-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Question for Christians
- Thread starter comradesoul
- Start date
comradesoul
Member
Hi Ba'al,
knowing virtually nothing about Islam or the Quran have somehow picked up the impression that that history has it's share of warfare against it neighbors also. I mean look what happened in India.
One thing that is of paramount importance to me is free will of each soul to choice which path in life he will follow as long as it is injurious to others. The idea of conversion by the sword makes no sense to me.
There was a situation in Afghanistan recently where some man decided to become Christian and the whole country wanted to kill him. He had to be helped in leaving the country with his life. Is this sort of thing really taught in the Quran?
Thanks
knowing virtually nothing about Islam or the Quran have somehow picked up the impression that that history has it's share of warfare against it neighbors also. I mean look what happened in India.
One thing that is of paramount importance to me is free will of each soul to choice which path in life he will follow as long as it is injurious to others. The idea of conversion by the sword makes no sense to me.
There was a situation in Afghanistan recently where some man decided to become Christian and the whole country wanted to kill him. He had to be helped in leaving the country with his life. Is this sort of thing really taught in the Quran?
Thanks
Ba'al
Active Member
I agree completely. That's just 1 reason people now days have a hard time accepting christianity. They have a very bloody history. As for Islam, it has never been spread by the sword. Indonesia has the highest population of muslims per capita and never has a muslim army been there. The same can be said of many countries. In fact, Islam is fastest growing religion in North America and Europe and it is being spread by peaceful means. The Quran teaches peace and respect of other religions, but there are always black sheep in any religion who do not practice what their religion teaches.
No, but unfortunately there are muslims who act in this manner, as there are jews and christians as well. We can't blame the actions of some on the religion itself.
comradesoul
Member
How can you say Islam has never been spread by the sword. I' been to Mathura India where the temple where Krishna is said to have been born and seen the Mosque that now sits where the Krishna temple used to be.
I don't wish to argue but I sense you may not be completely forthcoming.
I don't wish to argue but I sense you may not be completely forthcoming.
The harm caused by these wicked people affected far more people and probably caused many more deaths than if they had been destroyed, as God commanded.
Remember, this was God's judgment, not man's. The mass killings by the nations of this world are in no way God's will and God will exact retribution for all the blood shed, both past and present. In fact, all of mankind share in community responsibility for the bloodshed on earth. Only by accepting God's provision for forgiveness, and separating ourselves from the organizations responsible, can we have a hope we will be spared from the consequences of the mass murders of times past and present. (Matthew 23:35,36; Revelation 18:24)
comradesoul
Member
I am very curious as to what you mean here rusra. Could you explain this statement by being more specific.
Thank you
Ba'al
Active Member
Famous historian De Lacy OLeary states History makes it clear however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of the sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myth that historians have ever repeated.
Muslims ruled Spain for about 800 years. The Muslims in Spain never used the sword to force the people to convert. Later the Christian Crusaders came to Spain and wiped out the Muslims. There was not a single Muslim in Spain who could openly give the adhan, that is the call for prayers.
Muslims were the lords of Arabia for 1400 years. Yet today, there are 14 million Arabs who are Coptic Christians(Christians since birth). If the Muslims had used the sword there would not have been a single Arab who would have remained a Christian.
The Muslims ruled India for about a thousand years. If they wanted, they had the power of converting each and every non-Muslim of India to Islam. Today more than 80% of the population of India are non-Muslims. All these non-Muslim Indians are bearing witness today that Islam was not spread by the sword.
Indonesia is a country that has the maximum number of Muslims in the world. No Muslim army ever went there.
Similarly, Islam has spread rapidly on the East Coast of Africa. No Muslim army ever went there either.
And as said earlier, Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. Comradsoul, I am not Muslim, I'm just stating facts.
comradesoul
Member
Ba'al,
Well we have different viewpoints so agreeing to disagree is our only option at this point. We can leave it to others to research how well the Coptic Christians are doing in in countries like Eqypt or Christians in general do as minorities in Arab countries.
One thing is that the word sword can refer to the literal sword and it can refer to different forms of force and intimidation.
I am no defender of fanatical Christianity when it raises it's head or religious fanatics under any flag for that matter. As for myself I consider myself unaffiliated with any religion. I do find some teachers more inspiring than others though. I find any teacher that teaches religious intolerance not worth listening to though. And they come preaching under all sorts of religious banners.
Oh and fasting growing religions do not impress me in any manner. If anything, in this world, it makes me more suspect.
