Unitarian Christainity & Islam!

301ouncer said:

Hi Lucian,

I think you also believe that Lucain, Arius, and Micheal all rejected Trinity and disbleived that it was part of Jesus pbuh teachings from evidence they gathered.

If you are follower of Lucain as you name nicely says it then you have rejected Trinity too.

But, As soon as you reject Trinity you fall into polythisim in error without you even realising it. As you are fully aware Polythisim is most hineous crimes in the sight of GOD. Just As Moses in his first commandement said:

Oh hear childeren of Isreal your lord is ONE".

All other messangers advocated monothisim to their people as stated in the Quran. I know the Bible does not emphisis on this point but I Know excatly why. I will expand on this later.

I hope you understood where I am coming from when someone rejects Trinity. As all three entities become seperate and partners with GOD.

if you do reply or anyone else does to maybe correct me if I am wrong or missunderstood the situation with the concept of Trinity. IF you do reply please keep it short to say 2 to 3 paragraphs. Thank you.

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I do not believe in the Athanasian concept of the trinity, no. Neither did Lucian of Antioch, Arius of Alexandria, Michael Servetus, or the others. And yes, you have misunderstood the Unitarian belief. It is not polytheistic. Like I wrote in the first post, there is only one true God, and God is one. He is our Father. He is the source of everything. There are no separate persons of God, or "partners" with God. Jesus Christ is the mediator between men and God - he is not equal to his God and Father. He is the fulfiller of his Father's will, not his own.

As a sidenote, I am not a follower of Lucian of Antioch even though I agree with him and honor him. I am a follower of Jesus Christ.

Do you have answers to the questions I asked about the creeds which I quoted? Could they be from the Early Unitarians? Would Muslims accept them?

Lucian said:

I do not believe in the Athanasian concept of the trinity, no. Neither did Lucian of Antioch, Arius of Alexandria, Michael Servetus, or the others. And yes, you have misunderstood the Unitarian belief. It is not polytheistic. Like I wrote in the first post, there is only one true God, and God is one. He is our Father. He is the source of everything. There are no separate persons of God, or "partners" with God. Jesus Christ is the mediator between men and God - he is not equal to his God and Father. He is the fulfiller of his Father's will, not his own.

As a sidenote, I am not a follower of Lucian of Antioch even though I agree with him and honor him. I am a follower of Jesus Christ.

Do you have answers to the questions I asked about the creeds which I quoted? Could they be from the Early Unitarians? Would Muslims accept them?

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I see you point. That there are two differing Trinity creeds. So basically All the millions following the differing Trinity creed to yours have falen into polythisim. You do not have to replay to every paragraph I type some of it could be just a side note to me.

"There are no separate persons of God, or "partners" with God. Jesus Christ is the mediator between men and God - he is not equal to his God and Father. He is the fulfiller of his Father's will, not his own."

Lucian did you know that pagans and fireworshippers used mediators too. They used them as mediators when asking for help. Hindu trianitisim is the same. In the sight of GOD it does not matter if it is a man, tree or rock is the mediator all in his sight fall under Polythism.

As has been pointed out to you in earlier posts that the original writtings of the unitrian christians works destroyed, changed to conform, or burned because of the severe proscutions they revieved.

I know you could say they are unreliable but I use them to see for myself any indications of the closeness to Jesus pbuh original teachings. So yes if their some of their teachings are compatiable to the relevation of the Quran I would accept them without any problems. :yes:

Lucian or any good friend could look go back a bit from your post and could shed some light on the question i asked so I can complete my research.thanks.

301ouncer said:

I know you could say they are unreliable but I use them to see for myself any indications of the closeness to Jesus pbuh original teachings. So yes if their some of their teachings are compatiable to the relevation of the Quran I would accept them without any problems. :yes:

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This proves that speaking to the deaf is futile.

There are writings from Arius, unlike what you claim. You've not really shown anything to the contrary. If Arius had believed that Jesus wasn't the Son of God and had believed he was only a prophet then his opponents would have been all over it. And yet they weren't. The two creeds that I quoted are from Arius himself.

