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I believe in Creation ...and Evolution

Uncertaindrummer

Active Member
I think the biggest problem with the creationist/evolution argument at the moment is:

Christians (such as myself) can easily believe the Bible did not literally mean seven days. That should not be a problem. The only people who believe this so adamantly are usually Protestants and there are definitely other places you take the Bible as unliteral, even when it is quite "obvious" to some that it should be taken literal (i.e. John 6). So to argue that the Bible must be literal here is rather unfounded. And even if it is literal, who says our day is the same as a day was back then? We already know that according to the Bible men lived hundreds of years. They easily could have thought differently of timekeeping--and probably did. There is definitely enough ambiguity and uncertainty to permit a different interpretation.

And since there is no way for you to prove that the Bible is literal or symbolic, science seems like a good way to help answer the question. And science clearly--as far as I can see, at least--is in support of the Earth being old. Did we evolve from monkeys? Who can say. I personally believe Humans did not evolve, although maybe we did slightly over the past thousands of years (stronger, taller, maybe?). Other animals very well might have. But that is not the issue. You are pitting the Bible against science and there is no need. Why can't you accept the fact that the Earth is old? Would that ruin your Faith? If so, fine. Don't believe it, I certainly have no problem with that. But if it would not ruin your faith, almost all scientific evidence points the way of the universe being created a long time ago. I mean, how do stars millions of light years away get their light here? It just makes sense that the Earth is old, without even examining any deep scientific evidence.

Now I am not saying you are obligated to believe this but certainly you can't claim that it is absolutely imperative for Christians to believe in a literal 6 day, 144 hour, 8640 minute, 518400 second creation. I see no problem in believing otherwise and I have been a Christian all my life.
 

greatcalgarian

Well-Known Member
Why you have to be careful in choosing materials (be it from the Catholic [I believe Catholic downplay the Ostrich, as the passage was considered not inspired], the Watchtower, the seven day, methodist etc) for your bible study:

If you make all the careful scientific study on Ostrich behavior, you should arrive at the conclusion that female Ostrich cannot be painted with the notion of a stupid, uncaring, coward, and good for nothing mother:mad: . There is a very simple logical reason to refute the above if you agreed with the principle of survival of the fittest or simply evolution. Imaging if mother Ostrich posseses all the characteristic as asscribed in Job and others, we will not be able to see any Ostrich left today.:woohoo:

So if that assumption of Ostrich mother characteristic is wrong, we cannot proceed to study any other teachning as derived from that assumption
http://www.livingbiblestudies.org/study/JT60/004.html
for example we have to take with a grain of salt the above material by Dr. Joe TempleLesson 4 in the series
Birds of the Bible Study
 

Uncertaindrummer

Active Member
greatcalgarian said:
Why you have to be careful in choosing materials (be it from the Catholic [I believe Catholic downplay the Ostrich, as the passage was considered not inspired], the Watchtower, the seven day, methodist etc) for your bible study:

If you make all the careful scientific study on Ostrich behavior, you should arrive at the conclusion that female Ostrich cannot be painted with the notion of a stupid, uncaring, coward, and good for nothing mother:mad: . There is a very simple logical reason to refute the above if you agreed with the principle of survival of the fittest or simply evolution. Imaging if mother Ostrich posseses all the characteristic as asscribed in Job and others, we will not be able to see any Ostrich left today.:woohoo:

So if that assumption of Ostrich mother characteristic is wrong, we cannot proceed to study any other teachning as derived from that assumption
http://www.livingbiblestudies.org/study/JT60/004.html
for example we have to take with a grain of salt the above material by Dr. Joe TempleLesson 4 in the series
Birds of the Bible Study
I can't say I have read much of the ostrich discussion in this thread but I do know one thing; anything which pits the Bible against science because of an ostrich seems immediately suspect to me...
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
Common names for birds (as well as other animals) can be applied to several different specie. Football in one society means "American Style", yet in another society it means soccer. That's within a contemporary framework. I know of three types of birds that are referred to as cormorants. The Anhinga, the common cormorant, and the common coot are ALL referred to as cormorants by various people. Again, I don't think we have any native speakers from back then, so our attempts to nail this puppy down are pretty futile.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
er... are you perhaps sugesting that they were calling some other bird an Ostrich?
It is a very distinct and unique bird for the area... you have to go to either S.America or Austrailia to find anything elce like it, eaven remotely.

