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Christianity Demonizing Women

Uncertaindrummer

Active Member
Pah said:
It still doesn't - nor does it recognize rights for men. Even the 19th Amendment, commonally called "Women's Suffrage Rights", is gender neutral. .But the interpretations of the Constitution have, through most of it's history, been male for male purposes. The 19th was required because the Supreme Court did not hold the 15th to apply to women as voting citizens (don't know the case offhand) and states were joining in that precedent. It has ALWAYS been male interpretation be it Constitutional (until Justice O'Connel took the bench) or Biblical.

I do! (er, ... did) Ah, not in those exact figurative words but in the denying of girls to serve as acolytes and women in the church proper to have heads coverd. No scriptual readings by women. It has only been in my lifetime that changes were made and probably much less than 40 years ago. What was then, is little changed in the minds and policy/dogma of some churches today.

Only by religious practise and willfully ignoring Constitutional provisions. Every church, diocese, or whatever is incorporated under state law. Every corporation must follow Federal social policy as reflected in Constitutional law. Just as a business may not openly deny an executive position because of gender, so too should a religious corporation be held to the same standard. It has absolutely nothing to do with what church authority says is a "proper" calling or what you deem is what is right or wrong for you. It is a principle of American law gloriously ignored by some churches.

Some women have had that calling and the education in seminary to match it. They were denied by the Catholic Church. It is not a matter of faith between her and God but the decision by church authority, contrary to American justice, that kept that woman from being a priest.

It is still a chauvinistic fraternity thet demeans the humanity of women.. That a female will accede to the inferior placement does not justify it.
Certainly you know I would believe that those women do not truly have the calling to the priesthood. The religious life? Certainly. There ARE religious lives open to women.

Saying that churches should be held to the same standard as legal systems and business is ABSURD. Indeed that is the most outrageous thing I have heard in this thread. It is the belief of Catholics that women can't be priests. Why should we be forced to change for the State? That would be tantamount to religious persecution.

Women, in Catholicism, CANNOT be called by God so obviously thsoe women who are "stopped" from being priests were not called to the Church. Disagree with our theology? Fine. Maybe you should start a thread arguing for women priests. But it is certainly not anti-women to assert that they cannot be priests, anymore than it is anti-man to claim men can't be nuns.
 

Pah

Uber all member
Uncertaindrummer said:
Certainly you know I would believe that those women do not truly have the calling to the priesthood. The religious life? Certainly. There ARE religious lives open to women.

Saying that churches should be held to the same standard as legal systems and business is ABSURD. Indeed that is the most outrageous thing I have heard in this thread. It is the belief of Catholics that women can't be priests. Why should we be forced to change for the State? That would be tantamount to religious persecution.

Women, in Catholicism, CANNOT be called by God so obviously thsoe women who are "stopped" from being priests were not called to the Church. Disagree with our theology? Fine. Maybe you should start a thread arguing for women priests. But it is certainly not anti-women to assert that they cannot be priests, anymore than it is anti-man to claim men can't be nuns.
You really do seem to confused in who does the calling. If it were the church and not God, don't you think there would not be such a shortage of parish priests world-wide. The church could just go up to a man and say "The church calls you to the priesthood" and voila, the shortage is largely solved.

God seems to call a lot of Protestant woman.
During the 20-year period 1973-1993, the enrollment of women in ATS schools grew from approximately 10% to more than 30%. In mainline Protestant and ecumenical schools, women constitute more than half of the student body. Protestant schools with an evangelical orientation enroll considerably fewer women (approximately 14% in 1986). Women students enrolled in M.Div. programs are considerably less likely than men to be planning a career in pastoral ministry and are more likely to seek employment as counselors or chaplains (O'Neill and Grandy 1994). http://hirr.hartsem.edu/ency/Seminaries.htm
This is the same God doing the calling as you have I beleive - or do you think God considers the church and just doesn't call women to the Roman Catholic Church.
Roman Catholic seminaries experienced overall declines, especially in the number of candidates preparing for the priesthood (Carroll 1989). These declines have reached crisis proportions in recent years, even as total U.S. Catholic membership is growing (Schoenherr and Young 1993). Same source.
Somebody is sure not calling enough men for you

You might not like this link for a group of German Catholic women called to the priesthood
http://womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/1408/

"Saying that churches should be held to the same standard as legal systems and business is ABSURD." They certianly don't have too - but they would have to organize as a private organization. As long as a church takes tax benefits, however, it must meet the standards of society. See the Supreme Court case involing Bob Jones University. The Boy Scouts of America are finding less and less government agencies to financially support them - that's their price for being private and discriminatory.
 

