The Catholic Church: force for good, or evil?

footprints said:

Personally Penguin, I would suggest you and violet watch the movie, "In the pursuit of happiness." This person was not only a refugee, but a refugee in his own country and in his own society. He not only went across town with only the shirt on his back and a dream, he had a child with him.

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One exceptionally brilliant man did this and even with all of his intelligence only barely managed to do it. If you or I tried to do this we would fail miserably. And the only reason that movie has never been made is that it happens so often it isn't remarkable enough to be made into a movie.

footprints said:

Yes it is that simple to to leave a church. It is just as simple for anybody to join a church. It is just as simple for anybody to change anything in their life, even the country in which they live or to move across town.

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In most cases, deciding to spend one's Sunday mornings at home instead of at church is considerably easier than uprooting one's family.

And while it may be financially difficult to change many things in one's life, everybody has the financial resources to choose not to donate to a church.

footprints said:

It was of course one example of many I could have used. What is scientifically evidenced is scientifically evidenced. Albeit some would see this as losing the argument.

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Okay, shoot. What comparison do you have that will make it okay for a priest to abuse a bunch of kids?

I believe many things are right yet do the wrong things, simply because this is what the law of the land tells me I must do.

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I question what exactly those things are, but assuming you are telling the truth, that's your fault, not anybody else's.

I am no different to everybody else on the planet, I am not immune to hypocrisy. In fact where the laws of the land are concerned being a hypocrite to my own personal beliefs, does in fact make me a good person in the eyes of the law.

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But it doesn't make you a good person.

Morals are perception based. What you may consider moral others may see as immoral and vice versa. Laws are the same for all people in the land, albeit on a perception basis some people may appear exempt or above the law.

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Morals are not perception based. Sexually abusing kids is wrong no matter what you think. Telling people lies that cause them to die of AIDS is wrong no matter how you perceive it.

footprints said:

To gain a better life.

Yes it is that simple to to leave a church. It is just as simple for anybody to join a church. It is just as simple for anybody to change anything in their life, even the country in which they live or to move across town. This though doesn't always happen as it does in dreams, it generally takes a lot of hard work and dedication to succeed, it often doesn't happen without a bit of suffering, and the end resultant it doesn't always meet with the expectations which we envisaged.

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this is going to be my last post here for the night.
I hardly understand the point of this conversation
and i'm not feeling very well.

so let me just say, i did leave the RC church,
and I did leave behind all my friends
and i did leave behind basically my whole life
including my career as a paid RC parish pianist
(a year or so later)
because I had to stand on the side of life and truth.
(in relation to the integrity of my own being)

yet still I cannot move a town away
either with or without my children
to improve our lives.

I never said the former was EASY.
But the two are incomparable.

Storm said:

OK, good points which I acknowledge.

However, I have to defend them, too. I've been homeless, and therefore the recipient of many local charities' aid. The ONLY one that was guilt-free and compassionate was the Catholic Sisters of the Road, run by a local convent. No sermons (unlike other faith-based places), no lectures, just a helping hand.

I can't speak as to others, of course, but that one has my utmost respect and heartfelt gratitude.

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I have seen similar groups. The problem I have there is that I can't really give the RCC as a whole lot of credit for those organisation: in my experience they are vastly under-funded, sometimes as a direct result of not lining up with RCC ideology. A good example of this is needle exchange programs; I know of one in Philadelphia/Camden which is nominally Catholic but receives no funding from the RCC because they give out condoms and needles no questions asked; which only makes sense since their target clientele is prostitutes. Meanwhile the RCC maintains a gigantic cathedral just a few blocks away.

Imagist said:

One exceptionally brilliant man did this and even with all of his intelligence only barely managed to do it. If you or I tried to do this we would fail miserably. And the only reason that movie has never been made is that it happens so often it isn't remarkable enough to be made into a movie.

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Many exceptionally brilliant people do this on a daily and yearly basis. They set themselves a dream/goal then go and achieve this dream.

What is remarkable is that you do not see this happening around you.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

In most cases, deciding to spend one's Sunday mornings at home instead of at church is considerably easier than uprooting one's family.

And while it may be financially difficult to change many things in one's life, everybody has the financial resources to choose not to donate to a church.

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Many people do not consider it uprooting one's family. And many people in Australia anyway, uproot their family every Sunday to go on family outings and all sorts of things, and find this easier than sitting at home.

Many people find many excuses for many things. If the excuse a person gives to themselves appeases their intelligence, it has to be a good excuse to them.

Imagist said:

Okay, shoot. What comparison do you have that will make it okay for a priest to abuse a bunch of kids?

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Imagist, if you are going to become totally irrational, don't bother posting to me. Nobody that I have seen in this forum has condoned that it is okay to sexually abuse anybody.