At least the Anhinga looks remotely like a Comerant. ;)
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Painted Wolf, you absolutely amaze me with your knowlege; I'd take my hat off to you if I was wearing one !:)
 

Passerbye

Member
greatcalgarian said:
Wikipedia is just a very convenient source of encyclopediac information, I believe 99% accurate . If you do not believe in that, you have to go to the University or Library and look up all research done on Ostrich. If you are lazy to do that, then look at this web
I am not saying that Wikipedia is not a good encyclopedia. I am saying that it doesn’t have all the behavior information of the ostrich.


wikipedia said:
The females will lay their fertilized eggs in a single communal nest, a simple pit scraped in the ground and about 30–60 cm deep. Ostrich eggs can weigh 1.3 kg and are the largest of all eggs, though they are actually the smallest relative to the size of the bird. The nest may contain 15–60 eggs. The eggs are incubated by the females by day and by the male by night, making use of the different colors of the two sexes to escape detection. The young hatch after some 35–45 days. Typically, the male will tend to the hatchlings.
Yet again, the male is doing the job of caring for the young. Even the sea monster females (whales) breast-feed their young. These females seem to be hardened against their young.


greatcalgarian said:
There are so many sources, and why do we want to believe just a single source written in a book sometime is 400BC?
Perhaps nomad during that period just made their observation at night, and find that the male was doing the job, so they jumped to the conclusion that female ostrich is hardened against the young?
Hey, I am not saying I just want to believe the Bible. I am saying that, while they post a good amount of information, encyclopedias don’t tend to give all of the information. And some of their behavior does match the description in the Bible. I see it as they do exactly what the Bible says they do, you see it as the Bible calling them bad parents.


greatcalgarian said:
So what's at issue? Our Skeptic maintains that these passages perpetuate a legendary view of the ostrich as a bad parent. He says:
The links you posted say that the female does leave it’s eggs in the sand. However, what I noticed in that last article is that the female never went to far from them. She didn’t want even another of the mothers to come near them. However, after the eggs hatch the mother has no role that I can see. The problem that I saw was that the mother was well aware of being watched by someone. I wonder if that made the mother keep a closer watch on her eggs. Also, these are ostriches that have been re-introduced into a habitat. They may grow up with more knowledge of humans and thus be more careful with their eggs. My speculation on this can go on and on. What I do notice is that you seem to think that the people of those days were stupid. Why do you think this?


Uncertaindrummer said:
Christians (such as myself) can easily believe the Bible did not literally mean seven days. That should not be a problem. The only people who believe this so adamantly are usually Protestants and there are definitely other places you take the Bible as unliteral, even when it is quite "obvious" to some that it should be taken literal (i.e. John 6). So to argue that the Bible must be literal here is rather unfounded. And even if it is literal, who says our day is the same as a day was back then? We already know that according to the Bible men lived hundreds of years. They easily could have thought differently of timekeeping--and probably did. There is definitely enough ambiguity and uncertainty to permit a different interpretation.
First of all, please explain why taking a non-literal view of Genesis is anything other than trying to cope with parts of current science that have not even been proven. Is there anything in the Bible that says anything about taking it non-literally?
Secondly, God made the days for us to base our lives upon. Why would he change them? God says that everything in the creation he spoke of (plants, animals, the earth, stars, sun, moon, and so on) was good. If they were good then there would be no death for any of them until at least after the 6th day.
Thirdly, time is based upon the sun, and the moon; morning and evening. The days would be little, if any, different from what they are now.
Forth, where is the ambiguity?


And since there is no way for you to prove that the Bible is literal or symbolic, science seems like a good way to help answer the question. And science clearly--as far as I can see, at least--is in support of the Earth being old. Did we evolve from monkeys? Who can say. I personally believe Humans did not evolve, although maybe we did slightly over the past thousands of years (stronger, taller, maybe?). Other animals very well might have. But that is not the issue. You are pitting the Bible against science and there is no need. Why can't you accept the fact that the Earth is old? Would that ruin your Faith? If so, fine. Don't believe it, I certainly have no problem with that. But if it would not ruin your faith, almost all scientific evidence points the way of the universe being created a long time ago. I mean, how do stars millions of light years away get their light here? It just makes sense that the Earth is old, without even examining any deep scientific evidence.
There is the language, which shows whether it was literal or symbolic. If it was symbolic then you would expect that someone who can read the language properly could tell you if it was symbolic or not. As it is all the credible translators that I know of say that it is literal. The data that shows evolution can also be interpreted for a young earth. You have probably been looking at opinions and speculation, not the data; which is usually presented as truth because the people who come up with the theories are people who should know what they are talking about. I am not saying that they don’t but what I am saying is that if you see the plain data they use to push out a hypothesis from their own ideas of the data you would see that the data could still be interpreted in other ways. The fact still remains that the Bible says that land animals came after birds and evolution says that birds came after land animals. That is a big difference, even if you see it as symbolism. If that is the way it is then one of them is a lie, thus the two can’t mix.