The Quran is not the measure of truth. There is something we call "exegetics" and "systematic theology". No, they're not tools to bolster the claims about the divinity of the Quran. If by looking if something is, or is not, in contradiction with the Quran is how you define some things to be corrupt and some not to be, then everyone is a Muslim. Sure, when Hindus write about the God they call Brahma, we can call them monotheists. Let's just call the parts about all the other Gods corruptions. Or when an atheist says that he doesn't believe in God. Let's call the denial part a corruption!

In fact, let's just take the corruptions out from my first post using this same method:
"We ... have ... believed ... Jesus was ... prophet. God is one ... we agree with the Muslims..."
There we go, now I'm a Muslim too.

I suggest looking up the meaning of polytheism. If what you say is correct, then Islam with its human oracles and an uncreated inerrant book is also polytheistic, so welcome to the club. It doesn't matter in the sight of God, after all.

The Quran is actually corrupted, it really means to say that God is three: "Say ...: three!" You're in fact a polytheist - you just don't realize it.

When the Quran calls Jesus the Word of God and the Spirit of God, we can safely conclude that he pre-existed, since it doesn't contradict the revelation. The other parts of the Quran are, after all, corruptions.

Lucian said:

When the Quran calls Jesus the Word of God and the Spirit of God, we can safely conclude that he pre-existed, since it doesn't contradict the revelation. The other parts of the Quran are, after all, corruptions.

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Ok no problem. You have your quote of Arius and I have mine. Can we move on!

Just before moving on wanted to clear your last statement:

1. “Word” from Go: A title

Jesus is referred to as a “Word” from God in three passages in the Quran. No other prophet has been described with such a title.
“…O Mary! Behold, God gives you good news of a word from Him, who shall become known as the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary...” (Quran 3:45)


2. “Spirit” from God


Jesus was a spirit, or more correctly, a soul created by God, brought by Gabriel, a mighty angel of God, and breathed into Mary:
“We blew into (her womb from her garment) through Our angel.” (Quran 66:12)

Jesus was not a ‘part,’ ‘person,’ or ‘activity’ of God that separated and dwelled inside Mary. He is called a ‘Spirit’ from God as a symbol of respect and honor, not divinity.

Rest is here The Descriptive Titles of Jesus in the Quran (part 2 of 2): A “Word” and “Spirit” from God - The Religion of Islam

This is concrete evidence that We follow pure monothisim as was taught by all the messangers of GOD.

We move on as I really need to complete my research into the following:

Who then are the authors of the books of the Bible?

Obviously the Church must know them very well since they are popularly believed to have received divine inspiration from God Himself. Right?

We will note that every Gospel begins with the introduction "According to....." such as "The Gospel according to Saint Matthew," "The Gospel according to Saint Luke," "The Gospel according to Saint Mark," "The Gospel according to Saint John." The obvious conclusion for the average man on the street is that these people are known to be the authors of the books attributed to them.

For instance, Matthew did not write the Gospel attributed to him:

"...And as Jesus passed forth thence, HE (Jesus) saw a man, named Matthew, sitting at the receipt of custom: and HE (Jesus) saith unto HIM (Matthew), follow ME (Jesus) and HE (Matthew) arose, and followed HIM (Jesus). (Matthew 9:9)"

Did "Matthew" write this about himself? Why then didn't Matthew write for example: "he (Jesus) saw ME, and my name is Matthew. I was sitting at the receipt of custom…" etc.

So my question is who are the real identits of the "Accordings" of NT and OT? Let us stick to NT for now. In the OT it narrates the death of Moses after his death!

[FONT=&quot]Inparticular I am looking for the surnames of mark mathew luke john and paul?
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Who are they? I know they were disciples but want as much information as possible on their families, background history, family source of income, tribe, any affliation to certain groups, some detailed history.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]They have their names next to GOD words so I have the right to examin the background history of their families and reputation among the community.

