eternal, whether on earth in a paradise or in heaven as "kings and priests", all the Bible is essential.

Jesus said it succinctly to Satan, following Satan's statement of Jesus turning ' stones into loaves of bread' after Jesus hadn't eaten for forty days: "It is written, ‘Man must live, not on bread alone, but on every utterance coming forth through Jehovah’s mouth.’”(Matt 4:4)

Jesus quoted from Deuteronomy 8:3, saying that every word that God has spoken is necessary to know and please him. Within the same setting, Jesus further quoted from the Hebrew Scriptures, commonly called the "Old Testament".(Matt 4:7, 10) Just as a delicious meal requires all the ingredients to measure up to it's original tastyness, with even the herbs and spices as important, so in the same way is it vital that we realize that all of the 66 books of the Bible are crucial. None can be relegated to the "cellar".

For example, when the Sadducces asked Jesus concerning the resurrection at Luke 20:27-33, how did Jesus reply ? By quoting from Exodus 3:6 and 6:3.(Luke 20:34-38) And when the Pharisees found fault with him and his disciples for plucking heads of grain to eat on the sabbath, Jesus quoted from 1 Samuel 21:1-6 and alluded to Numbers 28:9. Concerning doing the "works of God" to the Jews, Jesus spoke of the manna that God gave to nation of Israel.(John 6:28-32; Ex 16:31-35) In speaking of the resurrection at John 6:44, Jesus quoted from Isaiah 54:13 at John 6:45.

After his resurrection, in speaking with Cleopas and his associate, Jesus told them that it is vitally important "to believe on all the things the prophets spoke!"(Luke 24:25) He further said the them: "Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into his glory?”(Luke 24:26) Then Jesus, "commencing at Moses and all the Prophets he interpreted to them things pertaining to himself in all the Scriptures."(Luke 24:27)

Without deeply recognizing that all the Bible is from God, no one can "find the very knowledge of God"(Prov 2:5), and grasp his eternal purpose of how Jesus served as the hinge point for the earth be restored to a paradise.(Eph 1:9-11; Rev 21:3-5; Gen 1-3)

Ba'al · Feb 13, 2010

jaareshiah said:
More than the Gospels are needed to gain God's favor and the everlasting life that he promises to those who "exercising faith in" Jesus as the "only-begotten Son of God.

Some people have died never having seen a bible in their life. These people will be punished? Rubbish.

comradesoul · Feb 14, 2010

Without deeply recognizing that all the Bible is from God, no one can "find the very knowledge of God"(Prov 2:5)

Odd. Since there was no such thing as the Bible when Proverbs was written.

Argamemnon · Feb 14, 2010

comradesoul said:
Sure sounds like what is coming from the mouths of the Islamofacists today.

You seem to be under the influence of Corporate media like most people (particularly in the West). The real problem is Judeo-Christo fascism. After all, they attack and massacre Muslims, certainly not the other way around. Muslims only respond, which then of course is called "terrorism" by those same Judeo-Christian fascists.

The Judeo-fascists and Christo-fascists are not only guilty of invading and attacking Muslim (and other) lands, but they are also guilty of:

- toppling other nations' regimes when they refuse to submit to total western domination (how dare they want to remain independent and serve their own people, instead of becoming a slave of the Judeo-Christian fascists?)

-installing puppet regimes serving their own interests (for example toppling Iran's democratically elected government in 1953)

- imposing harsh sanctions (which kill hundreds of thousands of people - mainly children, as happened in Iraq for example)

- threatening with violence (Iran)

- conducting covert CIA operations, assasinations, and state terror and other hostile and criminal actions against many other nations around the world.

- creating a "global" system that only serves their own interests at the detriment of other nations (NATO, United Nations Security Council, IMF, World Bank etc.)

- labling all those nations that refuse to be dominated by them as "rogue states", while they themselves are the true rogue states consistently violating all international agreements. This is all well-documented.

gzusfrk · Feb 14, 2010

I do not believe the OT is necessary to be saved.

comradesoul · Feb 14, 2010

Argamemnon said:
You seem to be under the influence of Corporate media like most people (particularly in the West). The real problem is Judeo-Christo fascism. After all, they attack and massacre Muslims, certainly not the other way around. Muslims only respond, which then of course is called "terrorism" by those same Judeo-Christian fascists.

The Judeo-fascists and Christo-fascists are not only guilty of invading and attacking Muslim (and other) lands, but they are also guilty of:

- toppling other nations' regimes when they refuse to submit to total western domination (how dare they want to remain independent and serve their own people, instead of becoming a slave of the Judeo-Christian fascists?)

-installing puppet regimes serving their own interests (for example toppling Iran's democratically elected government in 1953)

- imposing harsh sanctions (which kill hundreds of thousands of people - mainly children, as happened in Iraq for example)

- threatening with violence (Iran)

- conducting covert CIA operations, assasinations, and state terror and other hostile and criminal actions against many other nations around the world.

- creating a "global" system that only serves their own interests at the detriment of other nations (NATO, United Nations Security Council, IMF, World Bank etc.)

- labling all those nations that refuse to be dominated by them as "rogue states", while they themselves are the true rogue states consistently violating all international agreements. This is all well-documented.

Yeah.... right.

You make the mistake of confusing Christianity with Capitalism. Anyway this is not the subject of this thread nor is this a debate area.

Do you have anything on topic to add?

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