Shoe is on the other foot: Prove there is not God.

averageJOE · Jan 29, 2010

Mestemia said:
It is utterly amazing how people think that their claims stand as fact unless they are proven wrong.

AK4 said:
Wow isnt that the pot calling the kettle black

Wow. From all the pages in this thread I don't think Mestemia has made a single claim. Anyone for that matter, just the Christians who are claiming that everthing has to have a starting point, except for god. Everyone else is just challenging that claim.

AK4 · Jan 29, 2010

Mestemia said:
Mestemia said:

If you say so.

Tried to what?
Prove that the Bible does not say that god exists?
Why would I try to prove the exact opposite of what the Bible flat out states?

Click to expand...

No try to prove that there can be something before an ultimate starting point which is also saying the same thing as can something come from nothing. I dont care what anyone wants to call the thing that has to be the ultimate starting point.

Thus far all Ak4 has done is made some claims, showed how the Bible supports said claims, then challenges us to prove that the Bible does not support his claim.

So what the Bible supports his claims?
How in the hell does that make the original claims true?
It doesn't.
And everyone knows it doesn't.
Yet here is Ak4 going on and on with his smoke and mirror show.

Excuse me for not being fooled.

Click to expand...

Im sorry, i thought bringing forth info and verses to support my claims is supposed to help validate my point. If i dont do any of this to support my claims for God then what do i have? See what im saying, you guys want to throw out any proofs i or anybody who believes in God have. We are being told by you guys that we cant use the bible, only thing we can use is "papers" from scientist and scholars that can only be true proofs and can only use "common sense" and not faith stuff. Thats ridiculous and unfair. But the funny thing is i did that mostly and went to yall level and yall still have failed to answer on yall own playing field.

No skin of my back though. Heres another bible verse for you guys

"preach with sound doctrine and expose those who contradict it"
[Titus 1:9 - The New Revised Standard Version]

AK4 · Jan 29, 2010

Mestemia said:
His challenge is as asinine and worthless as the so called "Koran challenge".

Exactly.

Sadly, I seriously doubt that Ak4 can even begin to comprehend the asininity of it.

Its funny. Prove yall claims instead of attacking me. Not that yall attacks bother me. Prove it. Im not talking about proving if there is a god because i know that whatever you can possibly come with and if its true, YOU YOURSELF will prove it for me!

Ha ha ha. again "isnt it ironic".

Now that i think about it, you guys are not dumb....you know this that is why you wont even attempt it.

AK4 · Jan 29, 2010

averageJOE said:
Wow. From all the pages in this thread I don't think Mestemia has made a single claim. Anyone for that matter, just the Christians who are claiming that everthing has to have a starting point, except for god. Everyone else is just challenging that claim.

yeah and ive shattered you guys claim of "there is no need for a starting point". Ive shattered yalls, shatter mine.

Again--

you guys ---no starting point---means everything is eternal,

people who believe in a God-----must have a starting point

Now unless theres another option, prove eternal. And try something new please.

McBell · Jan 29, 2010

AK4 said:
No try to prove that there can be something before an ultimate starting point which is also saying the same thing as can something come from nothing. I dont care what anyone wants to call the thing that has to be the ultimate starting point.

I am not playing your move the goal posts game.
You claimed that everything has a starting point.
Then you claim that God does not.

To support your God does not claim, you come up with some "ultimate starting point" line and have heavily implied that if one cannot prove the falseness of this "ultimate starting point" claim that your argument is sound.

Now because no one is playing your game, you seem to think you have gained some sort of upper hand.

AK4 said:
Im sorry, i thought bringing forth info and verses to support my claims is supposed to help validate my point.

If you were to present something from a source that has some authority outside your choir, perhaps.
But the Bible has no authority outside the religious choir.

AK4 said:
If i dont do any of this to support my claims for God then what do i have?

If all you got is the Bible, then you have nothing but circular reasoning.
Circular reasoning is a logical fallacy and not accepted by those who do not accept said circular reasoning.