Peace in God
Well we have different viewpoints so agreeing to disagree is our only option at this point. We can leave it to others to research how well the Coptic Christians are doing in in countries like Eqypt or Christians in general do as minorities in Arab countries.
One thing is that the word sword can refer to the literal sword and it can refer to different forms of force and intimidation.
I am no defender of fanatical Christianity when it raises it's head or religious fanatics under any flag for that matter. As for myself I consider myself unaffiliated with any religion. I do find some teachers more inspiring than others though. I find any teacher that teaches religious intolerance not worth listening to though. And they come preaching under all sorts of religious banners.
Oh and fasting growing religions do not impress me in any manner. If anything, in this world, it makes me more suspect.
Peace in God
Last edited:
jaareshiah
Member
Modern America is truly immoral and wicked, along with all the rest of the nations of the world. That is why all the nations of the world are called a composite "wild beast" at Revelation 13:1 and these will, at God's appointed time in the near future, will in turn be wiped off the face of the earth.(Rev 19:17-19) However, when God told the nation of Israel to "devote to destruction" the Canaanites, it was because of their wickedness and the infectiousness of their false religious activities that involved debased immoral behavior.
Too, the Canaanites were in reality, squatters on the land. God had told Abraham, in 1943 B.C.E., that his "seed" was to take possession of the land of Canaan.(Gen 12:7) God, being the Supreme Sovereign, had the right to remove anyone he wished, especially that which is wickedly infectious. If you knew that an infectious disease was passing around, one with deadly effects, what would you do ? Go near someone that had the infection ? In order to insure that his people were removed from any infectiousness of the inhabitants of the land of Canaan, from their immoral and degraded religious practices, God decreed that they all be "devoted to destruction."(Ex 22:20; "utterly destroyed", King James Bible)
At Exodus 23:31-33, in 1513 B.C.E., God said to the nation of Israel before entering the land of Canaan: "And I will fix your boundary from the Red Sea to the sea of the Phi·lis´tines and from the wilderness to the River; because I shall give into your hand the inhabitants of the land, and you will certainly drive them out from before yourself. You are not to conclude a covenant with them or their gods. They should not dwell in your land, that they may not cause you to sin against me. In case you should serve their gods, it would become a snare to you.
As has been seen, the Canaanites were very immoral, and in their religious worship, sacrificed infants and children to their god Baal. Children were conceived as a result of "immoral indulgence, as a religious rite, in the presence of their gods", and then turned around and offered them "as a sacrifice to these same gods." What revulsion ! These deserved to die, and therefore God gave the command to remove these from the land of Canaan, "devoting them to destruction."
On the surface, God's exterminating the Canaanites might have seemed inconsistent with his love.(1 John 4:8) However, that love becomes quite apparent when we take a closer look. God knew long beforehand that Canaanite inhabitants were headed in the wrong direction. Yet, instead of immediately wiping them out, he patiently allowed 400 years to pass until their error had "come to completion."(Gen 15:16) When the sin of the Canaanites reached the point where all hope of improvement was gone, God brought their end. Even so, he did not blindly execute all Canaanites. Why ? Because not all were beyond reform. Those willing to change, such as Rahab and the Gibeonites, were shown mercy.(Josh 9:3-11, 16-27; Heb 11:31)
Some have asked how a God of love could destroy humans. That question is understandable, for the destruction of human life is not pleasant to contemplate. Really, though, it was God's love that impelled him to take such drastic measures against the wicked. To illustrate: When a patient develops gangrene (as so many in Haiti after the earthquake), doctors often have little choice but to amputate the infected limb. Few would enjoy performing such a procedure, but a good doctor knows that the alternative - the spread of infection - is worse. Because he cares, he carries out this unpleasant task for the good of the patient.
Similarly, God did not enjoy destroying the Canaanites. He himself says: "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked."(Eze 33:11, Darby's Bible) At the same time, he purposed for the nation of Israel to produce the Messiah, the one who would open the way to salvation for all those exercising faith.(John 3:16) Thus, God simply could not allow Israel to become infected by the disgusting practices of the Canaanites. He therefore ordered the Canaanites to be cut off, or evicted, from the land. In so doing, God demonstrated outstanding love - love that moved him to perform an unpleasant task for the benefit of his faithful worshippers.
The Scripture in what is called the old testament was the scripture in the churches beginnings and still is today. The old testament was the Property of Israel and it was their testament of their God. It had in it many of the things prophesied to happen. Early Christian converts were mostly Israelites and Jews who would only know if what was Promised been fulfilled in their long awaited Messiah..