 

Passerbye

Member
greatcalgarian said:
If you make all the careful scientific study on Ostrich behavior, you should arrive at the conclusion that female Ostrich cannot be painted with the notion of a stupid, uncaring, coward, and good for nothing mother . There is a very simple logical reason to refute the above if you agreed with the principle of survival of the fittest or simply evolution. Imaging if mother Ostrich posseses all the characteristic as asscribed in Job and others, we will not be able to see any Ostrich left today.
I posted a link to an article on this earlier and I think I should post it here instead so that we can see what the real problem is.
http://www.tektonics.org/lp/ostrich.html said:
Regular writer "C." gave us another animal-themed question, and this time I found out that it had its ultimate source, along with other past animal questions, in a work of a known Skeptic from a back issue of a popular Skeptical newsletter. At any rate, the question this time has to do with two passages:
Job 39:13-17 Gavest thou the goodly wings unto the peacocks? or wings and feathers unto the ostrich? Which leaveth her eggs in the earth, and warmeth them in dust, And forgetteth that the foot may crush them, or that the wild beast may break them. She is hardened against her young ones, as though they were not hers: her labour is in vain without fear; Because God hath deprived her of wisdom, neither hath he imparted to her understanding.
Lam. 4:3 Even the sea monsters draw out the breast, they give suck to their young ones: the daughter of my people is become cruel, like the ostriches in the wilderness.
So what's at issue? Our Skeptic maintains that these passages perpetuate a legendary view of the ostrich as a bad parent. He says:
Reflected in this passage is a primitive, but incorrect, belief that the ostrich is a stupid bird that lays its eggs on the ground, leaves them to be hatched by the heat of the sand, and then treats her young harshly after they have hatched...Both Encyclopedia Americana and Britannica, as well as Grzimek's [sic] (vol 7, pp. 91-95), describe ostriches as very caring parents. The female lays her eggs on the ground, but so do many other species of birds. The eggs are not abandoned to the heat of the sand, but in the female's absence, the male incubates the nest. When the young hatch, they are given watchful care by their mother. As a biological creature, the ostrich has survived for thousands of years, so obviously it is a successful procreator. Its labor is not in vain, as the passage above incorrectly declares.
Our Skeptic has done better on this one than he did on the ants and the other animals, but as usual he's simply listening to liberal commentators (like the NASB's) and utilizing general-use sources (encyclopedias) and taking them at their word as "all there is to say" (when they certainly don't go into the sort of detail needed; even the respected Grzimak's, as noted, only has four pages on the critter). Let's take a closer look at what these passages say, starting with Job. (As a side note, Marvin Pope's commentary on Job [310] states that this section of Job is not in the LXX, and may not have been in the original text; but we will assume for the sake of argument that it was)
Which leaveth her eggs in the earth, and warmeth them in dust
Some translations render the word "leaveth" in terms of a forsaking, and it seems that our man's NASB source goes along with this. But the word here, 'azab, though it can carry that meaning, acquires that meaning based on context -- it carries the meaning of leaving behind, and no one would argue that the ostrich does not leave or place its eggs on the ground and leave them now and then (without "abandoning" them). In fact, we'll see in a moment that this is a good description of their behavior, and indeed, even "forsaking" fits a certain behavior they have.
And forgetteth that the foot may crush them, or that the wild beast may break them.
Insofar as laying eggs on the ground is a risky procedure, none of this is untrue -- and it hardly counts as malicious or bad parenting. But there is actually more to this, and we will see that in a moment. Here are the two key passages:
She is hardened against her young ones, as though they were not hers: her labour is in vain without fear; Because God hath deprived her of wisdom, neither hath he imparted to her understanding.
Even the sea monsters draw out the breast, they give suck to their young ones: the daughter of my people is become cruel, like the ostriches in the wilderness.
Our Skeptic takes this to be referring to a universal ostrich-ish practice, but had he looked further than the encyclopedias, he would have found that there are indeed times when the ostrich will act this way. Provan's commentary on Lamentations [112], using Cramp's Handbook of the Birds of Europe, the Middle East, and North Africa as a source, notes:
Under certain environmental conditions...the family group may break up when chicks are a few weeks old, the adults renewing sexual activity and becoming highly aggressive towards all juveniles. Chicks fledged in small numbers outside the breeding season are frequently treated as outcasts and live solitarily.
And from here, Eaton's Bible Dictionary reports another behavior:
The allusion here is to the habit of the ostrich with reference to its eggs, which is thus described: "The outer layer of eggs is generally so ill covered that they are destroyed in quantities by jackals, wild-cats, etc., and that the natives carry them away, only taking care not to leave the marks of their footsteps, since, when the ostrich comes and finds that her nest is discovered, she crushes the whole brood, and builds a nest elsewhere."
And here's something from another site:
Ostriches live in family groups consisting of one cock and several hens. During breeding season, the male will mate with the dominant female and one to four other hens. Each hen lays between two and eleven creamy white eggs in a communal nest which can be nearly 10 ft (3 m) across and is simply a hollow in the ground formed by scraping and body weight. When egg laying is complete there are usually ten to forty or more eggs in the nest; the most ever recorded was seventy-eight. Only about twenty can be incubated, however, so the dominant hen will reject any surplus eggs by pushing them out of the nest. She always ensures, however, that her own eggs remain.
Note that what we have here is a perfect example of the ostrich leaving -- indeed, forsaking -- the eggs "belonging" to her as dominant hen of the communal group, to the dust out where they can be trod upon. Sounds pretty harsh! But even more so -- the site goes on:
The cocks and the hens take it in turns to incubate the eggs; the hens sit on them during the day and the cocks at night. This shift system lasts for an average of forty-two days until the eggs hatch. When the chicks emerge into the world, it is the male who cares for them.
So it seems momma is "hardened" against her young ones after all -- Dad is the one who does the job of parenting after hatching!
The behavior with eggs is even further confirmed by Brian C. R. Bertram's The Ostrich Communal Nesting System (1992). Among the relevant points offered by Bertram:
· Ostriches definitely "leave" their nests -- in a study of 57 nests, Bertram found that "most were destroyed by predators after surviving for different and unpredictable periods of time." [25] As a result, "The great majority of ostrich nests did not produce any chicks, mainly because of predation." [71] Only 5 out of 57 had successful hatchings. [77]
· The secondary female ostriches -- what Bertram calls "minor hens" -- laid eggs in the nest, but thereafter "took no part in attending or guarding it, nor later in incubating it." [57] This sounds like "forsaking" and "cruel" behavior, subjectively speaking, to me!
· Bertram confirms the behavior of shoving the eggs of minor hens out of the nest as needed for space; only 20 eggs at most could be covered. This happened "at most incubating nests" [65]. The eggs shoved out "eventually rotted or were destroyed." [66]
· The male spends 71% of the incubating time on the nest; the major hen, 29%; the minor hens, as noted above, none.
So let's review:
Which leaveth her eggs in the earth -- this would be a perfect description of what is done to the outer ring of "forsaken" eggs, which are the communal property of the group under the discretion of the major hen.
and warmeth them in dust -- Note that the word "warmeth" here is not term-specific for incubation -- it simply means "heats" (Ex. 16:21 And they gathered it every morning, every man according to his eating: and when the sun waxed hot (chamam), it melted.) Ostrich incubation actually is for the purpose of cooling the eggs, not warming them. This again describes the outer ring of forsaken eggs.
And forgetteth that the foot may crush them, or that the wild beast may break them. The word "foregetteth" indicates an obliviousness or apathy -- we have seen that the major hen purposely pushes these eggs out and doesn't care about what happens to them; she is preserving her own eggs!
She is hardened against her young ones, as though they were not hers: her labour is in vain without fear. We have seen how this applies to the chicks.
The daughter of my people is become cruel, like the ostriches in the wilderness. Same here; we have enough data for a subjective judgment of this sort.
So the behaviors described would suit our passages. As for our Skeptic, it seems his head is in the sand of simple sources yet again...and as C. says, you know what part is sticking up when that happens!
Please tell me what the problem is.
 