Imagist said:

I question what exactly those things are, but assuming you are telling the truth, that's your fault, not anybody else's.

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Yes it is my fault, I have not attempted to blame anybody else. However it is how intelligence works, as an example in Australia it is compulsory to vote, I personally don't believe in this law, however it is the law, and I will uphold this law.

Imagist said:

But it doesn't make you a good person.

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Whether a person is a good person or not is perception based. Some might say you are good person and others might say the exact opposite. Each would be right to their own perception.

Imagist said:

Morals are not perception based. Sexually abusing kids is wrong no matter what you think. Telling people lies that cause them to die of AIDS is wrong no matter how you perceive it.

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Your irrationality just gets worse.

I personally do not distinguish between sexual abuse of a child or any other person sexually abused in our society, it is all wrong and equally as devasting. Does this mean I hold higher morals than you do?

UltraViolet said:

this is going to be my last post here for the night.
I hardly understand the point of this conversation
and i'm not feeling very well.

so let me just say, i did leave the RC church,
and I did leave behind all my friends
and i did leave behind basically my whole life
including my career as a paid RC parish pianist
(a year or so later)
because I had to stand on the side of life and truth.
(in relation to the integrity of my own being)

yet still I cannot move a town away
either with or without my children
to improve our lives.

I never said the former was EASY.
But the two are incomparable.

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Only in your mind Violet. Some people only give themselves reasons and excuses as to why they cannot do something, and some people only give themselves reasons and excuses as to why they can do something.

You tell me you cannot do something, guess what, I believe you. I would even go one step further and say that whilst ever you keep that attitude your status quo will become your reality, unless of course some knight in shining armour comes in and swoops you away.

footprints said:

Many people do not consider it uprooting one's family. And many people in Australia anyway, uproot their family every Sunday to go on family outings and all sorts of things, and find this easier than sitting at home.

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When I said "uproot their family", I meant literally uprooting them. Not going to church is a lot easier than moving your family to a new country or even to a new neighbourhood across town.

footprints said:

Only in your mind Violet. Some people only give themselves reasons and excuses as to why they cannot do something, and some people only give themselves reasons and excuses as to why they can do something.

You tell me you cannot do something, guess what, I believe you. I would even go one step further and say that whilst ever you keep that attitude your status quo will become your reality, unless of course some knight in shining armour comes in and swoops you away.

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I refuse to discuss details of my personal life on these boards anymore
to try and prove points,

but you are presumptous in the utmost to address me,
or anyone you do not actually know, in this way.

Your utopia world exists in YOUR mind.

In the real world it takes TIME to make big changes.
It takes HEALTH to make big changes.
and often it takes MONEY to make big changes.
(even with unbending intent and total dedication)

Great things are not borne overnight.

But you can leave a damned church overnight.

That's all I was ever saying.

Your presumption, assumption, judgementalism, and utopianism
makes real conversation with you almost impossible.

You are on some quest to prove that everyone who has not (yet)
attained their goals/ hopes/dreams/visions...
is lacking in "faith" or some magical "positive attitude".

A positive attitude won't land (and keep) me gigs.
Four sets of dynamically performed music will.


Let's see you do that overnight honey.

and I don't want a freiking knight.
Knights are just as fairy tale as your overnight success,
happily ever after fantasy land.

I will die either as Lady Shallot or Emilie Autumn, thank you.

UltraViolet said:

yet still I cannot move a town away
either with or without my children
to improve our lives.

I never said the former was EASY.
But the two are incomparable.

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.....YET STILL.

gee. I wonder why I chose those words.

It is IRRESPONIBLE to gamble with your children's safety and welfare.

Weather it has to do with a church, your home, or anything else.

Gamblers are never satisfied with what they "win" anyway.

You wanna lose your children to the very "state" you're trying to run/escape/flee from,
be my guest. It's your gamble to take.

I'm a... mystic atheist. Someone had to provide me with a causal link to Gwyneth, so it must be time for this fool to saddle up. That's what I get for believing in holding a hope for the former Church, but if anyone dislikes the current face of evil; blame your priest. It was a fellow Catholic who accepted my worldly kingdom for questioning my faith; and provided me misdirection... whoo, nelly; couldn't have wrote a better script for these fools...

Not quite a virgin birth, but I began in ADC by giving away love to straight criminals, (doing time no other man would have served) from the street, to the world, and beyond. I don't know what book you people were reading from, but seemed pretty clear to me that idolatry would not include that which was animated. I would seem pretty clear to me that a US government preaching a separation of church and state would not find itself holding the bag of Gwynnite and sponsoring the only known prophet - at least without trying to fix that which was broke - 12:18... what the **** did you guys do?

