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Shoe is on the other foot: Prove there is not God.
- Thread starter Archer
- Start date
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
Except it doesn't say sphere, does it? It doesn't say orange, ball, sphere or anything that sounds anything like the actual earth. It says ridiculously wrong things like cornerstone, doors, womb, boundaries, bolt and door.
Honestly you sound like one of those ridiculous Muslims claiming the quran is a science book.
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
Humanistheart
Well-Known Member
I thought it wouldn't, but I realized after your false identification of mormons as christians that I could make it work for all christian branches, and that since you are not able to list a working definition of christian this entire line of reasoning is merely a red herring.
Although it's rarely said like that, they are linked. You are not a christain, and I'm guessing you never were. Perhaps I can't explain to you, a non-believer how christians link this, but they do. Put it another way, if jesus not being the messiah had nothing to do with him being god, then surely no christian would care one way or the other about the title. Yet you yourself would define christians as people who believe jesus was the christ. My family link them, my former churches linked them. You find me christians who don't care to defend jesus as the messiah for me.
After jesus died the followers that remained were jewish. The followers they cultivated were jews, made up mostly of the messianic jews. They continued to be known as jews quite some time. But, eventually, when there were more gentile followers than jews of jesus, the group stopped being known as jews. This is no different. You can't have a different theology and a different name and still claim to be the same religion.
And it was not weather I think they should have another name, you yourself said, in the previous post at best I'd proved, if accepted, that the title christian would no longer be approved. I was running with that.
I'm refering to the prophicies in the tanakh and am looking at the NT for jesus references, the ones that in no way match the messianic prophicies.If the prophicies are inaccurate then the entire title of messiah becomes meaningless. Anyone can make up anything they want regaurding it.
It's a leap to conclude son of god and god himself are one in the same.
When you assert that the prophicies can be said to be innacurate and changed on a whim and still have some validity, and that disproving christ will not affect christianity, I think there is an issue with logic there.
I already did, none could challenge it. And you still assume there's a large interpretation issue. Most of it is straightforward.You don't seem to include anything that makes any argument true, only options for being false or undetermined. It's hard to take this seriously.
I am; another reason I've repeatedly asked you or any others who feel up to it to debate my reading of the prophicies. Which you continue to refuse. And, since you are an athiest, why are you working so much to defend the christian god? Not that you can't if you wish, but what motivation could you possibly have to defend christans where they can't defend there own beleifs?
Change to the point of being new; different. See previous example of judiasm and messiants.
Miracles have been performed throughout the bible, granted with the power of god, but no one claimed they were gods. Everything you suggest has precedent to it, none has to indicated god hood. But does it matter? I don't think you fully apreciate how intricale the jesus as messiah concept is to christians.
But that is what you are saying. You yourself admitt that you don't see jesus fullfilling the messianic prophicies. Yet, you then claim that going back, after the fact, and claiming the Tanakh is inaccurate purely so they can be changed to fit jesus, is not changing the prophicies in hindsight.
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And why do you necessarily assume that just making something up would be less valid than taking the OT prophecies as fact?
Argument from ignorance is a logical fallacy.
Making the argument true is your job, not mine.
I don't give a fig about the Christian God. I do care about logic and reason, though. Bad arguments bug me.
Humanistheart
Well-Known Member
Why do I assume making something up is not condusive to fact? Is that really your question?
Then perhaps you should stop.
And I already did; but according to you my listing of yet uncountered prophicies jesus did not fullfill only makes it 'undetermined'. You included no options for truth when you discribed the option you believed applied here. That's what was hard to take seriously, you had no method of accepting truth. It's not my job to disprove my own assertions, it's yours, if you ever get around to it.
Then your own must be driving you crazy right now.
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tumbleweed41
Resident Liberal Hippie
And I stayed in the mount according to the first time(yo·vm-time) forty days(kai·ya·mim) and forty nights and the LORD hearkened unto me at that time also and the LORD would not destroy thee
Well, you found one of two instances where yo·vm refers to "time", however you will notice that is is followed by qualifiers. One of which you misquoted as yom when the original hebrew reads kai·ya·mim, a variant of yo·vm with a plural meaning of days.
However you have argued that the day in the creation story is longer than a typical Hebrew day, can you find any other instance where that occurs?
@ Humanist
Still splitting hairs
Disproving one prophecy or another does nothing for the case that there is no God. As my atheist friends have pointed out there are a lot of things in the Bible that may, by some, be interpreted differently. Scholars for and against the Bible have been picking this to death for hundreds of years! God, in the rawest form, can not be disproved! You can say you disproved Jesus and God all you want but if you think it is so why not try and have it published? Your little theory is full of holes.