Passerbye

Member
Uncertaindrummer said:
I can't say I have read much of the ostrich discussion in this thread but I do know one thing; anything which pits the Bible against science because of an ostrich seems immediately suspect to me...
To quote something that I can’t remember the source of:
“It is, is what it is, is what it is.”
(If someone remembers where this came from please tell me. Thank you!)


NetDoc said:
Common names for birds (as well as other animals) can be applied to several different specie. Football in one society means "American Style", yet in another society it means soccer. That's within a contemporary framework. I know of three types of birds that are referred to as cormorants. The Anhinga, the common cormorant, and the common coot are ALL referred to as cormorants by various people. Again, I don't think we have any native speakers from back then, so our attempts to nail this puppy down are pretty futile.
Like painted wolf said, the ostrich is a pretty distinct creature. It would be a little bit hard to confuse it with something else. Not impossible, just hard.
 

Uncertaindrummer

Active Member
Passerbye said:
First of all, please explain why taking a non-literal view of Genesis is anything other than trying to cope with parts of current science that have not even been proven. Is there anything in the Bible that says anything about taking it non-literally?


Is there anything in the Bible which says we should take it literally? What about Jesus telling us that to follow Him we must hate our family? Is that literal? No. You certainly would not believe John 6 is literal. Why should I believe Genesis 1 is literal when science clearly contradicts that view.

Secondly, God made the days for us to base our lives upon. Why would he change them?
He did? Where does it say THAT in the Bible?


Thirdly, time is based upon the sun, and the moon; morning and evening. The days would be little, if any, different from what they are now.
You are right, our sense of time IS based on the sun. Was there a sun on the first "day"? Umm... no.



There is the language, which shows whether it was literal or symbolic.


Again, your interpretation could be entirely differernt from someone else's.

If it was symbolic then you would expect that someone who can read the language properly could tell you if it was symbolic or not.


And who can read the language properly? Apparently I am not qualified, nor the many learned Bishops who devote their lives to studying religious issues, and yet still say we are free to believe one way or the other. No, only protestant ministers msut be able to interpret it properly, and even then, only the conservative ones? Is that what you are saying?

As it is all the credible translators that I know of say that it is literal.


I could certainly find some who didn't, but I bet they would not be held as "credible".

The data that shows evolution can also be interpreted for a young earth.