My salvation is based on my research onto the "Accordings". For all I know they could be Jesus's pbuh enemies trying to infiltrate to corrupt his speech. Do not take my words for it but I am at my initial research that I need to clearify the history situation on the authors of the bible. We can do the same on Muhammed pbuh too after I finished. :slap:
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[FONT=&quot] Has to be authentic with mutiple sources confirming the situation. Maybe a good 10 page detailed history.
[/FONT]
If you could paste links or info here for the sake of my research. :sorry1:

301ouncer said:

I see you point. That there are two differing Trinity creeds. So basically All the millions following the differing Trinity creed to yours have falen into polythisim. You do not have to replay to every paragraph I type some of it could be just a side note to me.

"There are no separate persons of God, or "partners" with God. Jesus Christ is the mediator between men and God - he is not equal to his God and Father. He is the fulfiller of his Father's will, not his own."

Lucian did you know that pagans and fireworshippers used mediators too. They used them as mediators when asking for help. Hindu trianitisim is the same. In the sight of GOD it does not matter if it is a man, tree or rock is the mediator all in his sight fall under Polythism.

As has been pointed out to you in earlier posts that the original writtings of the unitrian christians works destroyed, changed to conform, or burned because of the severe proscutions they revieved.

I know you could say they are unreliable but I use them to see for myself any indications of the closeness to Jesus pbuh original teachings. So yes if their some of their teachings are compatiable to the relevation of the Quran I would accept them without any problems. :yes:

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This is not the actual truth, but a biased twist on it. The talk of polythism here, about Christianity, just proves the same lack of true understanding I was speaking about before .

Kerr said:

This is not the actual truth, but a biased twist on it. The talk of polythism here, about Christianity, just proves the same lack of true understanding I was speaking about before .

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Ok Lucian, I said I see your point. A mediator amounts to setting up partners with GOD = Polythisim. I know you think I do not understand the whole concept so I will leave this point for now and hopefully it will be much clearer later on.

Can you please move on to the Question I asked a couple of posts back that is related to my research?

301ouncer said:

Ok Lucian, I said I see your point. A mediator amounts to setting up partners with GOD = Polythisim. I know you think I do not understand the whole concept so I will leave this point for now and hopefully it will be much clearer later on.

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I am not Lucian . And Christianity is not polytheistic. Mediators or not, it does not have several deities, it has one. Jesus is not God, he is not a deity, he is the son of God, sent by God to save mankind. Or something, I am not a Christian so I do not know that much about it, but that is the picture I get from Christians. In any case, that is not polytheism. But since this is of topic, I would be happy to discuss it in another thread.

Can you please move on to the Question I asked a couple of posts back that is related to my research?

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Cannot remember you asked me any question, but I will look into it later. If I remember, lol. But if it is anything where you will have to have any deeper, or not even medium deep, knowledge of Christianity I can´t answer because I am not and have never been religious enough to dig into any religion.

Kerr said:

I am not Lucian . And Christianity is not polytheistic. Mediators or not, it does not have several deities, it has one. Jesus is not God, he is not a deity, he is the son of God, sent by God to save mankind. Or something, I am not a Christian so I do not know that much about it, but that is the picture I get from Christians. In any case, that is not polytheism. But since this is of topic, I would be happy to discuss it in another thread.

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Hi Kerr, Thank you for your sincereity, Stick around here. soon we will all have more knowledge of what is going on.

[FONT=&quot]Inparticular I am looking for the surnames of mark mathew luke john and paul?
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Who are they? I know they were disciples but want as much information as possible on their families, background history, family source of income, tribe, any affliation to certain groups, some detailed history.[/FONT]

I have googled it and came up with this from an answer given in blog:

[FONT=&quot]Tax collectors, fishermen, a doctor, a pharasee.

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]And some background information that I am going through.
[/FONT]

301ouncer said:

I have googled it and came up with this from an answer given in blog:

[FONT=&quot]Tax collectors, fishermen, a doctor, a pharasee.

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]And some background information that I am going through.
[/FONT]

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Pharasees:

pharasee: The word Pharisees (lat. pharisæ|us, -i) comes from the Hebrew פרושים perushim from פרוש parush, meaning "set apart" [1]. The Pharisees were, depending on the time, a political party, a social movement, or a school of thought among Jews that flourished during the Second Temple Era (536 BCE–70 CE). After the destruction of the Second Temple, the Pharisaic sect was re-established as Rabbinic Judaism — which ultimately produced normative, traditional Judaism, the basis for all contemporary forms of Judaism, with the exception of the Karaites.