Aqualung

Tasty
NothingIsNot said:
For aqualung.

Ok I hear ya, but why is being a priest a man's job?

I can't say for sure why being a preist is a man's job, but it had to be somebody's job, and I guess luck of the draw had it being a man's job instead of a woman's. It couldn't be both people's jobs, because, as I said earlier, women and men are complimentary. They can't both have the same jobs, or there would be too much focus in one area and not enough in the other. The preisthood just happened to be conferred upon men, alnong with other gifts, whereas women got different gift, to compliment the man's. Once again, though, I'm not sure why it was the man and not the woman that got preisthood, but it has been that way since before this world was created
 

greatcalgarian

Well-Known Member
Melody said:
Now I look at is as, if women were property, there would have been no need for the second admonition of "not coveting thy neighbor's wife" since it would have been covered under the "neighbor's property".
I would like the ten commandment more, if it is written as "not coveting thy neighbor's wife or thy neighbor's husband", which will then cover both for woman and man. Giving equality to both sexes:jiggy:

As it is written, the ten commandment appeared to me to be just for man:D
 

greatcalgarian

Well-Known Member
Pah said:
I'm fairly disgusted in the talk about a complementary gender and different roles where some of RF members seem to find justification to dishonor humanity in favor of a male domination. "Sorry, my wife, you're to have babies, I'm to have a career and lead religions". It is merely the repeat of finding Biblical justification for slavery. The "maleness" of so much of religion is abhorant and goes to show there is nothing divine in religion but a man-made power trip.

Trip on you fellows but you're not kin to me nor the acceptors of Constitutional rights and freedom.
Behind every successful man there is a woman:jam: . So goes the saying. The rationale? These successful men are being dominated by their wife at home, so they go out of the home to conquer the world and be dominant in the field of science, politics, law, etc etc.

For those men that dominated their wife, they will never be successful, as they feel satisfied having dominated their partner in life, and have no desire to go and seek success or domination elsewhere.

Not sure whether this makes sense or not in this debate of male female gender role?
 

greatcalgarian

Well-Known Member
Catholic has given a high status to Mary, almost on par with Jesus, hence the Catholic church may think that it is not necessary to give any more important position to woman, such as to become a priest.

On the other hand, Protestant has denied the importance of Mary, suppressing her role in the gospel, and hence try to promote woman minister in order to appear to be fair to both sexes?
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
The Bible teaches that men and women are equal in nature but different in their physical makeup and their roles; I think there is no denying that.

What is more, I believe the point is just as valid now.:)

This is an interesting linkthat picks out all the salent points from the Bible. http://www.religioustolerance.org/ofe_bibl.htm
 

Pah

Uber all member
michel said:
The Bible teaches that men and women are equal in nature but different in their physical makeup and their roles; I think there is no denying their roles;....
It's the "roles" that seem to be the sticker. Immediately before America entered WWII it was men on the production line that made the goods for war. When the men left to do the fighting, women took over the means of production and put out a fantastic effort that hasn't been equalled since. Now tell me, were the original roles wrong and women should have be making bombs and guns and ships of war? Women seemed to have filled that role and without them the would have been less effort - the war would have been longer and more soldiers killed. So that particular "role" seems to be "misplaced" for when the men came home the women were kicked back to homemaking - which they did while making war supplies too!. Don't give me that crap about roles - it is just a justification for male dominence. Women fy the largest airplanes, the best fighter aircraft from carriers. These are out of the proper role? Give me a break.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Pah said:
It's the "roles" that seem to be the sticker. Immediately before America entered WWII it was men on the production line that made the goods for war. When the men left to do the fighting, women took over the means of production and put out a fantastic effort that hasn't been equalled since. Now tell me, were the original roles wrong and women should have be making bombs and guns and ships of war? Women seemed to have filled that role and without them the would have been less effort - the war would have been longer and more soldiers killed. So that particular "role" seems to be "misplaced" for when the men came home the women were kicked back to homemaking - which they did while making war supplies too!. Don't give me that crap about roles - it is just a justification for male dominence. Women fy the largest airplanes, the best fighter aircraft from carriers. These are out of the proper role? Give me a break.
Male dominance ? what's that ? Seriously I agree with you. Mum said just what you said about the war; and that was perhaps just one little 'good' that did come out of the war.........:)
 

