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Was Jesus Sent to be Crucified?

Mobkem

Member
One of the fundamental beliefs of Christianity is that Jesus had died and allowed for the shedding of his blood for the sake of granting forgiveness to people. In other words Jesus had died on the cross as a sacrifice for our sins. Let us investigate this topic from the Bible, and find out whether Jesus was sent to be crucified or that he was crucified:




1. Willingness of Jesus Christ to Die for Our Sins:


Peter and the two sons of Zebedee were with Jesus Christ before the elders of the people and the chief priests came to take him to crucify him. Jesus at this point talked to Peter and the two sons of Zebedee as in Matthew 26:38 "Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me." Then Jesus went a little further way from them and prayed to God as in Matthew 26:39 "And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."
It is very clear from the above verse in Matthew 26:39 that Jesus had no intention of dying. In this verse it is shown that Jesus was praying strongly (Matthew mentions that Jesus repeated these prayer three time) to have this death removed from him. Had Jesus Christ been sent to be crucified he would not have hesitated to be killed at all. When I relate this to my Christian brothers, they tell me that this hesitation comes from the flesh side of him (in other words he was tempted), and that his soul which is godly does not have this hesitation at all. When we look at Matthew 26:38 we see that Jesus is contradicting this idea by saying, "My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death." (Matthew 26:38). He himself says that it really his soul that is hesitating and not his body. These are Jesus' own words.

2. God Answered the prayers of Jesus Christ:


After Jesus made the above mentioned prayer he was answered by God according to Hebrews 5:7 "Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared." These words clearly show that when Jesus was praying strongly to God, God would grant him his request. The word "heard in that he feared" (Hebrews 5:7) mean that God granted him what he requested. So the above verse shows that when Jesus asked of God to "let this cup pass from" (Matthew 26:39) him, God respond to his prayer and saved him from death or crucifixion.

3. The Post Crucifixion Prophesied Events never happened:


When the people were asking Jesus Christ if he was going to show them a sign, He replied by saying that the only sign that they should expect is the sign of Jonas. Jesus also made sure to specify what exactly this sign was. The details are shown in the following verses:
Matthew 12:38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
Matthew 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Jesus here emphasized what will happen to him by specifically saying that he will be like Jonas in terms of the number of days and nights he will be in the heart of the earth, " For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." (Matthew 12:40). Now let us see if this prophecy came to pass.
Jesus was crucified on Friday, this is certainly known among all Christians, and that is the reason for calling that Friday by "Good Friday". Jesus was buried on Friday night. Now let us start counting:
1.Friday night Jesus was buried. This is night number 1.
2.Saturday day Jesus was still in the grave. This is day number 1.
3.Saturday night Jesus was still in the grave. This is night number 2.

Mary Magdalene, very early in the morning before sun rise and after the Sabbath (Saturday), went to the see Jesus, and he was not there. The following verses relate this event:
Mark 16:1 And when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.
Mark 16:2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.
Mark 16:3 And they said among themselves, Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the sepulchre?
Mark 16:4 And when they looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away: for it was very great.
Mark 16:5 And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted.
Mark 16:6 And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.
The number of days and nights that Jesus had spent in the heart of the earth is 1 day and 2 nights. This clearly challenges what Jesus had prophesied. When I tell this to my Christian brothers, some of them responded by saying that what Jesus wanted to really say was that he will be gone for a while, and not that he will be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights. This is clearly not the case. Had Jesus meant that, he would have said it, but it is clear that he wanted the people to know that this was a sign (miracle) and that it will be like Joans' sign, and that he will be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights. These were his own words.


4. Why Would Jesus Have to Die on the Cross?


According to the Christian doctrine, Jesus died on the cross as a sacrifice for our sins. The idea here is that every human is born with sins, or that all humans will sin, and therefore it was necessary that someone as pure as Jesus would be the crucified to nullify these sins. The question is; why does anyone have to die for our sins when God, the All-Merciful, could as easily give us forgiveness if we ask for it? Isn't God the one who makes the rules? Why does He have to make someone suffer for our sins or for someone else's sins? Isn't that unjust of Him? According to the Bible the way to redemption could be obtained without the need for sacrifice. The Bible says:
Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Ezekiel 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Clearly the soul that sins shall die. Clearly that no one shall bear the iniquity (sins) of others. So Jesus cannot bear the sins of others either. If one is righteous then it shall be upon him, and if one commits a sin then it shall be upon him, and not on Jesus. Finally, the way to repentance and forgiveness is by turning from all sins, doing what is right, and keeping the commandments.
Also we see the same message given by Solomon. He says in the book of Ecclesiastes 12:13 "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man." This is the whole message, and this is the conclusion of messages. It is that one should fear God, and keep the commandments, and nothing else.
Again in 2 Chronicles 7:14 "If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land." This clearly states that to seek forgiveness from God we have to humble ourselves, pray and seek God, and turn away from wickedness.
Finally the Bible says in Samuel 15:22 "And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams." This clearly states that obeying God is better that sacrifice whether this sacrifice is of objects, animals, or humans, or any other type. What God likes is for us to heed and obey Him, and if that is what God likes then it is not of Him to come later and change his mind, and change his ways. God says in the Holy Quran, "Verily God is All-Knowing, All-Wise" The Holy Qur'an, Chapter 9, Verse 28.
Now that we have seen this, Christians say that Jesus has changed some of these laws. Let's look at what Jesus says. In Matthew 5:17 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." Jesus clearly states that he was not sent to abolish the law, the law of which had already existed. So what is mentioned above cannot be discounted. Then Jesus continues to say, in Matthew 5:18 and 19 "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." Jesus here states that not even as much as a dot (tittle) shall not pass from the law. Every thing is kept the way it was. That is why the previous laws cannot be removed or discarded, and those who willfully change these laws "he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven."
 

