Did Jesus say he was God???

Ba'al · Feb 2, 2010

AK4 said:
but do you realise how much nonsense has been taught into the world but these scholars.

No, maybe you can give us some examples. What I see are Christians that make up their own ideas because scripture contradicts what they want to believe.

AK4 said:
When you come the truth you will see what i mean.

Why can't we come to the truth by knowing the facts? Why must we manipulate and distort scripture in order to believe?

AK4 said:
The bible is like a giant jigsaw puzzle. It wasnt written so everyone could understand it easily.

This is what you say when the puzzle doesn't fit. Does it really make sense to you that God would reveal the way we should live in a puzzle that hardly anyone can solve? What would be the point? If God wants us to know something, surely He would let us know, otherwise He doesn't. Why then in other scripture is it clear what God expects from us?

AK4 said:
Maybe its just me, but i know overtime my style of writing changes, sometimes not even over time, but as quickly as my mood can change so can my style, yet this couldnt be with those apostles?

I can't believe scholars haven't thought of that! Wait till they find out. Maybe if you write a book about your theory now, you'll get all the credit when the truth is exposed.

AK4 said:
I would write it with just enough difference to make it different but i would also write it so it didnt contradict any of the others. Maybe that's just me.

But if you were writing with a different theological viewpoint than the others, you'd have to change the stories. That way you could get some people to believe what you want them to believe, depending on:
1. you were a Jew and wrote for the Jewish audience
2. you were a gentile
3. you were writing to a Roman audience to distance yourself from the Jew
4. you believed Jesus was divine

Ba'al · Feb 2, 2010

AK4 said:
This is laughable. As mentioned here Apologetics Press - Chronology and the Cleansing of the Temple this i one you skeptics favorite "discrepencies"

Ok, I read that pathetic article. So in order to reconcile the discrepancy you are saying that Jesus cleansed the temple of merchants twice? Then why does Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John mention it once? Remember the viewers on the forum will be judging your answers. After your refute we'll move on to the next discrepancy.

Muffled · Feb 3, 2010

301ouncer said:
Ok maybe then you all can come and answer the question I need answering that is related to my research. The question is in Unitarian Christiannity and islam. Thank you for you help.:slap:

I took a look at your thread but I didn't find a question, just a lot of nonsense about how heretics were actually the real Christians which is too amusing to take seriously.

Christianity was hardly out of the box before the first heresy appeared promoted by the Judaizers. Fortunately God had already resolved that issue through His revelation to Peter that Gentiles could become Christians.

That is what makes Christians different from Jews and Muslims. We have God with us to determine what is true and what is not.

Trusue · Feb 3, 2010

Jesus is not God, never was God, never will be God. The Bible says God created Jesus as the firstborn of all creation, Col.1:15 and he is called the beginning of creation by God at Rev. 3:14
Jesus is the Amen, your prayers cannot be heard by God, unless you use pray in the name of Jesus. If you believe Jesus is God, then you are the antichrist, 2Joh 1:7 Jesus was born a man.

AK4 · Feb 3, 2010

Ba'al said:
Ba'al said:

No, maybe you can give us some examples. What I see are Christians that make up their own ideas because scripture contradicts what they want to believe.[/COLOR]

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Okay for starters helleverlasting punishment, eternity/eternal, trinity, this list could get very lengthy if youd like. And all these plus probably 100 more all came from these scholars and theologians, yet for some reason people still put so much faith in them.

I agree with the Christian thing, its a religion of contradiction, same as Judaism, same as almost all the teachings in the world.

Why can't we come to the truth by knowing the facts? Why must we manipulate and distort scripture in order to believe?

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I believe an example of manipulating scripture would be to say something like this is not what the writers intent or the author of John may not be John so what this scripture says in John may not be valid. You know, something along those lines.

This is what you say when the puzzle doesn't fit.

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No this is the reality of the scriptures. This is what the scriptures teach--here a little there a little. Havent you read this?

Does it really make sense to you that God would reveal the way we should live in a puzzle that hardly anyone can solve? What would be the point? If God wants us to know something, surely He would let us know, otherwise He doesn't. Why then in other scripture is it clear what God expects from us?

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See, if you think that it is written for all to understand easily, then youll never understand God and His plan and His purpose. Have you read the scriptures? Read why Jesus said He ONLY speaks to the multitudes in PARABLES. Have you not read

Pr 25:2 - It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings is to search out a matter

And since you dont know that it is/was His purpose for the multitudes [this includes the multitudes of today also] not to understand, then you wouldnt understand the point of it all either.