Uncertaindrummer

Active Member
Pah said:
You really do seem to confused in who does the calling. If it were the church and not God, don't you think there would not be such a shortage of parish priests world-wide. The church could just go up to a man and say "The church calls you to the priesthood" and voila, the shortage is largely solved.


God does the calling, not the Church. You are the confused one. Women may believe He has called them (and He mgiht have, to the religious life), but in our belief system he coudl never call a woman to the priesthood because He made His priesthood for men.

God seems to call a lot of Protestant woman.
You certainly don't think I believe Protestantism has the fullness of Christianity. Protestantism is not part of the question. You are questioning Catholic beliefs.

This is the same God doing the calling as you have I beleive - or do you think God considers the church and just doesn't call women to the Roman Catholic Church.


No He doesn't. You read the Bible. Any women priests? Umm... nope.

Somebody is sure not calling enough men for you
Or He is and men just aren't answering.</FONT>

You might not like this link for a group of German Catholic women called to the priesthood
I also don't liek that there are heretics in the world. Does that mean there are no more heretics?
</FONT>

As long as a church takes tax benefits, however, it must meet the standards of society.
Aand yet Preists enjoy priviliges in confession. The truth is, we make exception for religious practices because if we don't, then the seperation of Church and state becomes ridiculous, since Church comes udner the jurisdiction of the state. And by the way, how do I get this filthy green color off my replies?

 

Uncertaindrummer

Active Member
greatcalgarian said:
Catholic has given a high status to Mary, almost on par with Jesus, hence the Catholic church may think that it is not necessary to give any more important position to woman, such as to become a priest.

On the other hand, Protestant has denied the importance of Mary, suppressing her role in the gospel, and hence try to promote woman minister in order to appear to be fair to both sexes?
Yes I WOULD like to point out that Catholics, who always get plastered for our stance on women priests give WAY mroe honor to the women of the Bible than any other Christian group, and yet no one mentions that.

One thing though, calgarian, we do not put Mary anywhere near Jesus. Jesus is God, Mary is not. We simply believe that in honoring Mary we are following Jesus' example, and so we do it a lot. But it is for the glory of God that we do.
 

Aqualung

Tasty
Pah said:
It's the "roles" that seem to be the sticker. Immediately before America entered WWII it was men on the production line that made the goods for war. When the men left to do the fighting, women took over the means of production and put out a fantastic effort that hasn't been equalled since. Now tell me, were the original roles wrong and women should have be making bombs and guns and ships of war? Women seemed to have filled that role and without them the would have been less effort - the war would have been longer and more soldiers killed. So that particular "role" seems to be "misplaced" for when the men came home the women were kicked back to homemaking - which they did while making war supplies too!. Don't give me that crap about roles - it is just a justification for male dominence. Women fy the largest airplanes, the best fighter aircraft from carriers. These are out of the proper role? Give me a break.

That's a good example of women's roles in society, and how they change a lot. But that has absolutely nothing to do with an unchanging God's role that he proscribed for women and men since the beginning of time. It may be so that women has until now been opressed out of the roles of being fighter-pilots in society, but they haven't been oppressed out of proper, honourable roles in God's society. This thing about roles isn't crap to God - that's just the way it goes.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Seyorni said:
Aqualung -- How many LDS women hold clerical positions within the church? How many go on missions?
What exactly do you mean by "clerical positions"? Women do not hold the Priesthood in the LDS Church. If you are asking how many of the Church's Apostles and other "General Authorities" are women, the answer is "none."

Currently there are roughly 10,000 young women serving missions for the Church.

It's my understanding that men and women in the LDS church have clearly defined social roles, not easily transgressed without various degrees of opprobrium.
As in "barefoot and pregnant"?