Ba'al
Active Member
They deserved to die? Do you believe Cannanites lived much different than other peoples of the earth?
comradesoul
Member
But like so many others you did not mention what inspiration it is to in your efforts to follow Christ.
sonofskeptish
It is what it is
That's because Islamic countries like Iran have no homosexuals...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_3RUwAJ_MI
And because acts like this are not considered rape...
Muhammad, Aisha, Islam, and Child Brides
And to close, here's information on individualism, women’s rights and sexuality under Islam...
http://www.reasonproject.org/newsfeed/item/indias_groupthink_on_islam/
My intention is not to paint Islam in a bad light, but instead to highlight the absurdity of claims that Islamic countries have a better track record on human rights and social problems.
Last edited:
Who wrote the old testament? and who wrote the new one?
How did they come to us?
What does it mean when 2nd mouse says"the old covenant is now obsolete and God will now withhold His wrath against those who resist until the end of days. However without understanding the history you cannot rightly understand the new covenant. Sadly most of the Christian church today only has a superficial understanding of the gospel mixed with a lot of erroneous teachings"? can we say that a holy book or part of it is now obselete? Is it not eternal and universal? And if the Christian church today has a supperficial understanding of the gospel which is its main interest , what about other ordinary people? Please reply.
How did they come to us?
What does it mean when 2nd mouse says"the old covenant is now obsolete and God will now withhold His wrath against those who resist until the end of days. However without understanding the history you cannot rightly understand the new covenant. Sadly most of the Christian church today only has a superficial understanding of the gospel mixed with a lot of erroneous teachings"? can we say that a holy book or part of it is now obselete? Is it not eternal and universal? And if the Christian church today has a supperficial understanding of the gospel which is its main interest , what about other ordinary people? Please reply.
Danmac
Well-Known Member
First of all there are several old testament quotes in the new testament. So some of the old testament does apply to the church. However... when Christ came he ushered in the new covenant, which did away with the old. You have to remember, Israel at the time of Moses was a theocracy. Many of the old testament laws were governing laws for the land of Israel. Gentile land's have their own governments, of which the Law of Moses has no say.
Ba'al
Active Member
But it is your intention. Isn't that why you follow me around the forum trying to cast Islam in a bad light with points irrelevant to the OP? I've never mentioned Islamic countries having a better track record with human rights. Human rights are related to government. Social problems are more related to the citizens. And since you want to argue about that, here are the actual statistics:
1.burglaries per capita
Burglaries (per capita) by country. Definition, graph and map.
2.rapes per capita
Rapes (per capita) by country. Definition, graph and map.
3.murders per capita
Murders (per capita) statistics - countries compared - NationMaster
4.robberies per capita
Robberies (per capita) by country. Definition, graph and map.
5.drug offences per capita
Drug offences by country. Definition, graph and map.
6.total crimes per capita
Total crimes (per capita) by country. Definition, graph and map.
Notice the best scores go to Islamic countries (Indonesia, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Azerbaijan, etc)
comradesoul
Member
Right. So why do Christians bother carrying it around? The Old having been done away with.
Yes there is wisdom in proverbs and inspiration to worship is certainly found in Psalms. However I find wisdom outside of the Bible also as well as inspiration to worship. But all that pertains to that Jewish culture of thousands of years ago really means nothing to me and my present circumstances and I see no relevance to following the teachings of Christ and believing all the stories and cosmological refferences in the OT to be literal truth and the Word of God which we hear 99% of Christians pledge themselves to.
Last edited:
I would be happy if I citassi the biblical passages on where you think that the Old Testament teaches that
Leviticus 20,1-27 1The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Say to the Israelites: Anyone between the Israelites or of the strangers who reside in Israel will give some of his children to Molech must be put to death the people of the country indeed stone. 3Anch'io will set my face against that man and cut him off from his people because he gave one of his children to Molech with intent to defile my sanctuary and profaning my holy name. 4SE the people of the country closes eyes when that man gives one of his children to Moloch, and not put him to death, 5io will set my face against that man and against his family and eliminate from his people with him who strove to idolatry as he descends to worship Moloch
6SE a man turns to necromancers and soothsayers to give himself to the superstitions behind them, I will set my face against that person and will eliminate in his people.
7Santificatevi therefore and be holy, for I am the Lord your God 8Osservate my judgments and do them. I am the Lord that he wants to make saints.
9Chiunque cursed his father or his mother shall surely be put to death, he cursed his father or his mother, his blood shall be upon him.
10Se one commits adultery with the wife of his neighbor, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
11Se has a relationship with his stepmother, he uncovers the nakedness of his father, both of them shall be put to death: their blood shall be upon them.