I can't believe scholars haven't thought of that! Wait till they find out. Maybe if you write a book about your theory now, you'll get all the credit when the truth is exposed.

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I know!! Maybe I will make a lot of money off it, start my own church and make even more money off it. Thanks for the idea!! NOT!! Anyway Jesus said to the Pharisees that they strain out a gnat and swallow a camel when it came to God, this is the same thing with your scholars and theologians that you put so much faith in.

But if you were writing with a different theological viewpoint than the others, you'd have to change the stories. That way you could get some people to believe what you want them to believe, depending on:
1. you were a Jew and wrote for the Jewish audience
2. you were a gentile
3. you were writing to a Roman audience to distance yourself from the Jew
4. you believed Jesus was divine

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Not necessarily, you are just believing what these scholars are telling you. What if he wrote it to be exactly what it is and left it up to God to do the rest? So what if he didnt write it:

depending on if:
1. you were a Jew and wrote for the Jewish audience
2. you were a gentile
3. you were writing to a Roman audience to distance yourself from the Jew
4. you believed Jesus was divine

Now I personally see how the latter is the truth and not these theologians and scholars imaginings, why? Well it truly all boils down to the myth of freewill and I guarantee 99% of these scholars and theologian hold tight to this idol of the heart and thats why they come up with

depending on if:
1. you were a Jew and wrote for the Jewish audience
2. you were a gentile
3. you were writing to a Roman audience to distance yourself from the Jew
4. you believed Jesus was divine

Paul sums it up rather bluntly to why John had to just write it to be exactly what it is and that all is just left up to God. Will you see it?

1Co 1:21 - For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

And those that believe get that faith from God so guess what, its all left up to God no matter who John was writing the book for.

AK4 · Feb 3, 2010

Ba'al said:
Ok, I read that pathetic article. So in order to reconcile the discrepancy you are saying that Jesus cleansed the temple of merchants twice? Then why does Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John mention it once? Remember the viewers on the forum will be judging your answers. After your refute we'll move on to the next discrepancy.

Oh no, not the people on the forum. Its paramount to asking why did they only record some miracles once or twice. Its paramount to asking why John said there were many many more things Jesus done yet why did they all record some of the same ones. Why not make them all different? See its a mute argument

arimoff · Feb 3, 2010

AK4 said:
And the proofs right there. You guys wont even spell out God. The word God is a title. The same word used by the pagans yet you cant spell it out because you think its blasphemy.LOL. Throughout the tanak it is said to call on the name of the Lord. What do yall do, call out "g" "dash" "d"? Come now...and yall are supposed to "know what God is"

I really don't get you, I spell G-D and it supposed to mean I don't know Him?
We pronounce His names when we pray or read Torah, but other wise we say Hashem meaning The Name.

You shall not take the name of the L-rd your G-d in vain.
a.k.a the ten commandments.

maybe it's hard for you to understand but thats Judaism.

I can show you how much i studied, and i can show you how much you havent. Okay, you dont consider Jesus to be your Lord and God, fine. How about a great prophet. No lets just say prophet. Now if you agree with that then and you say that Moses and Jacob heard God, then you say Jesus, a prophet, lied numerous times when He said no man has seen or heard God at anytime. Now if you believe a true prophet of God could be a liar then you MUST throw out all of your tanak and OT. Now try to answer that intelligently and scripturally and without contradiction.

Why would he be a great prophet? what has he done? He maybe holly for you, but what has he done for the Jewish people to be a prophet to them? cause them millions of deaths? if he is G-D he would never allow for his own people to be killed in HIS NAME!!!!

Deuteronomy 13
1. Everything I command you that you shall be careful to do it. You shall neither add to it, nor subtract from it.
2. If there will arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of a dream, and he gives you a sign or a wonder,
3. and the sign or the wonder of which he spoke to you happens, [and he] says, "Let us go after other gods which you have not known, and let us worship them
4. you shall not heed the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream; for the Lord, your God, is testing you, to know whether you really love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul

If I believe in Jesus I will go against the passages that I showed you.
Torah clearly states do not add or subtract from it, isn't Jesus is the salvation and there is no more need to follow those laws? contradiction.

Again, to go follow other, Jesus being son of a G-D means I have to follow another G-D other then the one who took me out of Egypt.
is that enough for you?

Oh so you follow all that is in the torah right? So how many have you put to death for blaspeming God? or for not following one of those 600 odd ordinances? None? Well well well, dont we have a conumdrum here

Rather then sounding stupid why don't you find out for your self?
Half of the laws in the Torah I can't follow because they apply only when we live in Israel and there is a Temple.

You been spying on me? How do you know since coming to God i havent changed?