Possibly. I am not denying any other interpretatinos might be correct. You are.

You have probably been looking at opinions and speculation


That right THERE is speculation, groundless at that.

which is usually presented as truth because the people who come up with the theories are people who should know what they are talking about. I am not saying that they don’t but what I am saying is that if you see the plain data they use to push out a hypothesis from their own ideas of the data you would see that the data could still be interpreted in other ways.


But you are saying they don't know what they are talking about. TONS of scientists could tell you the Earth is old, and you have in a few blanket statements dismissed them. I mean, you still haven't even dealt with such a simple question as how did the stars light get here so fast.

The fact still remains that the Bible says that land animals came after birds and evolution says that birds came after land animals.


Ascribing such a sense of time to God, who is outside of time, is like using an ant's liftime to describe ours. It is absurd.

That is a big difference, even if you see it as symbolism. If that is the way it is then one of them is a lie, thus the two can’t mix.


No, it isn't. The following three statements would also be seen as incompatible by many yet you believe them:

The Father is God.

The Son is God.

There is only one God.

So why should I throw something out the window just because I can't fully grasp it? That would be tantamount to saying "If I can't understand it, to heck with it", and that is just human arrogance.
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
PW,

I am certain they were calling something OTHER than an "osterich"... that's a translation from a DEAD language. That we translate it into osterich is what I question.
 
just wondering, why would an adaptive behavioral pattern such as the described be considered so negatively? It strikes me that many organisms, from penguins to spiders to humans, behave in ways that could be twisted into negligence if the writer intended to make a related point, as in this case. The behavior seems to resemble an osterich, though, doesn't it? However, simply because a group of people perceives the behavior of an organism incorrectly doesn't change the point of the passage, which has little to do with the organism. If the Bible was really written by god, though, then he would be perceiving his own creation as being negligent, which would be strange. More evidence to support the opinion of the reference being totally irrelevant. ^^

I'm sure...somewhere...somehow...an osterich has ....something to do with theistic evolution...just maybe..
 

greatcalgarian

Well-Known Member
Passerbye said:
I posted a link to an article on this earlier and I think I should post it here instead so that we can see what the real problem is.
Please tell me what the problem is.
Tektonics is a well known apologetic site that used to retract many of the previous posting and stands, and when debating with the atheist, always did not have the ethic of providing link to the counter arguement to reply.:banghead3

If you are interested, I can send you the many atheist web link that debated with tektonics.

If you have read all the other links I provided, you should find all the answers to what is claimed in tektonics web. I have read through the entire tektonics before posting all those ostrich talk:D
 

greatcalgarian

Well-Known Member
Passerbye said:
I am not saying that Wikipedia is not a good encyclopedia. I am saying that it doesn’t have all the behavior information of the ostrich.

What I do notice is that you seem to think that the people of those days were stupid. Why do you think this?
Did I ? Did I? Where in my post? Where in my post?

People of those days are not as lucky as us today where we have enjoyed the fruits of 6000 years of evolution from the primitive hunter to agriculture to industrial revolution and to the current computer age and nanotechnology in the near future. What I may have said or implied is that people during those days did not have the opportunity to study Ostrich as widely and as scientifically as people of present day.

If I give you any impression that I thought people during those day are stupid, I must apologize to you for giving you that impression:rolleyes:

Anyway, my point is that, Apologetic evangelists tend to adopt the attitude that everything writtien in the bible (even the current translated version) are word inspired by God, and cannot contain any errant protraying. Hence the Ostrich has become very famous, and has often being used as a parable or teaching in church preaching. What I am trying to say is that basically there are some observation by people during that time which is valid, but the interpretation is way way wrong.

If you look over all the Christian web sites that support the idea of Ostrich female being hardened, you will find that there are tons of them, but they end up referring to the same source, and most of the time that source is quoting from some study out of context:149: .

I suggest you do a google search of "bible ostrich" and see what I mean.
 

Pah

Uber all member
greatcalgarian said:
Tektonics is a well known apologetic site that used to retract many of the previous posting and stands, and when debating with the atheist, always did not have the ethic of providing link to the counter arguement to reply.:banghead3

If you are interested, I can send you the many atheist web link that debated with tektonics.

If you have read all the other links I provided, you should find all the answers to what is claimed in tektonics web. I have read through the entire tektonics before posting all those ostrich talk:D
I knew Holding at TWeb - his best argument was sarcastic attack. It's Farrell Till that does most of the debating with him now

Now back to the topic of the thread
 

greatcalgarian

Well-Known Member
Pah said:
I knew Holding at TWeb - his best argument was sarcastic attack. It's Farrell Till that does most of the debating with him now

Now back to the topic of the thread
I posted a link on ostrich in #298 giving the exact tektonics page that passerby posted in total his reply and ask me to response to it, obviously he did not check the link I provided or read the posting? You have to teach me how to reply to that without repeating myself.:help: . It will be a waste of the RF space for people to scroll through long long reply :D
 

Ceridwen018

Well-Known Member
Passerbye,

Sorry it's taken me so long to reply--my internet connection has been being flighty at best!

