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What Real Evidence Exists for The Resurrection?

Trusue

New Member
The Scriptures give believers in God, the evidence they need to prove anything the Bible states.
That's where your faith comes in, you have to believe God's word as it is, truly inspired from God to men.
It is religion that allows different understandings or teachings from independant interpretation, that confuses people.

***​
w95 6/1 p. 10 par. 14 Although Grieving, We Are Not Without Hope ***

“Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear [the Son of God’s] voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.”—John 5:28, 29.​
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
You just keep confirming my suspicion that you really don't understand the texts your dealing with and worse, you don't even really care.

You see? That's the trouble, once again, with Judaic and Christian scripture: they are so befuddled in mumbo jumbo that the average Joe needs a witch doctor to decipher them. They are either in some secret code, or mostly, are symbolic of this or that meaning. Above all, they are human interpretations of reality based upon something vaguely called the "word of God", whatever that means.

Excuse me if I don't hold these "texts" in the same reverence that you do. I am not impressed, and so, it may seem that I do not care. I care that people are not mis-led by their erroneous message, that's all, and that is why I bring to question the validity of the Resurrection, if not all of biblical doctrine. As far as I am concerned, Judaism and Christianity are reflections of man's state of mind, not God's.

As for the New Testament, what we have here is a concoction of some of the words of the very real Yeshua, overlaid with many revisions, and new doctrines as laid down on top of the originals by St. Paul and others, one of which is the central theme of the resurrecton of the body.

When a non-Christian sees all of this and points it out, the Christian responds by saying the he really does not understand and blah, blah, blah. I have explained my position on the matter. You, on the other hand, choose to simply condemn what I say without further ado, and that one must have faith in the doctrine without questioning and so on. Well, I do not have any faith in these doctrines for very good reasons which have to do with something called paradigm. Mostly, they are a product of a politically tumultuous time in man's history, which is reflected in the apocalyptic doctrines and prophecies which emerged. The modern Christian view is an artifact of such times, and is attempting to superimpose its dated teachings on the modern world. It's the same old, same old: man has a sinful nature which must be controlled via of morality. It has never worked, and also cannot work in the future you mention, that of so called cosmic renewal, because it is not new at all, but old hat.

Essentially, we have two views: that of man's relation to an external controlling deity whose Moral Law must be obeyed or suffer the consequences. Law and Obedience are the key issues here. The other view has to do with union with the essence of the divine nature, which is to be found within, (as Yeshua told us), this the view of the mystic, which is what Yeshua was. Why else do you think he was at such odds with the established orthodoxy of his time? He saw that they were corrupt because he was at one with the living spirit. The old Judaic laws were dead. That is what happens when you try to force reality to fit your concept of it. It eventually breaks.
 
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godnotgod

Thou art That
The Scriptures give believers in God, the evidence they need to prove anything the Bible states.

If that were true, the Christians on this forum would already have proved their claim of the Resurrection as historical fact. They have failed to do so.


That's where your faith comes in, you have to believe God's word as it is, truly inspired from God to men.
Except for the fact that it is not God inspired, but man made.


It is religion that allows different understandings or teachings from independant interpretation, that confuses people.
Are you kidding? The Bible is the most misunderstood text in the world, so much so, that its so called authorities, who are supposed to have a clear understanding of its message, have used it to murder, pillage, and plunder in its name, the prime example being the 400 year long Inquisition. Even Jesus tried to tell people that they were mistaken to think they could find the truth within scripture. He was trying to tell them that the true path is wordless and doctrineless.

There is no way for the Bible to insure consistency in interpretation and understanding from one person to the next, both because of different outlooks on life, and because much of the Bible is interpreted symbolically.

Mystics, (such as Yeshua), having recognized this problem, focus on their immediate experience from within. Scripture is referred to, but only as a secondary source. Their way is to go beyond the self, which is the cause of varying interpretations, and go directly to the Universal Mind, whose message is the same from one person to the next.

Why would it be any different?
 
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The Scriptures give believers in God, the evidence they need to prove anything the Bible states.
That's where your faith comes in, you have to believe God's word as it is, truly inspired from God to men.
It is religion that allows different understandings or teachings from independant interpretation, that confuses people.

***​
w95 6/1 p. 10 par. 14 Although Grieving, We Are Not Without Hope ***

“Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear [the Son of God’s] voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.”—John 5:28, 29.​

"Evidence" that's available only after you already believe isn't evidence.

TC
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
“Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear [the Son of God’s] voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.”—John 5:28, 29.​

Heh..heh..heh:D...but of course, everyone in those tombs are just playing dead, just taking a little nap, eh?