AK4 said:
See what im saying, you guys want to throw out any proofs i or anybody who believes in God have.

The Bible is not proof of god.

AK4 said:
We are being told by you guys that we cant use the bible, only thing we can use is "papers" from scientist and scholars that can only be true proofs and can only use "common sense" and not faith stuff.

That is correct.
Because there is nothing outside your beliefs that god exists to support that god exists.

AK4 said:
Thats ridiculous and unfair.

Why?
Because you cannot prove your belief in god without resorting solely to your belief in god to prove that god exists?

AK4 said:
But the funny thing is i did that mostly and went to yall level and yall still have failed to answer on yall own playing field.

You hav edone no such thing.

AK4 said:
No skin of my back though. Heres another bible verse for you guys

"preach with sound doctrine and expose those who contradict it"
[Titus 1:9 - The New Revised Standard Version]

This is nothing more than you using the Bible to ratify your already preconceived belief that God exists.

johnhanks · Jan 29, 2010

challupa said:
Biblical literalists get around this by saying that rabbits and hares eat their fecal pellets and store them in a fermentation chamber similar to cows. However rabbits do not have a 4 stomach system like cows so really the only thing they have in common is the fermentation chamber. Apparently eating their fecal pellets is an important source of nutrition for them.

Certainly. Lagomorphs show post-gastric cellulose digestion, ruminants pre-gastric: pretending they are equivalent is pure sophistry.

McBell · Jan 29, 2010

AK4 said:
Its funny. Prove yall claims instead of attacking me. Not that yall attacks bother me. Prove it. Im not talking about proving if there is a god because i know that whatever you can possibly come with and if its true, YOU YOURSELF will prove it for me!

Ha ha ha. again "isnt it ironic".

Now that i think about it, you guys are not dumb....you know this that is why you wont even attempt it.

Prove what exactly?

That you are doing nothing more than trying to hide all your logical fallacies with smoke and mirrors?

Been there, done that.

9-10ths_Penguin · Jan 29, 2010

AK4 said:
Heb 11:3 - By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.

Now tell me this doesnt fit.

It doesn't fit. Not into this argument, anyhow.

AK4 said:
You can only make that claim by saying the universe is eternal or always been otherwise your argument fails.

I'm not making the claim, I'm pointing out that you haven't excluded this possibility. Until you do, your argument doesn't work.

AK4 said:
First it was special pleading and now this.

Let nobody say you're uncreative in your use of logical fallacies.

AK4 said:
Yes the Word of God is the higher authority but no fallacy. That is your opinion because you dont hold the Word of God as anything.

Right - until you demonstrate to me that the Bible is an authority, the fact that some passage comes from the Bible doesn't add any extra weight or credibility to it. The mere fact that you believe the Bible to be authoritative doesn't mean that you've demonstrated this in your argument.

AK4 said:
What is my religion? You denounce my religion as false therefore its invalid to all my rebuttals? LOL wow I dont even do that to you.

If you think that's what I'm doing, then you've misunderstood what I've written.

I'm not saying that your religion is false; I'm saying that you haven't demonstrated to us that the tenets of your religion are correct. Until you do this, any statements you give that are only based on your religion are just unsupported opinions; they might be true or they might be false, but we've been given no reason to assume one way or the other.

AK4 said:
It doesnt.

- everything needs a cause.
- God doesn't need a cause.

These two statements can't be true at the same time unless God is not part of "everything"... i.e. unless God is nothing. And a thing that is nothing does not exist.

AK4 said:
I keep saying this challenge and yall avoid it like the plague. Prove that an ultimate starting point can have something before it. Thats it. I will bow out and say you are correct if you can do this. I can swallow my pride and concede. Can you or your fellow like minded thinkers?

Tell you what: I'll respond to this as soon as you demonstrate that an "ultimate starting point" must exist and that this "ultimate starting point" cannot be the universe itself.

AK4 said:
Exactly, an earlier time, the time between X1 and X2 is a time before the time that begins at X2

And this is different from a "time before time".