Im not spying on you, I don't need to, I can tell by what you say.

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Ba'al · Feb 3, 2010

AK4 said:
Okay for starters helleverlasting punishment, eternity/eternal, trinity, this list could get very lengthy if youd like. And all these plus probably 100 more all came from these scholars and theologians, yet for some reason people still put so much faith in them.

You just proved my case. I said scholars, as in historians and textual critics that examine the bible with an objective viewpoint. Theologians are like priests, pastors, etc that analyze the bible through believers eyes. And that is where all that nonsense you just mentioned came from.

AK4 said:
I agree with the Christian thing, its a religion of contradiction, same as Judaism, same as almost all the teachings in the world.

No, not all scripture is contradictory like the bible.

AK4 said:
I believe an example of manipulating scripture would be to say something like this is not what the writers intent or the author of John may not be John so what this scripture says in John may not be valid. You know, something along those lines.

Well how about saying something like "the gospels contradict each other and although it's impossible for them all to be true, I will believe them anyway because a christian told me to."

URAVIP2ME · Feb 3, 2010

Ba'al said:
So in order to reconcile the discrepancy you are saying that Jesus cleansed the temple of merchants twice? Then why does Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John mention it once?

You just overlooked the time frame:

Please notice Jesus zeal and sense of justice at the beginning of his ministry:
John 2:12-22; Matthew 13:54; Luke 4:23

Now, please notice that Jesus visits the Temple again much later in his ministry:
Matthew 21:12,13,18,19 (John 12:20-27); Mark 11:12-18; Luke 19:45-48

Ba'al · Feb 3, 2010

I don't understand your refute URAVIP2ME. Please address specifically why:
In John(2:13-16) Jesus clears the temple merchants at the beginning of his ministry.
In Mt(21:12-13), Mk(11:15-18), and Lk(19:45-46) Jesus clears the temple merchants at the end of his ministry.

URAVIP2ME · Feb 3, 2010

AK4 said:
Its paramount to asking why did they only record some miracles once or twice. Its paramount to asking why John said there were many many more things Jesus done yet why did they all record some of the same ones. Why not make them all different? See its a mute argument

The Bible writers are witnesses for each other. (Matt 18:16) Jesus said out of the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses a thing is established. So using that as a precedent to verify internal harmony shows that even though many Bible writers did not know each other, or even live in the same time frame they still spoke in agreement on the written page.

The thickness of the Bible as it is, is enough to last one for a lifetime of study and meditation. We have written what is necessary to have until the new books or scrolls of Revelation are opened. 2nd Tim 3:16,17 mentions what purpose Bible knowledge is good for us to now have and use.

If we are classed as one of the sheep-like ones at Christ's right hand of favor when he comes in 'glory' (Matt 25:31,32; 16:27) then we will be alive and living on earth at that time, and will remain alive or keep on living right into Jesus peaceful 1000-year rule over earth.

301ouncer · Feb 5, 2010

Ba'al said:
I don't understand your refute URAVIP2ME. Please address specifically why:
In John(2:13-16) Jesus clears the temple merchants at the beginning of his ministry.
In Mt(21:12-13), Mk(11:15-18), and Lk(19:45-46) Jesus clears the temple merchants at the end of his ministry.

Welcome to the Pharisee Raabanical Political Party and their infiltrating agents.

The home of the Lizard and spider, Serpents and brood vipers.

Hey URAV, not you I am talking about but someone else.

Formula stands the test:

NT + Pharisees (Lizard and spider, Serpents and brood vipers) = Polytheism/Paganisim = No Salvation = PPP & Judaism Victory.

NT - Pharisees (Lizard and spider, Serpents and brood vipers) = Monotheism/Unitarian = Salvation = Jesus & Islam Victory.

301ouncer · Feb 6, 2010

[FONT=&quot]You only see Jesus referred to as God in the annoymous gospel of John, which was the gospel to be written last. Which coincides with many other religious teachers in that they are viewed as God long after they are dead!!! :facepalm:

[/FONT]

URAVIP2ME · Feb 6, 2010

Where in John's Gospel is Jesus referred to as God?

Compare John 1:1 with Acts 28:6 the same Greek language grammar rule applies in both.

John believed: John 1:34_________________
Nathanael believed: John 1:40_________________
Peter, and the 12, believed: John 6:69________________
Jews believed: John 10:33,36 B __________________________
Martha believed: John 11:27________________________

URAVIP2ME · Feb 6, 2010

Ba'al said:
I don't understand your refute URAVIP2ME. Please address specifically why:
In John(2:13-16) Jesus clears the temple merchants at the beginning of his ministry.
In Mt(21:12-13), Mk(11:15-18), and Lk(19:45-46) Jesus clears the temple merchants at the end of his ministry.