"Yoo hoo! You can come out, now! Oh, Jeremiah! Yoo Hoo! I know you're IN there! God is calling....it's time for your resurrection, now. Your favorite activity! You can stop playing dead!.....uh....Jeremiah?...Wake up!....OMG...he really IS dead!":D
 
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footprints

Well-Known Member
If that were true, the Christians on this forum would already have proved their claim of the Resurrection as historical fact. They have failed to do so.

I would say, the christians in this forum have conclusively proven the resurrection claim to be a historical fact, to other christians and those who share the same belief as they do on this matter.

I think what you mean to say is, they haven't proven it as a historical fact, to people of your faith of belief, or a similar faith of belief as you where a resurrection is concerned.

Which is a far cry from saying they have failed to do so. They have just failed to do so where you are concerned.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
I would say, the christians in this forum have conclusively proven the resurrection claim to be a historical fact, to other christians and those who share the same belief as they do on this matter.

Ha ha ha!:D That's like saying that the Mafia has proven to other Mafia members that Mafia murders are a good thing.

"We agree wit youze guys 100%, Boss!"


Now just think about what you just said: that Christians have proven the resurrection to be a historical fact to others who share the same belief. A belief is not a fact. Or were you not aware of that? All you have said, in a nutshell, is that Christians treat their belief as if it were fact, and the fact of the matter is that that is exactly what they do! Bottom line is that they have succeeded in driving a square pet into a round hole and then proceeded to congratulate themselves on this "accomplishment".

A historical fact is something universally recognized as such, by universal, generic standards, and not by those specific to any group interests. If what you say were true, The Flat Earth Society has proven that the Earth is flat.

Now, you can call it a fact, simply because you are treating belief in the doctrine of the Resurrection as such, but that does not make it a fact.

If you are further claiming that it is a historical fact, then you are bound by the standards which bona fide historians employ, and NOT by religious standards peculiar to your own brand of religion.

I think what you mean to say is, they haven't proven it as a historical fact, to people of your faith of belief, or a similar faith of belief as you where a resurrection is concerned.
No, silly! I am not looking at the question from any particular point of view or belief system. Christians are the ones who have made the claim that the Resurrection is a historical fact. All I am doing is asking them to show me the evidence that what they are claiming is, indeed, the case. They themselves admit there is no first hand evidence of such; only second and third hand allusions to it.

You seem to be operating from the premise that resurrection from the dead is a possible occurrence. It is not. The general rule since the beginning is that all living things, when dead, stay dead. So why on earth would anyone jump to the first conclusion that the discovery of an empty tomb means that its former resident resurrected himself? The first thing any sane person would think is: the body must be somewhere else. You want the empty tomb to feed your belief system, and that is not how facts are arrived at. Facts are arrived at via of dispassionately examining the evidence. The problem is that there is virtually no evidence, which, in turn, makes the claim of the Resurrection extremely suspect, especially in light of the fact that an event of such magnitude has virtually no evidence to support it. As I stated earlier, an event of this magnitude would at the very least have had a large body of oral traditions to support it, but what we have instead is a vacuum for over 35 years until St. Paul magically comes up with his "500 eyewitnesses", and then only as a footnote, with no details about them, which is highly suspect given his other statement that some of them were still alive as of his writing.

Which is a far cry from saying they have failed to do so. They have just failed to do so where you are concerned.
Nope. They have simply failed to do so.

This is not a question of proving some mundane issue; the issue at hand falls within the realm of the miraculous. Therefore, those who make the claim should have their feet held to the fire more intensely than for any other issue that demands proof.

If you would like to try, then by all means, please produce the smoking gun that clinches the question. Put up, or xxxx up!

Faith is a wonderful thing, but it proves nothing. If you have nothing more to offer than faith, then the claim that the Resurrection is a historical fact must be surrendered.

At this point, all that can really be said is that it is a belief which Christians entertain. That is a far cry from "historical fact".

Let's get real, here, and honest, OK?

Faith + Belief + Doctrine does not = Fact
 
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godnotgod

Thou art That
Yet many facts are, irrespective of what perspective is viewed upon.

That is true, but that is only coincidental. Faith does not determine that they are facts. Facts are such simply because they are true, and can be proven as true.

If you don't actually KNOW that 1 +1 =2, but simply have FAITH that it does, it can still be proven beyond your faith. In other words, proof verifies its factual nature.

Faith is still one of the perspectives you mention.

Still, we lack the evidence necessary to proceed with proving that the resurrection is a fact. Even a hypothesis requires a certain amount of evidence. The resurrection cannot even be called a hypothesis.
 