There are two sets of prophecies about the Messiah, I believe I showed you that and if you like I can do it again! Many of the latter prophets of the OT speak of what is still to come, Christ was also spoken of in the first coming and his sacrifice. If you do not have an open heart you can not truly comprehend the scriptures. Some people just don't get it, that is why I have not posted in this thread in a while.
I will post again sooner or later.
Still splitting hairs
Disproving one prophecy or another does nothing for the case that there is no God. As my atheist friends have pointed out there are a lot of things in the Bible that may, by some, be interpreted differently. Scholars for and against the Bible have been picking this to death for hundreds of years! God, in the rawest form, can not be disproved! You can say you disproved Jesus and God all you want but if you think it is so why not try and have it published? Your little theory is full of holes.There are two sets of prophecies about the Messiah, I believe I showed you that and if you like I can do it again! Many of the latter prophets of the OT speak of what is still to come, Christ was also spoken of in the first coming and his sacrifice. If you do not have an open heart you can not truly comprehend the scriptures. Some people just don't get it, that is why I have not posted in this thread in a while.
I will post again sooner or later.
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johnhanks
Well-Known Member
Given that I'm responding to post #789, I'm not going to pretend that I've read the whole thread, so apologies in advance if this repeats well-trodden ground.
Of course God (whether raw, rare or well done) can't be disproved; nor does it need to be, in order not to believe in it. It is the absence of evidence for god that underpins atheism, not the existence of evidence against it.
Er, no, he wasn't. Only by pleading very broad use of metaphor and allusion can the much-quoted OT 'prophecies' be retrofitted to the itinerant faith-healer who's gone down in history as Jesus of Nazareth. Micah, for instance, declares that his prophesee will drive out the Assyrians, and become ruler in Israel. When did JC do either of those things? Now you will say, ah, but they weren't meant literally; in which case, if they are metaphors for wholly different actions or outcomes, they could as well be fitted to anyone you like. Insisting that they apply only to Jesus of Nazareth is simply special pleading.
In other words, in order to be persuaded that the bible is true you have to start by believing the bible to be true.
Amen.
DarkSun
:eltiT
Psalm 22
1My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from the words of my groaning?
2O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, and am not silent.
3Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the praise of Israel.a
4In you our fathers put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5They cried to you and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not disappointed.
6But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by men and despised by the people.
7All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads:
8“He trusts in the Lord;
let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him.”
9Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you
even at my mother’s breast.
10From birth I was cast upon you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.
11Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.
12Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13Roaring lions tearing their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted away within me.
15My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay meb in the dust of death.
16Dogs have surrounded me;
a band of evil men has encircled me,
they have piercedc my hands and my feet.
17I can count all my bones;
people stare and gloat over me.
18They divide my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing.
19But you, O Lord, be not far off;
O my Strength, come quickly to help me.
20Deliver my life from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.
21Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
saved me from the horns of the wild oxen.
22I will declare your name to my brothers;
in the congregation I will praise you.
23You who fear the Lord, praise him!
All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!
24For he has not despised or disdained
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.
25From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
before those who fear youe will I fulfill my vows.
26The poor will eat and be satisfied;
they who seek the Lord will praise him—
may your hearts live forever!
27All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the Lord,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,
28for dominion belongs to the Lord
and he rules over the nations.
29All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—
those who cannot keep themselves alive.
30Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.
31They will proclaim his righteousness
to a people yet unborn—
for he has done it.
Isaiah 29:18 In that day the deaf will hear the words of the scroll, and out of gloom and darkness the eyes of the blind will see.
Isaiah 35:5-6a (5) Then will the eyes of the blind be opened and the ears of the deaf unstopped. (6a) Then will the lame leap like a deer, and the mute tongue shout for joy.
Isaiah 42:1 "Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him and he will bring justice to the nations (Gentiles)."
Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a NEW covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jeremiah 31:32 NOT according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jeremiah 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
There is a lot more as well! As I said in my first post, please disprove God
1My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from the words of my groaning?
2O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, and am not silent.
3Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the praise of Israel.a
4In you our fathers put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5They cried to you and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not disappointed.
6But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by men and despised by the people.
7All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads:
8“He trusts in the Lord;
let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him.”
9Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you
even at my mother’s breast.
10From birth I was cast upon you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.
11Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.
12Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13Roaring lions tearing their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted away within me.
15My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay meb in the dust of death.
16Dogs have surrounded me;
a band of evil men has encircled me,
they have piercedc my hands and my feet.
17I can count all my bones;
people stare and gloat over me.
18They divide my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing.
19But you, O Lord, be not far off;
O my Strength, come quickly to help me.
20Deliver my life from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.
21Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
saved me from the horns of the wild oxen.
22I will declare your name to my brothers;
in the congregation I will praise you.
23You who fear the Lord, praise him!
All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!
24For he has not despised or disdained
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.
25From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
before those who fear youe will I fulfill my vows.
26The poor will eat and be satisfied;
they who seek the Lord will praise him—
may your hearts live forever!
27All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the Lord,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,
28for dominion belongs to the Lord
and he rules over the nations.
29All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—
those who cannot keep themselves alive.
30Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.
31They will proclaim his righteousness
to a people yet unborn—
for he has done it.
Isaiah 29:18 In that day the deaf will hear the words of the scroll, and out of gloom and darkness the eyes of the blind will see.
Isaiah 35:5-6a (5) Then will the eyes of the blind be opened and the ears of the deaf unstopped. (6a) Then will the lame leap like a deer, and the mute tongue shout for joy.
Isaiah 42:1 "Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him and he will bring justice to the nations (Gentiles)."
Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a NEW covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jeremiah 31:32 NOT according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jeremiah 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
There is a lot more as well! As I said in my first post, please disprove God
DarkSun
:eltiT
Psalm 22
1My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from the words of my groaning?
2O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, and am not silent.
3Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the praise of Israel.a
4In you our fathers put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5They cried to you and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not disappointed.
6But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by men and despised by the people.
7All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads:
8He trusts in the Lord;
let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him.
9Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you
even at my mothers breast.
10From birth I was cast upon you;
from my mothers womb you have been my God.
11Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.
12Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13Roaring lions tearing their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted away within me.
15My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay meb in the dust of death.
16Dogs have surrounded me;
a band of evil men has encircled me,
they have piercedc my hands and my feet.
17I can count all my bones;
people stare and gloat over me.
18They divide my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing.
19But you, O Lord, be not far off;
O my Strength, come quickly to help me.
20Deliver my life from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.
21Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
saved me from the horns of the wild oxen.
22I will declare your name to my brothers;
in the congregation I will praise you.
23You who fear the Lord, praise him!
All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!
24For he has not despised or disdained
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.
25From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
before those who fear youe will I fulfill my vows.
26The poor will eat and be satisfied;
they who seek the Lord will praise him
may your hearts live forever!
27All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the Lord,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,
28for dominion belongs to the Lord
and he rules over the nations.
29All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him
those who cannot keep themselves alive.
30Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.
31They will proclaim his righteousness
to a people yet unborn
for he has done it.
Isaiah 29:18 In that day the deaf will hear the words of the scroll, and out of gloom and darkness the eyes of the blind will see.
Isaiah 35:5-6a (5) Then will the eyes of the blind be opened and the ears of the deaf unstopped. (6a) Then will the lame leap like a deer, and the mute tongue shout for joy.
Isaiah 42:1 "Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him and he will bring justice to the nations (Gentiles)."
Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a NEW covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jeremiah 31:32 NOT according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jeremiah 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
There is a lot more as well! As I said in my first post, please disprove God
Archer, those words are very moving. I got shivers reading them.
But you are not listening to what has been said to you.
Apparently, most atheists do not make the claim: "God does not exist".
They reject the claim: "God exists".
There is a difference.
This was in response to the claims about prophecies. Funny thing is if they reject it then there is something there to reject
Better to claim he does not exist.Must point out that the something you speak of is the concept of one or more deities, not the deity itselfThis was in response to the claims about prophecies. Funny thing is if they reject it then there is something there to reject
.Must point out that the something you speak of is the concept of one or more deities, not the deity itself
I reject all others
I will not offend people by saying they have a false God. If they do? So be it.
No, I'm asking why you've apparently assumed that the OT prophecies couldn't have been just made up.
You don't know what the argument from ignorance fallacy is, do you?
Yes, because you haven't demonstrated them to be true. Google "Russell's Teapot" if you're interested to learn why it's a bad tactic to argue that an assertion is true as long as it can't be proven false.
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
Why do you keep posting this? It has nothing to do with our discussion. Are you trying to twist this to read it as some kind of prophecy? If so, of what? I thought you opposed "interpretation." If you read this psalm as a prophecy of Jesus, you're going much further than mere interpretation; you're making stuff up.
What on earth is your point. I'll put it this way: If this is the closest you can come to OT prophecies of Jesus, you've definitively proved that there are none. Good job.
God in general, or your God? I have disproved the existence of any God that grants prayers. Does your God grant prayers? If so, He doesn't exist.There is a lot more as well! As I said in my first post, please disprove God
What else are the qualities of your God?
As I have said before you have disproved nothing, if you did you would be famous and all over the TV, papers Churches would be turned into who knows what. Full of holes.