AND

pharasee : Thus, as the Pharisees argued that all Israel should act as priests, the Rabbis argued that all Israel should act as rabbis: "The rabbis furthermore want to transform the entire Jewish community into an academy where the whole Torah is studied and kept .... redemption depends on the "rabbinization" of all Israel, that is, upon the attainment of all Jewry of a full and complete embodiment of revelation or Torah, thus achieving a perfect replica of heaven."

AND

pharasee : Outside of Jewish history and writings, the Pharisees have been made notable by references in the New Testament to conflicts between themselves and John the Baptist and with Jesus.

(Dispute of Jesus and the Pharisees over tribute money)

Jesus to The Pharisees:

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the Law, justice and mercy and faith; these you ought to have done, without neglecting the others. You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel!

"But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither enter yourselves, nor allow those who would enter to go in."

[FONT=&quot]Doctors:

Rabbi, my master, a title of dignity given by the jews to their doctors of the law and their distinguished teachers. it is sometimes applied to christ.

A jewish title of respect or honor for a teacher or doctor of the law. "the gravest rabbies." be not ye called rabbi, for one is your master, even christ, and all ye are brethren.

A physician, dentist, banker can also be a DOCTOR. A doctor of rabbanic teacher.

In summary, Jesus clearly commands us to "NOT" be “called,” or to address anyone in authority as (our spiritual) "father," "rabbi = doctor = teacher," or "master = leader." Leaders are never to be referred to by any of these titles, although they may hold such a position and/or be gifted as a “leader” or "teacher." The ban is clearly on titles! The two reasons given are:

(1) Christ is our Teacher and our Leader
(2) God is our creator. The elders are to be "teachers

Titles of honor almost always produce haughtiness, arrogance, and pride.

The Doctors certainly were outraged to be on a level playing field with the poor masses.

Hatred and animosity has to be initiated to overpower the just teachings of Jesus at any given cost.



[/FONT]"The young Jesus sadly debates a lynch mob of jealous, arrogant, self-righteous scholars. The doctors are challenging him, thrusting their sacrosanct doctrines at the fresh pure voice of the youth. They are so cemented into dogma that Jesus's moral and ethical message is an affront to their hard-held authority. Citing their previous books as "gospel," they have completely ignored his message.

Jealous, arrogant, self-righteous doctors.

Titles of honor almost always produce haughtiness, arrogance, and pride:

"23:7 they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them 'Rabbi."

This All the information I have collected so far. I have some more but need to put it all together and post here later on today. Most of the information is PATCHY and irrelevant to the Question I asked earlier.

Jesus Christ strong words towards the Pharisees, and what awaits them and their followers:

"For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes [Doctors, Lawyers] and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5:20 RSV).

"He answered them, "And why do you transgress the Commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? For God commanded, 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'He who speaks evil of father or mother, let him surely die.' But you say, 'If any one tells his father or his mother, What you would have gained from me is given to God, he need not honor his father.' So, for the sake of your tradition, you have made void the Word of God." (Matthew 15:3-6 RSV) [The Ten Commandments].

"How is it that you fail to perceive that I did not speak about bread? Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees." Then they understood that He did not tell them to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees." (Matthew 16:11-12 RSV)

(Note: Just as yeast causes bread to rise, yeast was sometimes used as a symbol of sinful pride which made people haughty and "puffed up.")

"The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat; so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice. They bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with their finger. They do all their deeds to be seen by men; for they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long, and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues, and salutations in the market places, and being called rabbi by men. But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brethren. And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven." (Matthew 23:2-9 RSV)

(Note: The Pharisees were correct according to their limited perspective, and were to be obeyed by the Jews under their authority. But, they were Hypocrites.)

"But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither enter yourselves, nor allow those who would enter to go in." (Matthew 23:13 RSV).

Hatered of extraordinary propotions. Even though the Doctors and Pharisees knew very well that they are NOT going to enter the kingdom of heaven, but out of their utter hatered and despise of Jesus pbuh will never allow anyone of the masses to enter it too.

