What book is yours now?

dust1n · Jan 27, 2010

I want to read into Taoism. I saw this on the stick..

"Main article: Dao De Jing

The Dao De Jing, or Tao Te Ching as it is most commonly rendered in English, was written in a time of seemingly endless feudal warfare and constant conflict. The literal meaning of the title is approximately "Way Virtue Classic" (see Dao De Jing for a more in-depth discussion on translating the book's title into English.)

According to tradition, the book's author, Lao Zi, was a minor court official for an emperor of the Zhou dynasty. He became disgusted with the petty intrigues of court life, and set off alone to travel the vast western wastelands. As he was about to pass through the gate at the last western outpost, a guard, having heard of his wisdom, asked Lao Zi to write down his philosophy, and the Dao De Jing was the result. Lao Zi was reflecting on a way for humanity to follow which would put an end to conflicts and strife. He came up with a few pages of short verses, which became the Dao De Jing. This is the original book of Taoism. "

So this "Dao De Jing" is the like the real deal correct?

Taoren · Jan 27, 2010

The Tao te Ching is real if you read Chinese and have a teacher to guide you through it. If you have neither then enjoy it for what it is but by far is not the most important book about Taoism - but as for the Tao - Te it is wondrous if read with an open mind and heart.

It was written by a man nicknamed Laotzu - maybe!!! Even Taoists dont 100% agree on this, matter of fact in the original the style of characters used can help date the book throughout the years it was written. I believe the first few chapters are the originals but the rest were put in to make a small cannon.
The book itself has absolutely nothing to do with Taoism, matter of fact it has very little to do with even the tao. It is mainly a book that on a philosophical level presenting the three treasures ( ci, jian and the third wei tianxia xian, in which Taoist practices were based off of) for the first time in history, in which represent "te" the absolute truth to the wondrous Tao - in other words Tao in action through man -

dust1n · Jan 27, 2010

Looks pretty down my alley. I see in the first few chapters some 'autonomy' talk. Like that. I think I might sit down and read this tomorrow.

Master Vigil · Jan 31, 2010

Why don't you consider the Tao Te Ching as having anything to do with Taoism, or even Tao for that matter?

How about Zuangtzu?

Taoren · Jan 31, 2010

Its a book that is used to teach virtue, not a path parse unless you take it literally - the "path to virtue" which many of the philosophical Taoists should note it for.

Master Vigil · Feb 1, 2010

"Virtue" as discussed in the Tao Te Ching, however, is understanding Tao and living one's life according to it. How is that not... taoist?

Taoren · Feb 1, 2010

It was not written by a Taoist, not for a Taoist nor with Taoism in mind.
Taoists adopted it and learned from it in which we practice the three virtues but in no way shape or form do we consider it solely Taoist, it was evolved from the heavens and through a man born to share his wisdom on virtue.
Tao is nothing to man until it is practiced by learning "te", without te Tao is formless.

Master Vigil · Feb 2, 2010

Taoren said:
It was not written by a Taoist, not for a Taoist nor with Taoism in mind.
Taoists adopted it and learned from it in which we practice the three virtues but in no way shape or form do we consider it solely Taoist, it was evolved from the heavens and through a man born to share his wisdom on virtue.
Tao is nothing to man until it is practiced by learning "te", without te Tao is formless.

Why don't you consider Lao Tzu (or whoever actually wrote it) a Taoist? What makes someone a Taoist in your opinion?

And why don't you think the Tao Te Ching teaches Te?

dust1n · Feb 2, 2010

Master Vigil said:
Why don't you consider Lao Tzu (or whoever actually wrote it) a Taoist? What makes someone a Taoist in your opinion?

And why don't you think the Tao Te Ching teaches Te?

Only.. for educational purposes.. why is 'Te', and why did I need to know 'Te' before reading the Tao Te Ching.

I'm already at a disadvantage because I cannot read Chinese, I have no teacher to guide it through me, and now I can't even use the book because I'm 'Te'less?

Taoren · Feb 2, 2010

Your fine have fun - thats what you want to hear right?

dust1n · Feb 3, 2010

Well, not really, if I wanted to have fun I would go have it. What I'm interested in is 'Tao', and what 'Te' means so that I can have some basis of why it's important I should know it, and how it ties into 'Tao'. I got 100 other books on my shelf I could pick up and it be just as interesting, but I'm not, I'm trying to understand what this religion is about, because from what I understand it relies on human autonomy, something I'm already a fan of.

laughing marmot · Feb 3, 2010

Scholars generally divide Taoism into two separate categories--sometimes three, although I forget what the third one is--philosophical Taoism & religious Taoism. From my undertanding, the Tao Te Ching, & secondly the Chuang Tzu, are the seminal texts when discussing philosophical Taoism. Religious Taoism adds to these the I Ching & all sorts of metaphysical beliefs about deities & powers. I don't understand or try to understand most of religious Taoism.