Yes, and you have not proven my literal interpretation wrong (not counting the earth-sun thing that we have not even discussed yet.)
By "Earth-Sun thing" are you referring to the idea of a geocentric universe that is presented by the Bible? If so, then a literal interpretation of that passage would be disproven by the widely observed scientific evidence suggesting the contrary.

Likewise, evidence for evolution and a lack of evidence to back up creationism disproves your literal interpretation of the creationist stories found in the Bible.

What about logic language… logic… data… wisdom… you know, those rules. They dictate interpretation. Hypotheses don’t count, they are just ideas.
I didn't realize that there was a specific logical pattern that one must follow when interpreting the Bible--this is great news. I suggest that you start a new thread explaining it to everyone so that all of the problems encountered due to incorrect and clashing interpretations will be solved.

Do you see what I'm getting at here? If translating the Bible is so black-and-white and logical, then why does everyone and their Aunt Mildred have a different idea about what God meant by this or that? As I said before, there are no rules.

Yes, he could have made time pass like that but… he didn’t say he did.
God neglected to address many things. In this situation, those who want to believe in evolution will say, "He didn't say he did....but he didn't say he didn't either! So, I believe it!" People who don't want to believe in evolution will follow your path. Basically, its a moot point.

Please show me the evidence that says we must insert such large amounts of years in there.
bryce_canyon_00.jpg


I have seen nothing but interpretations of data that say that the earth is that old.
Yes, that's called "empirical evidence."

Just wondering, but can you supply any sort of evidence that suggests the Earth is not billions of years old? If not, I'll stick with my measly "interpretations of data" and hope you realize that your lack of evidence is a serious scientific problem.
Evolutionists have ideas backing them up and so do creationists.
By all means, please present them. As I stated to Emu, I have searched high and low for such "ideas" and have come up emptyhanded.

When it comes to blind faith make sure you’re not following blind guides.
Which guide would that be?
 

Passerbye

Member
Uncertaindrummer said:
Is there anything in the Bible which says we should take it literally? What about Jesus telling us that to follow Him we must hate our family? Is that literal? No. You certainly would not believe John 6 is literal. Why should I believe Genesis 1 is literal when science clearly contradicts that view.
How does science contradict that view? Evolution does (gonna probably get yelled at for that statement) but that is not proven yet (what I mean by proven is as far as something of the past can be proven).

Uncertaindrummer said:
He did? Where does it say THAT in the Bible?
Genesis 1:14 NIV

Uncertaindrummer said:
You are right, our sense of time IS based on the sun. Was there a sun on the first "day"? Umm... no.
Do you base your watch on time or time on your watch. He set the lights in the sky to serve as markers for time, he didn’t put the lights in the sky to serve as things to base time off of.

Uncertaindrummer said:
You are right, our sense of time IS based on the sun. Was there a sun on the first "day"? Umm... no.
If God didn’t put the sun in the sky we wouldn’t really know what a day was. Same with the stars making off the seasons

Uncertaindrummer said:
Again, your interpretation could be entirely differernt from someone else's.
I should probably learn to read it myself before saying anything more about the interpretations; however, I know a lot of things are based on reading things in ways they shouldn’t be read such as Jesus calling his followers sheep and taking it in the context that it would be in English society these days.

Uncertaindrummer said:
Possibly. I am not denying any other interpretatinos might be correct. You are.
I deny things could be correct because of what I know of them. I know things about the interpretation of the word day in context to Genesis 1 so I see no way things that go against it could have happened.

Uncertaindrummer said:
That right THERE is speculation, groundless at that.
That is why I said probably rather than certainly. Speculation is marked with an indefinite in a sentence. I know the data shows that rocks have certain chemicals in them and the speculation that goes from there has a large amount of unknowns. I know things are buried certain ways and the speculation from there also has a lot of unknowns. I start with what I know and move to what I don’t know. Scientists usually start that way as far as I know; however, there is a lot of speculation involved in saying that the earth is 4.7 billion years old. People that listen to the speculation and not just the data tend to come up believing in evolution without grounds for it, same with creation.

Uncertaindrummer said:
But you are saying they don't know what they are talking about. TONS of scientists could tell you the Earth is old, and you have in a few blanket statements dismissed them. I mean, you still haven't even dealt with such a simple question as how did the stars light get here so fast.
If you would like to hear my theories on that I will present them; however, they are just speculation.
One way is that God says that he was hovering over the waters (on earth.) Now, it says that he put the stars in the sky, which are far away from us now. What if… he was on earth and threw the stars into their proper positions. This would cause the light to trail behind them and still reach us constantly. This would account for the light reaching us. Basically God threw the stars, from earth, into the sky. Other speculations have been made but this is my personal one. It probably has loads of kinks in it that would need to be worked out. If anyone would like to assist in that I would greatly appreciate it.