Sorry for the confusion. Not at the very exact start but early on.
Then, later toward the end of his ministry.

Twice Jesus clears out the money changers:
First time was after wedding at Cana.
Years later when Jesus rode the colt .

Compare location of where Jesus was at the first incident and then the last.

John's account mentions the wedding at Cana then vs 12 Jesus went down to Capernaum for many days then to Jerusalem.

Matthew's account is much later in chapter 19 then to Jerusalem in chapter 21.

Luke adds Jesus passed through Jericho first on the way to Jerusalem when he rode on the colt. The Wedding at Cana took place much earlier, and his riding on the colt now much later. That makes it two times Jesus threw out the money changers out of the temple.

301ouncer · Feb 6, 2010

URAVIP2ME said:
Where in John's Gospel is Jesus referred to as God?

Compare John 1:1 with Acts 28:6 the same Greek language grammar rule applies in both.

John believed: John 1:34_________________
Nathanael believed: John 1:40_________________
Peter, and the 12, believed: John 6:69________________
Jews believed: John 10:33,36 B __________________________
Martha believed: John 11:27________________________

Is the author of the bible an author of confusion? From 1 christ believing person to another christ believing person you get a whole compeletly different answers!!!

Different answers on the most important principles of creed!!! Nowhere you would see such differeing articals of faith among other faith groups.

URAVIP2ME, dont take me seriously I am just lost for words right now.:sad4:

arimoff · Feb 6, 2010

301ouncer said:
Is the author of the bible an author of confusion? From 1 christ believing person to another christ believing person you get a whole compeletly different answers!!!

Different answers on the most important principles of creed!!! Nowhere you would see such differeing articals of faith among other faith groups.

URAVIP2ME, dont take me seriously I am just lost for words right now.:sad4:

But yet they are also based on a calling of one man, so how some of the other believes are any different? Regardless of how many answers you can have or even set rules for answers they are all based on a word of one person. Was Jesus who people say he was or did he even think he is a son of a G-D to me it is the same as Muhammad claiming to receive word of G-D. No one to prove it just trust in one mans words.

Ba'al · Feb 7, 2010

arimoff said:
Was Jesus who people say he was or did he even think he is a son of a G-D to me it is the same as Muhammad claiming to receive word of G-D. No one to prove it just trust in one mans words.

True, and Jesus never claimed to be God in the first place, which is paramount. At least Mohammad did claim he received word from Gabriel and produced the Quran to back up his claim. Even if one doesn't believe his claim, it's still an amazing book from an illiterate person. That is at least some form of evidence for the faith of Muslims, especially since it hasn't been modified since first written.

David69 · Feb 7, 2010

Ba'al said:
True, and Jesus never claimed to be God in the first place, which is paramount. At least Mohammad did claim he received word from Gabriel and produced the Quran to back up his claim. Even if one doesn't believe his claim, it's still an amazing book from an illiterate person. That is at least some form of evidence for the faith of Muslims, especially since it hasn't been modified since first written.

Hi,
Is it this Mohammad that said the Messiah will live untill he is 40 and he will have red hair? If he did know this through God then I have up untill seventeen days left here on earth! BUT, what if the Messiah lives untill well over 40yrs of age?
If phrophets reveiled insights from God today, they are classed as having psychosis!
I know! Anyways, I dont have red hair! Then you can argue that I have psychosis and I am not having insights from God but just misunderstanding my dreams!!!
If I die before the 24th by being struck on the back of my head and my hair turns read with blood then this mohammad will have known the truth. But would the world even notice little old me to relate this phrophecy?
When the true Messiah that should have already forfilled phrophecys stands up to the world and explains the truth and gives the world the code that relates himself to Jesus, would the Muslims Accept this truth? or is the hatred so great it will blind them? Even the Jews will have to lose face so it mightened be that bitter a pill to swallow.

301ouncer · Feb 7, 2010

David69 said:
Hi,
Is it this Mohammad that said the Messiah will live untill he is 40 and he will have red hair? If he did know this through God then I have up untill seventeen days left here on earth! BUT, what if the Messiah lives untill well over 40yrs of age?

You are qouting from hadith?

Yes the messiah will live untill he is 40 i think or will be on earth for 40 years (Not sure) according to the hadith (as long as the hadith is from sahih muslim or sahih bukhari then ok) but that is after his second coming and not before. Yes he was reddish in colour but not blond.

Did Jesus say he was God???

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