In philosophical Taoism, the Tao is the Way. As Lao Tzu states at the beginning of the Tao Te Ching, the Tao that can be named is not the real Tao. It can't really be understood with words & concepts, but Lao Tzu & Chuang Tze try to enlighten us thus, anyway.

Te means virture, but not quite the same way that most westerners think of virtue. There isn't neccessarily a set of rules to follow; how one acts virtuously depends a lot on the given circumstances.

Other key concepts in philosophical Taoism include Wu Wei (non-doing) & P'u (the uncarved block). Of course there are varying translations of these words & understandings of what they mean.

What's most important to remember is that you can't go against the Tao. The Tao flows on, no matter what. It is the Way. Like an infinitely large Yin-Yang turning & churning, everything balances out. Imagine a surfer riding the crest of a wave, allowing her whole being to move liquidly along with the troughs & the peaks of the ocean surface. In a sudden flash of insight, she realizes that she is literally One with the wave &, therefore, One with the ocean itself. Of course, even before she realized this, it was all ready true, & after she forgets, it will still be true. This is the Tao.

dust1n · Feb 3, 2010

laughing marmot said:
Scholars generally divide Taoism into two separate categories--sometimes three, although I forget what the third one is--philosophical Taoism & religious Taoism. From my undertanding, the Tao Te Ching, & secondly the Chuang Tzu, are the seminal texts when discussing philosophical Taoism. Religious Taoism adds to these the I Ching & all sorts of metaphysical beliefs about deities & powers. I don't understand or try to understand most of religious Taoism.

In philosophical Taoism, the Tao is the Way. As Lao Tzu states at the beginning of the Tao Te Ching, the Tao that can be named is not the real Tao. It can't really be understood with words & concepts, but Lao Tzu & Chuang Tze try to enlighten us thus, anyway.

Te means virture, but not quite the same way that most westerners think of virtue. There isn't neccessarily a set of rules to follow; how one acts virtuously depends a lot on the given circumstances.

Other key concepts in philosophical Taoism include Wu Wei (non-doing) & P'u (the uncarved block). Of course there are varying translations of these words & understandings of what they mean.

What's most important to remember is that you can't go against the Tao. The Tao flows on, no matter what. It is the Way. Like an infinitely large Yin-Yang turning & churning, everything balances out. Imagine a surfer riding the crest of a wave, allowing her whole being to move liquidly along with the troughs & the peaks of the ocean surface. In a sudden flash of insight, she realizes that she is literally One with the wave &, therefore, One with the ocean itself. Of course, even before she realized this, it was all ready true, & after she forgets, it will still be true. This is the Tao.

Welcome to the forums! And thanks for the insight, I was having trouble getting any. I saw that at the beginning of the Tao Te Ching, and thought it rather profound. Thanks for the definition as "Te" as well, and I think I understand it in comparison to Western virtue, because 'te' would not be a completion of objective dogmas, but rather, a personal ability to adjust ethically to fit the subjective situation, recognizing that not one rule will apply in all situations. Would this be somewhat correct?

laughing marmot · Feb 3, 2010

Yeah, that sounds about right, & thanks for the welcome. Some other good books on Taoism are "the Tao of Pooh" & "the Te of Piglet" by Benjamin Hoff & "Watercourse Way" by Alan Watts.

dust1n · Feb 3, 2010

Heh, I got lot's of reading to do.

And they say true translation is impossible.

godischange · Feb 4, 2010

I very much agree with laughing marmot (great name, btw), and if you don't mind I'll elaborate a bit, based on my own interpretation. (that's an important caveat for Taoism especially, since Taoism is very much a practice centered around self and self-understanding, so what is true for me may not be so for you).

It's perfectly ok if you don't read Chinese and you don't need a teacher to help you through the Tao Te Ching. I would strongly suggest getting two versions of it in English however, because while they address the same sentiment, different translations go about it in very different ways. I also find that an annotated version is a nice thing to have, because some verses sound odd (IE: "True love seems indifferent" - annotations explain that the word "indifferent" could also be translated as formless or unattached, in that a Taoist who truly loves, loves everyone without exception). My personal favorite is the Stephen Mitchell translation.

The Tao is an amazing guiding force and you are always connected to it, which is what makes it so wonderful. Essentially, following your heart and your conscience will keep you true to the Tao. I describe Taoism as a living practice- so while Christians go to church to worship, Taoists create their own form of worship by acting in accordance with the Tao and using it to guide their thoughts and actions. That way, Taoists are always in the process of worshiping as they acknowledge the Tao in their lives and strive to follow it.