Uncertaindrummer said:
Ascribing such a sense of time to God, who is outside of time, is like using an ant's liftime to describe ours. It is absurd.
So you are saying that God made the fish and then the birds, and then went back in time to after he made the fish but before he made the birds and made the land animals. !WOW!... that’s kind of… odd… uuummm…okay… let’s move on.

Uncertaindrummer said:
No, it isn't. The following three statements would also be seen as incompatible by many yet you believe them:

The Father is God.

The Son is God.

There is only one God.

So why should I throw something out the window just because I can't fully grasp it? That would be tantamount to saying "If I can't understand it, to heck with it", and that is just human arrogance.
The mind is you… your body is you… your soul is you.
Also… Father is in the Son… the Spirit is in the Son… the Son is in Them as well… If you are in Christ and Christ is in you… the Spirit is in you and you are in the Spirit… you are in the Father and the Father is in you… then that expands the Trinity a bit. Expand that with all the people that have Christ and the Father and the Spirit and you have a large Family. Try seeing it this way: you are in your family and your family is in you when you all act together as one. It confuses you because of the language used.

NetDoc said:
I am certain they were calling something OTHER than an "osterich"... that's a translation from a DEAD language. That we translate it into osterich is what I question.
There is a chance of that. Also, behavior patterns of animals changes over time so even if the definition that is given in the Bible does not match the current life of the ostrich it may still have matched the way of the ostrich in the time of the writing of the verses that the comments were given in.

Hirohito18200 said:
just wondering, why would an adaptive behavioral pattern such as the described be considered so negatively? It strikes me that many organisms, from penguins to spiders to humans, behave in ways that could be twisted into negligence if the writer intended to make a related point, as in this case. The behavior seems to resemble an osterich, though, doesn't it? However, simply because a group of people perceives the behavior of an organism incorrectly doesn't change the point of the passage, which has little to do with the organism. If the Bible was really written by god, though, then he would be perceiving his own creation as being negligent, which would be strange. More evidence to support the opinion of the reference being totally irrelevant. ^^
He creates things the way he does. Just to let you know, wisdom is given individually to things. Just because wisdom is given to one person does not mean that it is given to all people. Just because in the time of Job the ostrich was given no wisdom does not mean that God didn’t choose to give them more wisdom now. Wisdom is given based on the situations the thing is in. This does not mean that God was being negligent, it simply could mean that God chose not to give the ostriches of that time any wisdom so that he could make a reference to them when speaking to Job.

Hirohito18200 said:
I'm sure...somewhere...somehow...an osterich has ....something to do with theistic evolution...just maybe..
True, maybe we should try to stay more on topic.
 

Passerbye

Member
greatcalgarian said:
Tektonics is a well known apologetic site that used to retract many of the previous posting and stands, and when debating with the atheist, always did not have the ethic of providing link to the counter arguement to reply.

If you are interested, I can send you the many atheist web link that debated with tektonics.

If you have read all the other links I provided, you should find all the answers to what is claimed in tektonics web. I have read through the entire tektonics before posting all those ostrich talk
I would like that, but I may not get to reading them all for a while. I spend to much time on the computer as it is. Any more and I’ll make the people in my house even more aggravated with my computer usage than they already are, which I don’t want to do.

greatcalgarian said:
Did I ? Did I? Where in my post? Where in my post?
Sorry, I think I interpreted comments in post 297 the wrong way. My bad. Sorry about that.

greatcalgarian said:
People of those days are not as lucky as us today where we have enjoyed the fruits of 6000 years of evolution from the primitive hunter to agriculture to industrial revolution and to the current computer age and nanotechnology in the near future. What I may have said or implied is that people during those days did not have the opportunity to study Ostrich as widely and as scientifically as people of present day.

If I give you any impression that I thought people during those day are stupid, I must apologize to you for giving you that impression

Anyway, my point is that, Apologetic evangelists tend to adopt the attitude that everything writtien in the bible (even the current translated version) are word inspired by God, and cannot contain any errant protraying. Hence the Ostrich has become very famous, and has often being used as a parable or teaching in church preaching. What I am trying to say is that basically there are some observation by people during that time which is valid, but the interpretation is way way wrong.

If you look over all the Christian web sites that support the idea of Ostrich female being hardened, you will find that there are tons of them, but they end up referring to the same source, and most of the time that source is quoting from some study out of context.

I suggest you do a google search of "bible ostrich" and see what I mean.
I will try that, thank you.

greatcalgarian said:
I posted a link on ostrich in #298 giving the exact tektonics page that passerby posted in total his reply and ask me to response to it, obviously he did not check the link I provided or read the posting? You have to teach me how to reply to that without repeating myself. . It will be a waste of the RF space for people to scroll through long long reply
Sorry about that.

Ceridwen018 said:
By "Earth-Sun thing" are you referring to the idea of a geocentric universe that is presented by the Bible? If so, then a literal interpretation of that passage would be disproven by the widely observed scientific evidence suggesting the contrary.