*Paul*

Jesus loves you
From the mouth of Jesus (not some two bit apologist):


Matthew 20:27 - 28 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.


St. Mark 10:44-45 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all. For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Just to break it down incase the point is missed:

Jesus came to Earth:
"For even the Son of man came" & "Even as the Son of man came"

Why?
"to minister"

And.......
"to give his life a ransom for many".

Just one more
Luke 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

Who was Jesus' blood shed for? Jesus said "which is shed for you"

That includes you and me.
 

*Paul*

Jesus loves you
Was Jesus Sent to be Crucified?

YEs the post above says so in Jesus' own words:
"the Son of Man came to minister AND TO GIVE HIS LIFE A RANSOM FOR MANY."

Are you calling Jesus a liar? I thought that you thought that He was a prophet, a prophet does not lie about why God sent him.
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
Was Jesus Sent to be Crucified?
According to the Bible, yes.
Is this an historically proven fact? No.

But the odds of a Essene rabble-rouser being executed are stronger than the odds of a later 'prophet' flying on a winged horse to Jerusalem .
 

*Paul*

Jesus loves you
Was Jesus Sent to be Crucified?


If he was, it seems that Jesus was to last to know.

Have you considered that he was pointing the listeners to Psalm 22 to show the "audience" (as he had insisted before) that He is the One the Scriptures spoke about. Is it not strange to you that he mirrored the exact words of this Psalm. Yet this psalm is not one of abandonment but is ultimately one full of promises and optimism:

Psalms 22:22-25 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.
For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard. My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.

In any case Jesus new exactly what was coming to Him which is why He sweat as it were drops of blood in Gethsemane, but he did it for us and and was willing to do so, as He said, He could have called legions of Angels to rescue Him if He so wished but He said the Scripture must be fulfilled, The Son of Man came and went as it was written of Him.
 

cardero

Citizen Mod
Have you considered that he was pointing the listeners to Psalm 22 to show the "audience" (as he had insisted before) that He is the One the Scriptures spoke about. Is it not strange to you that he mirrored the exact words of this Psalm. Yet this psalm is not one of abandonment but is ultimately one full of promises and optimism:

Psalms 22:22-25 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.
For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard. My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.

In any case Jesus new exactly what was coming to Him which is why He sweat as it were drops of blood in Gethsemane, but he did it for us and and was willing to do so, as He said, He could have called legions of Angels to rescue Him if He so wished but He said the Scripture must be fulfilled, The Son of Man came and went as it was written of Him.
This is a strong possibility; I would also have accepted "people say crazy **** when they are nailed to a cross".
 

zenzero

Its only a Label
Friend Mobkem,

Was Jesus Sent to be Crucified?

It is not important what for a form takes birth BUT what *YOU* do is surely important for you.
Jesus achieved *salvation* which is what he was here for to show a WAY to reach *salvation*; now, what are you/ me / every form here for? ? ? surely not on a fault finding missions?

Love & rgds
 

Bick

Member
One of the fundamental beliefs of Christianity is that Jesus had died and allowed for the shedding of his blood for the sake of granting forgiveness to people. In other words Jesus had died on the cross as a sacrifice for our sins. Let us investigate this topic from the Bible, and find out whether Jesus was sent to be crucified or that he was crucified:

1. Willingness of Jesus Christ to Die for Our Sins:

2. God Answered the prayers of Jesus Christ:

3. The Post Crucifixion Prophesied Events never happened:

4. Why Would Jesus Have to Die on the Cross?

MY COMMENTS: Let's look at your points:

1. Willingness of Jesus Christ to Die for Our Sins:
Yes he prayed, "Let this cup pass from me, nevertheless, not my will but thine be done." Even though he knew and spoke of the being killed by the Jewish leaders, he was still human (as well as Divine) and could experience pain, disappointment, Joy and sorrow. Yes, his 'soul was exceeding sorrowful, even unto death'. That is, his senses, his feelings, for that is what the human soul is.

Some theologians are of the opinion that in the garden, Satan, that old adversary, was involved in Jesus almost dying in the garden, which would mean He wouldn't C been crucified according to the Scriptures.