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logician

Well-Known Member
"What Real Evidence Exists for The Resurrection? "

What real evidence exists for tjhe existence of some Jesus remotely resembling the man written about in the NT?
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
You see? That's the trouble, once again, with Judaic and Christian scripture: they are so befuddled in mumbo jumbo that the average Joe needs a witch doctor to decipher them.

Naw, just a few hours' reading about little things like genre. But of course that takes a willingness to take a few hours' reading.
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
I would say, the christians in this forum have conclusively proven the resurrection claim to be a historical fact, to other christians and those who share the same belief as they do on this matter.

What malarkey. Facts are propositions that are held to be true regardless of beliefs. They are not subjective. Few modern Christians kid themselves that they can "prove" the resurrection in an evidential sense, but they believe it to be a fact on the basis of faith. There is a difference between convincing someone that something is factual and making a reasonable proof that it is factual, as countless purchasers of snake oil cures have discovered in the past.

I think what you mean to say is, they haven't proven it as a historical fact, to people of your faith of belief, or a similar faith of belief as you where a resurrection is concerned.
It is obvious that he never meant to say anything as absurd as that. He asked for proof in the OP, and nobody has come up with anything other than faith in scripture as a basis for believing in the resurrection. That kind of evidence is not sufficient to prove the claim.

Which is a far cry from saying they have failed to do so. They have just failed to do so where you are concerned.
No, they have failed to do so by any objective measure of proof.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
Naw, just a few hours' reading about little things like genre. But of course that takes a willingness to take a few hours' reading.

It is more than just about genre. Here are a few examples I decoded with my Captain Marvel Decoder I just received in my box of Trix fer Christians:

>Daniel 7,8,11 Dreadful beast Rome

>Daniel 7:5 Three ribs Babylon, Egypt, Lydia

>Daniel 7:8; 8:9 Horn with eyes or Little Horn Papal Rome is the little horn with the big mouth

>Revelation 12 Woman The church or religious power
>Revelation 12:1 Woman in white clothed with the sun The true church
>Revelation 12:2 Woman with child The church of God and Christ
>Revelation 17:4 Woman in red and purple The apostate church
>Revelation 17:3 Woman rides the beast The false church controls the state

>Revelation 12:3 Dragon with seven heads and ten horns with crowns The final powers controlling the world

>Revelation 16:13 False prophet The United States

The list goes on and on. After exposure to just a few, however, the paradigm of fear and ignorance that existed in Biblical times becomes readily apparent. It should be remembered that we are looking into the minds of a people who believed the earth to be a flat disk, with Yawheh holding back the waters from the edge. These were very superstitious people. The Jews especially, were subject to intense fears and paranoia, since, in their world, they were dominated totally by cruel Roman rule. In their minds, they were in a large pit. No mortal could save them. The only power that could save them was a supernatural power from the "other world". Hence, the myth of the messiah was born and grew until it culminated in the personage of Yeshua, and then embellished by St. Paul as Jesus. These were very insecure times, and so the 'end of the world' was always imminent.
 
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Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
It is more than just about genre. Here are a few examples I decoded with my Captain Marvel Decoder I just received in my box of Trix fer Christians:

>Daniel 7,8,11 Dreadful beast Rome

>Daniel 7:5 Three ribs Babylon, Egypt, Lydia

>Daniel 7:8; 8:9 Horn with eyes or Little Horn Papal Rome is the little horn with the big mouth

>Revelation 12 Woman The church or religious power
>Revelation 12:1 Woman in white clothed with the sun The true church
>Revelation 12:2 Woman with child The church of God and Christ
>Revelation 17:4 Woman in red and purple The apostate church
>Revelation 17:3 Woman rides the beast The false church controls the state

>Revelation 12:3 Dragon with seven heads and ten horns with crowns The final powers controlling the world

>Revelation 16:13 False prophet The United States

The list goes on and on. After exposure to just a few, however, the paradigm of fear and ignorance that existed in Biblical times becomes readily apparent. It should be remembered that we are looking into the minds of a people who believed the earth to be a flat disk, with Yawheh holding back the waters from the edge. These were very superstitious people. The Jews especially, were subject to intense fears and paranoia, since, in their world, they were dominated totally by cruel Roman rule. In their minds, they were in a large pit. No mortal could save them. The only power that could save them was a supernatural power from the "other world". Hence, the myth of the messiah was born and grew until it culminated in the personage of Yeshua, and then embellished by St. Paul as Jesus. These were very insecure times, and so the 'end of the world' was always imminent.