12Se has a relationship with her daughter, both of them shall be put to death have committed an abomination; their blood shall be upon them.
13Se has a relationship with a man as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination, and must be put to death: their blood shall be upon them.
14Se one takes into wife, daughter and mother, is a crime, you will burn with fire him and them, because there is among you such a crime.
15L'uomo that brutalizes with a beast shall surely be put to death, you must kill the beast.
16Se a woman approaches an animal to get dirty with it, killing the woman and the beast, both should be put to death: their blood shall be upon them.
17Se one takes his sister, her father's daughter or daughter his mother, and sees her nakedness and she sees his nakedness, it is a disgrace, and they shall be removed in the presence of children of their people: he has discovered the nakedness of his sister, will bring the penalty his iniquity.
18Se one has a relationship with a woman during her rules and uncovers her nakedness, that man has discovered the source of her and she discovered the source of their blood, so both will be removed from their people.
19Non have any sex the sister of your mother or sister of your father, who reveals his own flesh, both will bear their iniquities.
20SE has a relationship with the wife of his uncle, discovers his uncle's nakedness; all Both will carry the penalty of their sin, they shall die childless.
21SE one takes his brother's wife, is an impurity, he discovered his brother's nakedness, they shall be childless.
22Osserverete So all my statutes and all my requirements and do them, because the country where I am bringing you to live there discards.
23Non follow the customs of the nations that I am about to drive out before you, they have done all those things, therefore I abhor
24th I told you: You have their own country, I will give it owned, it is a land flowing with milk and honey. I am the Lord your God will have separated from other nations.
25Farete therefore distinguish between clean beasts and unclean, between unclean birds and clean and you will not disgusting, eating animals, birds or creatures that crawl on earth and that I have done as distinguished unclean.
26Sarete holy to me, for I the Lord am holy and have separated you from other people, because you're mine.
27Se man or woman among you, exercising necromancy or divination, will be put to death will be stoned and their blood shall be upon them. "
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
letter from the apostle Paul Jewish 10,24-31 24Cerchiamo also stimulate one another in charity and good works, 25senza deserting our meetings, as some have the habit of doing, but instead exhorting one another, especially as you can see how the day is approaching.
26Infatti if we sin willfully after having received the knowledge of truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, the 27th only a fearful expectation of proceedings and the heat of a fire that will devour the rebels. 28Quando someone has violated the law of Moses is put to death without mercy on the word of two or three witnesses. 29Di then how much greater punishment do you think will be judged worthy who has trampled the Son of God and considered profane the blood of the covenant by which he was a holy day and have despised the Spirit of grace? 30Conosciamo he that says: Vengeance is mine! I will repay! And again: The Lord will judge his people. 31E terrible fall into the hands of the living God!
Paul's letter ebrei12 .18 to 29 18Voi Indeed there have come to a tangible place and a blazing fire, nor darkness, darkness and storm, 19né a trumpet blast and the sound of words, while those who heard begged that God does not addressing more at the word; 20Non could tolerate the injunction: If even a beast touches the mountain or stoned. 21A shows, in fact, was so terrifying that Moses said: I fear and tremble. 22Voi you have come to Mount Zion and the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem and myriads of angels, festal gathering 23rd Assembly of the firstborn enrolled in heaven, to God the Judge of all the spirits of just men made perfection, 24al Mediator of New Covenant and the blood that speaks more eloquently than that of Abel.
25Guardatevi therefore not refuse him who speaks, for if they did not find those escape who refused him who promulgates decrees on earth, much less I find us to turn our backs on Him who speaks from heaven. 26THE fact one day his voice shook the earth, but now has made this promise: Once more I shake not only the earth but also heaven. 27La word once again indicates that the things that can be shaken are intended to pass, as created things, because those who remain steadfast. 28Perciò, since we inherited an unshakable kingdom, let us keep this grace and through him they worship pleasing to God, with reverence and fear; 29perché our God is a consuming fire.
Danmac
Well-Known Member
The first five books of the old testament (the Torah) contains the laws which were to be used to govern the nation of Israel. That law does not apply to the Church. However the church has adopted some of those laws. The rest of the old testament books are historical (which is also part of the Torah) , poetic, and prophetic. The Apostles relieved the church of levitical law, (read Acts 15) but much of the old teastament is relevant to the body of Christ.
Ba'al
Active Member
What is the source that says the laws do not apply to the church?
What does "but much of the old testament is relevant to the body of Christ" even mean? Relevant to Christians? What parts of the OT are relevant and what parts aren't?