2. God Answered the prayers of Jesus Christ:
It is unfortunate that the translators rendered the Greek "ouk" as "from" instead of the correct translation "out of," in Heb. 5:7.
Christ Jesus had faith that His Father could save him out of death.

3. The Post Crucifixion Prophesied Events never happened:

This statement is a completely wrong!

Jesus, indeed, gave the sign of the prophet Jonas, who was three days and three days in the heart of the fish, and likewise He would be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
There are documents to describe the passover event. Notice:

THE DAY BEFORE THE PASSOVER--the 14th day of Nisan--"The preparation day"-
Our Tuesday sunset to Wednesday sunset (Jewish days).
Some Events:
The "preparation" for the last supper
After evening had come, the last supper
The last discourse to the eleven, followed by His prayer
They go to Gethsemane
The agony in the garden
His betrayal by Judas
The trials: continued throughout our Tuesday night
Led away to be crucified
Crucified the third hour (our 9 a.m. Wednesday)
The sixth hour..darkness
The ninth hour..Jesus' expiring cry (our Wednesday 3 p.m.)
Nicodemus begs Pilate for Jesus' body. He is buried in haste before 6 p.m., the "high day" (the first day of the Feast began); our Wednesday sunset.

THE FIRST DAY OF THE FEAST--(our Wednesday sunset to Thursday sunset); the 15th day of Nisan.
Some Events:
The first night and day in the tomb

THE SECOND DAY OF THE FEAST--the 16th day of Nisan (Thursday sunset to Friday sunset)
Some Events:
The second night and day in the tomb

THE THIRD DAY OF THE FEAST--"The weekly sabbath"--The 17th day of Nisan
(Friday sunset to Saturday sunset).
The third night and day in the tomb.

"THE FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK"--The 16th day of Nisan. Starting with our Saturday sunset.

THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS OCCURRED !! JUST AS HE PROCLAIMED !

4. Why Would Jesus Have to Die on the Cross?

From the history of mankind, starting with Adam, God instigated an animal sacrifice to atone for sin. It was set forth with great importance with many rituals, to Israel, God's chosen people prior to the cross.

Christ Jesus became the perfect blood sacrifice to take away our sins.

It is my understanding that sin entered into the world through Adam, and death through sin, in that all have sinned. Actually, I believe babies are innocent until they do err, or sin.

As for the accounts referred to in the OT, God wanted them, Israel, to know the awful consequences of sin. It was of great importance for Israel to be free of the sins of the nations, which included venereal diseases, for it was through Israel that the Redeemer was to come.
Yes, the Commandments were given and if one kept them perfectly, he would be counted as righteous; but, other scriptures tell us that none kept them perfectly, they only pointed out where they were sinning; to show them they needed a saviour, who could change their hearts of stone to hearts of flesh, as they can be born again today, through Christ the Redeemet; and a remnant of Israeli believers will born again as a new nation when Christ Jesus comes again to rescue them and establish the Messianic Kingdom.
 

Mobkem

Member
Is God unable to cleanse us and there is no solution except to send his son or himself to be killed and humiliated
I can not believe that we in the twentieth century and the Christians still believe that
1 = 3
3 = 1
Something strange
 

Ba'al

Active Member
He said the Scripture must be fulfilled, The Son of Man came and went as it was written of Him.


Nowhere was it prophesied in the Hebrew Bible that the coming messiah was to die for our sins. That is why the Jews killed Jesus. The messiah was actually prophesied to be a great king like David, nothing at all like the way Jesus was. Decades later the Christians scoured old scripture to find passages that would refer to him being the messiah. Of course when you look that hard you're bound to find some.
 

darkendless

Guardian of Asgaard
Is God unable to cleanse us and there is no solution except to send his son or himself to be killed and humiliated
I can not believe that we in the twentieth century and the Christians still believe that
1 = 3
3 = 1
Something strange

You believe the Quran is scientific, equally as rediculous.

Why criticise one religion for the benefit of another equally frail system of beliefs?
 

*Paul*

Jesus loves you
Is God unable to cleanse us and there is no solution except to send his son or himself to be killed and humiliated
I can not believe that we in the twentieth century and the Christians still believe that
1 = 3
3 = 1
Something strange

Perhaps applying earthly mathematics to the Divine Essence is not appropriate. We do not subject God to our Earthly reasoning but rather rest in the knowledge of Him who created all things by His divine Word and believe the promise that one day we will know fully even as we are known fully.
 

*Paul*

Jesus loves you
Nowhere was it prophesied in the Hebrew Bible that the coming messiah was to die for our sins. That is why the Jews killed Jesus. The messiah was actually prophesied to be a great king like David, nothing at all like the way Jesus was. Decades later the Christians scoured old scripture to find passages that would refer to him being the messiah. Of course when you look that hard you're bound to find some.

Like the Apostle Paul, the veil must first be lifted from your heart and the scales must drop from the eyes of your understanding before you see it, I myself felt as though I read a new book when I read the Old Testament after being born of the Spirit. It is truly remarkable to see how blind you once were.
 
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