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the Law, justice and mercy and faith; these you ought to have done, without neglecting the others. You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel!"
(Matthew 23:23-24)

The Pharisees and Doctors became blind to The Messiah when He was in their very midst. They saw the miracles, they heard the message he was sent with, but instead of receiving it with joy, they did all that they could to stop Him - eventually to the point of trying without success getting Him killed because He truthfully claimed to be a messanger of GOD.

Clear cut evidence of utter hatered of Jesus pbuh and of any future generations that would follow him. Even though they know it is the truth they would never allow Jesus's followers to enter the kingdom of heaven.

Pharisees Rabbanical Political Party Manifesto: Christ and his followers are No.1 enemy and extremely dangerous to our Pharisee Rabbanical Political Party.

Wiki Source:
"The Pharisees were a political party that flourished during the Second Temple Era (536 BCE–70 CE)"

Pharisee Rabbanical Political Party's (PPP) Initial Aims and Objective:


Political Crimes and Political Assasinations of opponents:

1. Political Assasination of Messanger of GOD - John the Baptist.
2. Political Assasination of Messanger of GOD - Jesus of Nazareth.

Pharisees Be-Heading of the Messanger of GOD - John The Baptist

1. Political Assasination of Messanger of GOD - John the Baptist. Accomplished.

Pharisee Prosecution and Planned Execution of Messanger of GOD - Jesus of Nazareth.

2. Political Assasination of Messanger of GOD - Jesus of Nazareth. Not Accomplished.

301ouncer said:

1. Political Assasination of Messanger of GOD - John the Baptist. Accomplished.

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According to the Gospels, Herod Antipas married his brother's wife, Herodias. John the Baptist opposed this, but Herod feared John, knowing that he was a just man and an holy, and observed him; and when he heard him, he did many things, and heard him gladly (Mark 6:20). Still, he put him in prison for Herodias' sake (Matthew 14:3), and ordered the beheading upon the request made by Herodias' daughter, Salome, for the sake of the oath he gave her, though he was exceeding sorry (Mark 6:26). According to Flavius Josephus, Herod, who feared lest the great influence John had over the people might put it into his power and inclination to raise a rebellion, (for they seemed ready to do any thing he should advise,) thought it best, by putting him to death, to prevent any mischief he might cause, and not bring himself into difficulties, by sparing a man who might make him repent of it when it would be too late. Accordingly he was sent a prisoner, out of Herod's suspicious temper, to Macherus, the castle I before mentioned, and was there put to death (Antiquities of the Jews, XVIII). Both accounts do not mention Pharisees' influence on John the Baptist's death.

301ouncer said:

Pharisee Stonning and Planned Execution of Messanger of GOD - Jesus of Nazareth.

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Actually, this picture portrays the death of Stephen (Acts 7:54-60).

Further clear evidence of the tight-knit political relationship between the Pharisees, Doctors and Herodians:

Herodians were the (Be-headers of Messanger of GOD John the Baptist).
Pharisees were the (Planners and the prosecutors of Jesus of Nazarath).


The Herodians:

14:6 "On Herod's birthday the daughter of Herodias danced for them and pleased Herod so much 7 that he promised with an oath to give her whatever she asked. 8 Prompted by her mother, she said, "Give me here on a platter the head of John the Baptist." 9 The king was distressed, but because of his oaths and his dinner guests, he ordered that her request be granted 10and had John beheaded in the prison. 11 His head was brought in on a platter and given to the girl, who carried it to her mother." (Matthew 14:6)


The Pharisees, Doctors and Herodians:

3:4 "Then the chief priests and the elders of the people assembled in the palace of the high priest, whose name was Caiaphas, 4 and they plotted to arrest Jesus in some sly way and kill him." (Matthew 26:3-4)

3:6 "Then the Pharisees went out and began to plot with the Herodians how they might kill Jesus." (Mark 3:6)

26:59 "The chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were looking for false evidence against Jesus so that they could put him to death." (Matthew 26:59)

11:18 "The chief priests and the teachers of the law heard this and began looking for a way to kill him, for they feared him, because the whole crowd was amazed at his teaching." (Mark 11:18)