This demonstrates the problem of genre. Your quote of Isaiah is from a prophetic passage. Daniel is apocalyptic. The letter of St. Paul to the Ephesians is a circular letter. The Revelation of St. John is a combination of all three. Each genre (and its strange amalgam in Revelation) codify information differently, use different conventions of expression -- although sometimes they can be deceptively similar, and even relate different sorts of information. Your entire post here shows a complete lack of understanding about how these (and other, perhaps) genres work. It demonstrates what can happen when modern people apply what they know of their own genres (newspapers, academic histories, business letters) and try to apply them to ancient genres that were penned to different sorts of audiences that had different expectations of the genres and were interested in different things. Yes, it takes some training to sort some of these things out, but it's not impossible. Far from it. I'm a layperson, and I've got at least some sensitivity to it although I'm not an expert. I just have enough to get by and not make basic mistakes like your last post did.
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
This demonstrates the problem of genre. Your quote of Isaiah is from a prophetic passage. Daniel is apocalyptic. The letter of St. Paul to the Ephesians is a circular letter. The Revelation of St. John is a combination of all three. Each genre (and its strange amalgam in Revelation) codify information differently, use different conventions of expression -- although sometimes they can be deceptively similar, and even relate different sorts of information. Your entire post here shows a complete lack of understanding about how these (and other, perhaps) genres work...

What you have said here is worthless in terms of refuting godnotgod's point, because you do not show how those passages would not have had the effect he claimed--superstitious fear. Merely analyzing the texts into different genres proves nothing. Ordinary people who came across those passages long after they were penned would have little or no idea of the original context or real intentions of the authors. In the beginning decades of the Roman Empire, people were very gullible when it came to mumbo jumbo treatments. In fact, they still are.

...It demonstrates what can happen when modern people apply what they know of their own genres (newspapers, academic histories, business letters) and try to apply them to ancient genres that were penned to different sorts of audiences that had different expectations of the genres and were interested in different things. Yes, it takes some training to sort some of these things out, but it's not impossible. Far from it. I'm a layperson, and I've got at least some sensitivity to it although I'm not an expert. I just have enough to get by and not make basic mistakes like your last post did.

But you aren't a trained historian, and you don't really understand the context in which all of those genres were penned. Your own argument applies against you, even though you may be well-read for a layman. You are forced to view those genres from the perspective of a modern person, and you apply Christian biases to their interpretation. It is easy to look back on them and not really understand the allegories and references that made sense to the people during the time in which they were written. It is characteristic of people who take the Bible as somehow divinely inspired that they interpret it as having significance for their own times rather than the ancient times in which they were recorded.
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
What you have said here is worthless in terms of refuting godnotgod's point, because you do not show how those passages would not have had the effect he claimed--superstitious fear. Merely analyzing the texts into different genres proves nothing. Ordinary people who came across those passages long after they were penned would have little or no idea of the original context or real intentions of the authors. In the beginning decades of the Roman Empire, people were very gullible when it came to mumbo jumbo treatments. In fact, they still are.

That just shows how ignorant you are about literary studies. We can and do find out what the original contexts and intentions of the authors are. Not always, but we can make educated guesses. That's better than godnotgod's assertion that the passages produce superstitious fear. He sees it that way because that's what he expects of the ancient culture that produced them. He may be surprised to find out that these ancient cultures are far more sophisticated and realistic than he is or you are. But to see that would require doing some real learning. Otherwise, his (and your) "points" are all just bluster and nonsense.

But you aren't a trained historian, and you don't really understand the context in which all of those genres were penned. Your own argument applies against you, even though you may be well-read for a layman. You are forced to view those genres from the perspective of a modern person, and you apply Christian biases to their interpretation. It is easy to look back on them and not really understand the allegories and references that made sense to the people during the time in which they were written. It is characteristic of people who take the Bible as somehow divinely inspired that they interpret it as having significance for their own times rather than the ancient times in which they were recorded.

Don't be so asinine. No, I'm not a trained historian, but I can read. I can read what trained historians say. I can also read what linguists and biblical studies people say. And I have a brain and can sift wheat from chaff. That's called critical reflection, and it's entirely absent from godnotgod's procedure, as it is from yours. You both simply reject what you don't understand and accuse those who do understand of playing about with superstitious mumbo jumbo.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
That just shows how ignorant you are about literary studies. We can and do find out what the original contexts and intentions of the authors are. Not always, but we can make educated guesses.