Likewise, evidence for evolution and a lack of evidence to back up creationism disproves your literal interpretation of the creationist stories found in the Bible.
The things that have been quoted are poetry saying how great God is by saying, the earth cannot be moved. I see it as the orbit the earth has been set in; however there are many ways of interpreting this. I will leave it at that since I don’t know enough about the culture back then to make any real speculations about it.

Ceridwen018 said:
I didn't realize that there was a specific logical pattern that one must follow when interpreting the Bible--this is great news. I suggest that you start a new thread explaining it to everyone so that all of the problems encountered due to incorrect and clashing interpretations will be solved.

Do you see what I'm getting at here? If translating the Bible is so black-and-white and logical, then why does everyone and their Aunt Mildred have a different idea about what God meant by this or that? As I said before, there are no rules.
As far as I know there are certain rules to reading the Bible in the original texts. I don’t really know a lot of them so I will not comment on this any further than about the word yom which I do know some of the rules of interpreting it at least.

Ceridwen018 said:
God neglected to address many things. In this situation, those who want to believe in evolution will say, "He didn't say he did....but he didn't say he didn't either! So, I believe it!" People who don't want to believe in evolution will follow your path. Basically, its a moot point.
God said he did something in contrary to the way evolution is said to have happened, thus it is eliminated in my opinion.

About the picture posted I would first like to say: Beautiful, then I would like to ask you what exactly you want me to say about this. If it is about how it formed then I don’t see how the worldwide flood could not have formed it.

Ceridwen018 said:
Just wondering, but can you supply any sort of evidence that suggests the Earth is not billions of years old? If not, I'll stick with my measly "interpretations of data" and hope you realize that your lack of evidence is a serious scientific problem.
First, human accounts of the events, then data that when looked at for evolution seems to evolutionists to back them up. The data I am referring to is the massive graves, fossilization, the C14 in oil that should be too old to have any left, the way the rock layers piled up, the fact that fossils of water life forms have been found all over the earth (even on the tops of mountains), the fact that a ice age would be expected to happen right after the flood (which explains how the north and south poles are, the many things that are thought to be extinct and then found alive, the fact that there are cave drawings of dinosaurs which is impossible since man never lived at the same time as them according to evolution, the fact that dinosaurs are spoken of in cultures all over the world (dragons which even though they are thought of as myths there are similar stories of them all over the world, and they are even spoken of in Job)… you know… that kind of stuff. I wouldn’t go as far as to call it pure evidence, like evolutionist scientists do with what they present, but it comes very close to it, and it is enough for me.

Ceridwen018 said:
By all means, please present them. As I stated to Emu, I have searched high and low for such "ideas" and have come up emptyhanded.
Scroll up… have fun.
 

meogi

Well-Known Member
First, human accounts of the events
Wait a second... oh, right, divinely inspired.
then data that when looked at for evolution seems to evolutionists to back them up.
Yes, it does seem to back them up, because, well, it does.
massive graves, fossilization
Mud slides, volcanoes. Time. Old earth. Check.
the C14 in oil that should be too old to have any left
This actually depends greatly on the location of the oil bed. There are oil bed's with no detectable C14 in them... and explanations as to why some have detectable C14 include deep living bacteria, and how radioactive the rocks around the oil are. But, the italicized above, is enough for old earth. Check.
the way the rock layers piled up
Right, layers upon layers of different types of rock. Old earth. Check. (If you're referring to old rock on top of newer rock... you need to look into plate tectonics... and the italicized words)
the fact that fossils of water life forms have been found all over the earth (even on the tops of mountains)
Do you know how mountains form? Might wanna check that out. Old earth. Check.
the fact that a ice age would be expected to happen right after the flood (which explains how the north and south poles are)
Ice age right after the flood? How the north and south poles are? Huh? (What are you trying to present here?) The poles themselves do present evidence... through the switching of polarity they've gone through since the earth formed. Old earth. Check.
the many things that are thought to be extinct and then found alive
I'm curious what these things are... quite frankly, until I know what you're referring to, I can't argue against it.
the fact that there are cave drawings of dinosaurs which is impossible since man never lived at the same time as them according to evolution, the fact that dinosaurs are spoken of in cultures all over the world (dragons which even though they are thought of as myths there are similar stories of them all over the world, and they are even spoken of in Job)…
As with the above quote, you put quite a bit of trust into some of mankind's interpretations, but not others? I guess it is easier to believe that a drawing is a dinosaur than to believe science knows what it's talking about. I mean, of course it's easier to believe what you can comprehend. But, regardless, what pictures? Same as above. Oh, Dragons != dinosaurs. And if you want to count that as evidence, you're gonna have to show that they do.
I wouldn’t go as far as to call it pure evidence, like evolutionist scientists do with what they present, but it comes very close to it, and it is enough for me.
Well, interpreted as you have, it presents some 'very close to it' evidence... otherwise it's downright evidence for an old earth.
 
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