Perhaps you have been misinformed as to the role of women in the Church. Women, as well as men, both pray and give talks (i.e. sermons) before congregations often of several hundred people, and both hold positions of leadership, not only on the ward (i.e. congregation) or stake (i.e. diocese) levels, but over the 11-million member Church as a whole. Women, along with men, speak to the entire Church membership, twice each year at General Conference. Women teach classes on advanced doctrinal issues, not only to other women, but to men as well. They hold jobs as professors and deans at Brigham Young University, one of the largest, if not the largest, private universities in the United States.

Women are generally breeders and homemakers aren't they?
Breeders? Last I heard, it takes both a man and a woman to "breed."

According to Merlin B. Brinkerhoff and Marlene MacKie in "Religion and Gender: A Comparison of Canadian and American Student Attitudes", LDS women are more likely to graduate from college than Catholic or Protestant women, but less likely than Jewish or nonaffiliated women. For graduate education the pattern was similar--a higher percentage of LDS than Catholic or Protestant women have received graduate education. LDS women are more likely to be employed in professional occupations than Catholic or Protestant women. Twenty-three percent of LDS women are employed in professional occupations, which is similar to Jewish women and women with no religious affiliation.

Latter-day Saint men and women were leaders of the womens suffrage movement, and Utah was the second place in the world where women had the right to vote. The University of Utah (Utah being 70% Mormon) was co-educational back in 1850. The Church has always stressed the need for education among women as well as men.
 

Pah

Uber all member
I was thinking that from some of the preceding thought, it really is a shame that God is so anti-society in such a trivial matter. Or is it, as so often is the case, males are using God to convey their own ideas? Is the common Christian man so "little" in society that he would assert a primacy in family spirtiual matters to give himself some worth? The annointed male? - I hardly think so. How can a male religious system that is a fractured body of Christ really justify knowing what is right?

It is time to rid the world of this last bastion of structured male foolishness.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
I'm fairly disgusted in the talk about a complementary gender and different roles where some of RF members seem to find justification to dishonor humanity in favor of a male domination. "Sorry, my wife, you're to have babies, I'm to have a career and lead religions". It is merely the repeat of finding Biblical justification for slavery. The "maleness" of so much of religion is abhorant and goes to show there is nothing divine in religion but a man-made power trip.


Agreed....but just keep your eyes open for the new power trip. Don't think for a second that this can't shift over to women. I just saw a special on TV talking about how more men are stay at home dads and women are the worker bee. Tell me Pah, have you dealt with some of these women that are out in the work place? Where the director of engineering is a women or something like that? This doesn't bother me one bit. I actually thought to myself that it was kinda cool to have a women as a engineering director. It's just something I'm not used to seeing. I have seen this more then once and a good question to ask is a power trip in a man and women the same?
From my experience, the answer is no. The power trip of a women was much more venomous and emotionally driven. It was as if they came in with a "I have something to prove" type of approach. Although that type of approach may by justified, most of their time was spent fighting polotical wars with other women in the company. It was a catty cat world.
Like I said before, women are wired differently. For those of you who find this offensive I do not say this to be inflammatory. This is just my experience. On a technical level the women were great, but when it came to dealing with catty women, pissy engineers, not to kind mechanics, etc. This weighed heavy on many of the women.

~Victor
 

dan

Well-Known Member
The inability of our society to accept the fact that men and women are different arnd fulfill different roles is undermining the sanctity of the family and rotting our culture's foundation. The fact that so many here so vehemently back up that undermining influence is depressing.
 

Ceridwen018

Well-Known Member
The inability of our society to accept the fact that men and women are different arnd fulfill different roles is undermining the sanctity of the family and rotting our culture's foundation.
What are those different roles? Who delegated those roles?
 
Why does everyone go by words only with the 10 Commandments and other scripture and miss the underlying principles altogether? God gave man's and females equal but different roles. The ears hear and the eyes see. One is not inferior to the other. Men cant bear children and are not as strong mentally and physically (dealing w illness etc). Woman cannot be a religious leader. What Paul writes in principle again is missed. Women are submissive to the husband but the husband is submissive to the wife. Each are supposed to be more concerned about the other. Read the principles not just the words.
 
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