Currently, there is a small group of scholars who claim that the Greek NT was actually derived from Aramaic Pe****ta sources, and not the other way around, as is claimed by the status quo. Much of the evidence for this comes from the fact that many of the Greek passages either make no sense or appear lifeless after translation. Aramaic was not only a very colorful language, but was filled with double meanings for the same word or phrase, which the Greek translators had no clue of. So they unwittingly translated literally, passing on many incorrect meanings. This is only part of the problem in interpreting the ancient texts.

That's better than godnotgod's assertion that the passages produce superstitious fear.

Here we are speaking English to one another, and already we have a misinterpretation: I never said that the passages produce superstitious fear. I said that superstition and fear are reflected in the passages I cited. However, since you mention it, they actually DO produce fear (and therefore, a kind of 'respect'). That is their intention, in some cases. Take, for example, Revelation 12:3

"Dragon with seven heads and ten horns with crowns=The final powers controlling the world"

We now know, of course, that dragons do not exist. But the people of biblical times thought they were real. The imagery as described is a terrifying one. In fact, the dragon was thought to be one form of the devil.

He sees it that way because that's what he expects of the ancient culture that produced them.

Not at all. What I see is fear, superstition, and ignorance reflected in the imagery that was used to depict certain conditions. It was thought that those conditions were brought about by gods and demons; or that a supreme God was punishing man for his wicked ways. In many cases, fearful people sacrificed animals or performed some ritual to appease such gods or God, or to ward off evil spirits. At one point in Judaic history, Jews even sacrificed their infants to the pagan god Moloch.

He may be surprised to find out that these ancient cultures are far more sophisticated and realistic than he is or you are. But to see that would require doing some real learning. Otherwise, his (and your) "points" are all just bluster and nonsense.

I find it difficult to see these ancient cultures which practiced human sacrifice, for one thing, as sophisticated and realistic. In fact, I find it impossible to see modern Christianity as sophisticated and realistic, since it continues to utilize and honor the same symbolism in its rituals and belief system (the symbolic eating and drinking of Jesus's flesh and blood, for example).

On top of these rituals and beliefs, we have piled on apocalyptic prophecies of a highly sensational (and terrifying) nature. What then follows is a resolution via of an intervening Godhead, who, via of supreme control and force, creates a cosmos that is, basically, a perfectly obedient machine that has no freedom of thought or will of its own. Christianity is, then, a religion of extremes: extreme evil subdued and contained finally by extreme goodness.

Don't be so asinine. No, I'm not a trained historian, but I can read. I can read what trained historians say. I can also read what linguists and biblical studies people say. And I have a brain and can sift wheat from chaff. That's called critical reflection, and it's entirely absent from godnotgod's procedure, as it is from yours. You both simply reject what you don't understand and accuse those who do understand of playing about with superstitious mumbo jumbo.

The bottom line is that the Bible should be plainly understood by the average person. In fact, as I understand it, Yeshua spoke to largely illiterate audiences, the common man. The rest layered over his words by others is indeed a lot of mumbo jumbo, and I doubt if Yeshua would approve any of it. In fact, he was the main critic of the mumbo jumbo of the time.

Yeshua knew that people had it backwards, that they were relying on their intellectual deciphering of the scriptures to gain Paradise. He was trying to tell them that they needed to get Paradise FIRST, and THEN the scriptures, which are accounts ABOUT the spiritual experience, would make themselves clear, simply because the ordinary thinking mind cannot fathom the mind of the Infinite. It is the Infinite which must transform the mind first so that it can then see correctly. It must be raised to the level of the Infinite so that man can then "see as God sees".

We call this transformation of mind, "Enlightenment".

You don't get to the threshold of Enlightenment via of scholarly, intellectual endeavors, but via of the intuitive mind.
 

footprints

Well-Known Member
What malarkey. Facts are propositions that are held to be true regardless of beliefs. They are not subjective. Few modern Christians kid themselves that they can "prove" the resurrection in an evidential sense, but they believe it to be a fact on the basis of faith. There is a difference between convincing someone that something is factual and making a reasonable proof that it is factual, as countless purchasers of snake oil cures have discovered in the past.

It is obvious that he never meant to say anything as absurd as that. He asked for proof in the OP, and nobody has come up with anything other than faith in scripture as a basis for believing in the resurrection. That kind of evidence is not sufficient to prove the claim.

No, they have failed to do so by any objective measure of proof.

Copernicus, you have done nothing in this thread except give your own opinion of your own belief. Condemned anybody who opposses that belief. So you have faith in your belief, that makes you the same as those you condemn.

As you cannot disprove the resurrection, nor can you prove it, everything is open for conjecture. Even your own belief.
 
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