Please please feel free to message me if you have questions or want to chat more about Taoism!

laughing marmot · Feb 4, 2010

godischange said:
I very much agree with laughing marmot (great name, btw), and if you don't mind I'll elaborate a bit, based on my own interpretation. (that's an important caveat for Taoism especially, since Taoism is very much a practice centered around self and self-understanding, so what is true for me may not be so for you).

It's perfectly ok if you don't read Chinese and you don't need a teacher to help you through the Tao Te Ching. I would strongly suggest getting two versions of it in English however, because while they address the same sentiment, different translations go about it in very different ways. I also find that an annotated version is a nice thing to have, because some verses sound odd (IE: "True love seems indifferent" - annotations explain that the word "indifferent" could also be translated as formless or unattached, in that a Taoist who truly loves, loves everyone without exception). My personal favorite is the Stephen Mitchell translation.

The Tao is an amazing guiding force and you are always connected to it, which is what makes it so wonderful. Essentially, following your heart and your conscience will keep you true to the Tao. I describe Taoism as a living practice- so while Christians go to church to worship, Taoists create their own form of worship by acting in accordance with the Tao and using it to guide their thoughts and actions. That way, Taoists are always in the process of worshiping as they acknowledge the Tao in their lives and strive to follow it.

Please please feel free to message me if you have questions or want to chat more about Taoism!

Thanks, godischange! & I agree, multiple translations help a great deal.

Alceste · Feb 4, 2010

dust1n said:
Welcome to the forums! And thanks for the insight, I was having trouble getting any. I saw that at the beginning of the Tao Te Ching, and thought it rather profound. Thanks for the definition as "Te" as well, and I think I understand it in comparison to Western virtue, because 'te' would not be a completion of objective dogmas, but rather, a personal ability to adjust ethically to fit the subjective situation, recognizing that not one rule will apply in all situations. Would this be somewhat correct?

Having trouble getting any? * snicker *.

Anyway, re: te, that sounds about right. Friends of mine who should know such things define te as "spontaneous right action". ("Right" in this case means "leading to the optimal outcome", not "morally correct".)

I enjoy the Tao te Ching, but it's the sort of book that either tells you things you've already realized or tells you nothing at all. If I had a nickel for every Westerner I've talked to whose read the thing from cover to cover and still thinks "Tao" is Chinese for "God" I could buy a first edition of every English translation by a writer who thinks "Tao" is Chinese for "God".

Speaking of which, be careful which translation you pick up. The literal ancient Chinese verses say stuff like "tao name not tao" (no proper nouns in Chinese), which fanciful Anglophiles will expand to half a page of blabbering nonsense, with ten pages of commentary on top of that explaining what it all means, all of it wrong (*cough* Thomas Cleary * cough *). With this book, less is more. A good translation should not sound behaviorally prescriptive (do this - don't do this!!) - it should read more like an observation of cause and effect (if this, then this). If you read a few different translations you'll see how the character of the translator really comes through.

dust1n · Feb 4, 2010

godischange said:
I very much agree with laughing marmot (great name, btw), and if you don't mind I'll elaborate a bit, based on my own interpretation. (that's an important caveat for Taoism especially, since Taoism is very much a practice centered around self and self-understanding, so what is true for me may not be so for you).

It's perfectly ok if you don't read Chinese and you don't need a teacher to help you through the Tao Te Ching. I would strongly suggest getting two versions of it in English however, because while they address the same sentiment, different translations go about it in very different ways. I also find that an annotated version is a nice thing to have, because some verses sound odd (IE: "True love seems indifferent" - annotations explain that the word "indifferent" could also be translated as formless or unattached, in that a Taoist who truly loves, loves everyone without exception). My personal favorite is the Stephen Mitchell translation.

The Tao is an amazing guiding force and you are always connected to it, which is what makes it so wonderful. Essentially, following your heart and your conscience will keep you true to the Tao. I describe Taoism as a living practice- so while Christians go to church to worship, Taoists create their own form of worship by acting in accordance with the Tao and using it to guide their thoughts and actions. That way, Taoists are always in the process of worshiping as they acknowledge the Tao in their lives and strive to follow it.

Please please feel free to message me if you have questions or want to chat more about Taoism!

Why, thank both you very much. When I start getting into it, I'll probably be posting discussions up a lot. Each chapter seems pretty thread worthy in itself.

dust1n · Feb 4, 2010

Alceste said:
Having trouble getting any? * snicker *.

Story of my life.

Anyway, re: te, that sounds about right. Friends of mine who should know such things define te as "spontaneous right action". ("Right" in this case means "leading to the optimal outcome", not "morally correct".)

See, just because we don't have a word for it in English, doesn't mean we can't describe it with multiple words.

Westerns aren't so unenlightened now, are they?

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