AK4 said:
As far as our science goes it does prove that something cannot come nothing.

It does? Please explain how you came to this conclusion. Please tell us the specific scientific principles that support it.

AK4 said:
This is a fact until proven otherwise.

No. Again: that's not how it works.

AK4 said:
So has it ever been demonstrated that something can come from nothing? I dont think.

It has, actually: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_fluctuation

AK4 said:
Im sorry, I forgot. You think that a ultimate starting point can have something before it so it hasnt been established. Come now

No, I think you haven't established that an "ultimate starting point" must exist.

AK4 said:
How incoherent is this---prove that an ultimate starting point can have something before it.
Why havent you guys done this yet?

"Ultimate starting point" is just a term you came up with. You haven't demonstrated that such a thing actually exists.

David69 · Jan 29, 2010

ak4 your beating your head against a brick wall with this lot m8 jmo

McBell · Jan 29, 2010

David69 said:
ak4 your beating your head against a brick wall with this lot m8 jmo

I have to completely agree.

Perhaps he will take this thread as a learning experience that people outside his choir want actual evidence, not logical fallacies...

challupa · Jan 29, 2010

johnhanks said:
Certainly. Lagomorphs show post-gastric cellulose digestion, ruminants pre-gastric: pretending they are equivalent is pure sophistry.

Yeah, pretty much!

cottage · Jan 30, 2010

AK4 said:
Again, unless you can come up with a logical, myabe scientific or even philosophical way to tell me how an ultimate starting point can have something before it "my truth" stands. The ball has been yalls court for how many pages now in this thread to try to prove this? In actuality you guys special plea argument is a special plea argument until you show a way that an ultimate starting point can have something before it. In the words of Alanis Morisette

"Isnt it ironic"

With respect there seems to be some confusion here. What you refer to as the ultimate starting point is known as the Uncaused or First Cause Argument. But you are not stating it properly. Your argument appears to be that if there is an uncaused cause then nothing can come before it. Well of course! All youve done is stated an analytical truth, a tautology. If a thing is uncaused then it cannot itself be caused, by definition. So what you have to do is to demonstrate that there is a first, or uncaused cause, and then your argument is made. But having done that you would of course still need to show that this first cause is God.

David69 · Jan 30, 2010

at first there was consciousness then thought, then awareness then "will" then realisation of will and then manifestation of will!!! in my opinion ofcourse!

The horses mouth.

McBell · Jan 30, 2010

David69 said:
...The horses mouth.

Seems to me you are confusing the ends...

Charity · Jan 30, 2010

Mestemia said:
Seems to me you are confusing the ends...

Clear cut case of not being able to tell heads or tails......Glad it's not Derby time...

David69 · Jan 30, 2010

Mestemia said:
Seems to me you are confusing the ends...

"Roars of laughter" you are funny if nothing else lol but you'll like this even better..
Straight from the lips of GOD~David 69~ "your" Messiah

McBell · Jan 30, 2010

David69 said:
"Roars of laughter" you are funny if nothing else lol but you'll like this even better..
Straight from the lips of GOD~David 69~ "your" Messiah

The only thing bigger than your tales is your ego.

David69 · Jan 30, 2010

Mestemia said:
The only thing bigger than your tales is your ego.

When the book of my life comes out and people dig deep and people that have witnessed marvoulous things back up my storys including the medical world and I forfill the prophecys etc, then you will me looking dumb m8... we will see. your canoe will be missing that paddle when your stuck up s... creek the flys are storming around you not me lol

McBell · Jan 30, 2010

David69 said:
When the book of my life comes out and people dig deep and people that have witnessed marvoulous things back up my storys including the medical world and I forfill the prophecys etc, then you will me looking dumb m8... we will see.

See, you have so much to look forward to, why the mega-ego now?

David69 · Jan 30, 2010

Mestemia said:
See, you have so much to look forward to, why the mega-ego now?

Actually I havent got an ego

Shoe is on the other foot: Prove there is not God.

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