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Graven images of Jesus
- Thread starter john313
- Start date
john313
warrior-poet
20:5 does go on to say:Sunstone said:
"Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me; "
it appears to me to be saying do not make any graven image at all. It says don't do this and don't do that, rather than don't do this for that.
but i can see why some would try to explain it away with that answer.
James the Persian
Dreptcredincios Crestin
If so, how do you explain the images that God ordered to be made on the Ark of the Covenant and in the Temple? Was He contradicting Himself? The prohibition is indeed on idolatry and not on simple images. Even the Jews contemporary with the early Church understood this as you can see from decorated synagogues of the time. There is a big difference between an image and an idol.john313 said:
James
20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
(This is not a prohibition against pictures or statuary, but against an attempt to replace worship of the Creator with worship of His creation or some created thing in the creation (Romans 1:21-25). One may attempt to represent God by a graven image of some demonic spirit (or "god") or by a pantheistic mental construct of the infinite. Any such worship or representation (the key phrase is "unto thee") is blasphemous and is forever prohibited by this key commandment. "We ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device" (Acts 17:29).)
20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
(This apparently severe judgment on innocent children cannot contradict the teaching throughout Scripture (Ezekiel 18:19-20) that each person is individually responsible before God (Romans 14:12). Nevertheless, it is true that ungodly parents tend to produce ungodly children and grandchildren. In this way, God's judgment is exercised upon the descendants "that hate me.")
Terrywoodenpic
Oldest Heretic
This whole concept is a totally old Testament Jewish view of God.john313 said:
Jesus gave us a new insight of a loving forgiving God.
Pictures and statues of the holy family and saints are aids to teaching the scriptures and for focussing the mind.
The Graven images being referred to were of other Gods used for worship.
Terry
_______________________________________
Amen! Truly I say to you: Gather in my name. I am with you.
James the Persian
Dreptcredincios Crestin
I owe you frubals for this comment (can't give you any yet, though), and you're not even Orthodox or Roman Catholic!Terrywoodenpic said:
James
john313
warrior-poet
God has no image, God is spirit.
Is it only the christians that do not realize they make Jesus an idol to be worshipped? It seems everyone else understands it. we can agree that it says not to make an idol and call it a god for worship. Unfortunately that is what has happened.
If i made an image of a peacock, because God appeared to me as a peacock, and i put it up on an alter and prayed in front of it. would that be idolatry? I am not saying the image i produced is God, but that God appeared like a peacock and i use the peacock image to help focus my mind on God.
Is it only the christians that do not realize they make Jesus an idol to be worshipped? It seems everyone else understands it. we can agree that it says not to make an idol and call it a god for worship. Unfortunately that is what has happened.
If i made an image of a peacock, because God appeared to me as a peacock, and i put it up on an alter and prayed in front of it. would that be idolatry? I am not saying the image i produced is God, but that God appeared like a peacock and i use the peacock image to help focus my mind on God.
Halcyon
Lord of the Badgers
Seems to me that whole commandment was a hit back at the other religions of the time. Many religions use images and idols to focus their thought and prayer, its an easy way to demonize the practices of opposing faiths by targeting image/idol worship.
As an aside, this whole Jesus/image argument is pointless anyway, since none of the images made (especially in the west) even look remotely like he would have.
As an aside, this whole Jesus/image argument is pointless anyway, since none of the images made (especially in the west) even look remotely like he would have.
James the Persian
Dreptcredincios Crestin
No, Christ could only be an idol if He was not God. If He is God, how could worshipping Him be idolatry? That's just nonsense. If you judge Christianity from your own perspective, denying the divinity of Christ, then of course you will see it as idolatry, but if you look at it from our point of view, just for a second, you'll see that the accusation is baseless, because we do believe Christ is God. That's why we're Christians.john313 said:
James
James the Persian
Dreptcredincios Crestin
Really? How do you know? I'd agree that the usual western Nordic Jesus is nonsense as is the overreaction of the Negro Jesus, but have you ever looked at the way Christ was traditionally portrayed in iconography (and still is in Oriental and Eastern Orthodox churches for the most part)? I fail to see how anybody could find fault with a depiction of Christ as a bearded, dark-haired, olive-skinned, brown-eyed Jew with long hair. Ok, I know that some dispute the long hair, but Holy Tradition says it was long (hence our long-haired priests and bishops), the earliest icons depict Him in this way, and there was a tradition amongst the Jews for not cutting the hair (the Nazarenes, for instance), so I think those who insist on short hair are arguing from a factually flimsy base. How do you think Christ probably looked if not as I described above?Halcyon said:
James
Dr. Nosophoros
Active Member
"Witchcraft" and "magick" is forbidden yet prayer is an acceptable form of religious magick, Diviners and fortune tellers are "evil" yet how many faithful have claimed to see "visions"?
And so it goes.
And so it goes.
john313
warrior-poet
but in my example God appeared as a peacock, which would make that peacock God.IacobPersul said:
so from your point of view, based on your above comment, the peacock image would be ok if God appeared to me as a peacock? from my point of view as the observer of the divine peacock of course.