Holy... there it was. Whatever "sin" Christianity performed yesterday... you have made me into something I was never meant to be. I have absolutely no idea how some ancient book of superstitions predicted "a year of being without sin" but I figure a declaration to the US govt from crazy ol' ellen saying "I cannot work for I love Gwyneth Paltrow" just might link a Christian man of faith carelessly wishing "to be a prophet of god" to this payee in Glendale. Sweet. That's how the big dogs play.

I don't know what you people really believe in, but I would check the mathematics; my old boss tried to call me "messiah;" I didn't sign up for that gig. You people are just beyond belief. I don't know where you ever expected hell to exist other than the mind, I can't imagine why a Christian could not have tried that place that my faith directed me towards - to burn in hell for all eternity for you - because that's the way love works.

Book does say, fear god; never did intend a gospel of satan, never did intend for the "home of the free" to be so beguiled by their ministers away from the book that clearly states - love of money is the root of all evil - 9/11 is clearly a call to authority, and every act of aggression ever performed by this country began the same way, with an act of human sacrifice of its own children... so, then, to Vancouver, and the Daughter of God.

I did love you more than anything else, Gwyneth, but when mathematics turns the hatred of wishing, and screaming, and almost praying for self destruction; how one resists the lure of the eternal by going 6-0 with faith healing in the name of Gwyneth Paltrow, and if I had no fear whatsoever of walking out that door to NY if the wrong call came... so there it is. Keep accepting answers, that's fine, don't ask no questions; but there ain't no False in my theology... and I have no idea beyond "creator of the universe" or perhaps avatar of science... animus of serpent, perhaps; but there's plenty of Not Knowing going on right here under your noses - well, in nature, anyway.

Tell you this part, should have been obvious. Story does not begin at the beginning, story begins at the end. Whatever was my Gwynnie thing resides now in me, and it is going to the new promised land in Vancouver. And that's it for answers; I was just the delivery boy... live and learn, I guess... but the dead know nothing.

UltraViolet said:

I refuse to discuss details of my personal life on these boards anymore
to try and prove points,

but you are presumptous in the utmost to address me,
or anyone you do not actually know, in this way.

Your utopia world exists in YOUR mind.

In the real world it takes TIME to make big changes.
It takes HEALTH to make big changes.
and often it takes MONEY to make big changes.
(even with unbending intent and total dedication)

Great things are not borne overnight.

But you can leave a damned church overnight.

That's all I was ever saying.

Your presumption, assumption, judgementalism, and utopianism
makes real conversation with you almost impossible.

You are on some quest to prove that everyone who has not (yet)
attained their goals/ hopes/dreams/visions...
is lacking in "faith" or some magical "positive attitude".

A positive attitude won't land (and keep) me gigs.
Four sets of dynamically performed music will.


Let's see you do that overnight honey.

and I don't want a freiking knight.
Knights are just as fairy tale as your overnight success,
happily ever after fantasy land.

I will die either as Lady Shallot or Emilie Autumn, thank you.

Click to expand...

LOL and you can join a damned Church overnight.

The world is full of fairytales (success stories) which in reality have happened. Nobody has said anything about overnight success, just you. All things like I previously said take hard work and dedication and an attitude to succeed. Success can be as much as being a billionaire to just being happy pertaining to who you are and what you are.

footprints said:

LOL and you can join a damned Church overnight.

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That's exactly the point.
It IS easy to join and/or leave a church overnight.
It is ordinary PEOPLE who actively choose to uphold a church institution or not.
For whatever personal reasons,
ordinary people actively choose weekly to support corrupt, antiquated hellfire institutions.
It's not like anybody is FORCING them.
The majority of churchgoers will not need to find new employment like I did.

You can't just blame the institution for it's corruption is what I'm saying.
It's the people in the pews who make it possible,
and in the case of a church,
(at least in the free world)
there is no REAL hinderance to leaving.
(beyond one's own mind)

footprints said:

The world is full of fairytales (success stories) which in reality have happened. Nobody has said anything about overnight success, just you. All things like I previously said take hard work and dedication and an attitude to succeed. Success can be as much as being a billionaire to just being happy pertaining to who you are and what you are.

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There was this....

UltraViolet said:

Most of us can't even afford to move across town, honey.

Leaving a church? pfft. easy.
Just stop going.

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and then this...

footprints said:

It doesn't take money to move across town. It takes a person to just get up and move and trust that everything will eventually work out for the best.

I would suggest the same excuses you are using for not moving across town, people in congregations use similar excuses for not doing something either.

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also, no one said anything about success stories being fairytales.
just you.

Anyway, I have clearly made my point,

That's exactly the point.
It IS easy to join and/or leave a church overnight.

Click to expand...

It is ordinary PEOPLE who actively choose to uphold a church institution or not.
For whatever personal reasons,
ordinary people actively choose weekly to support corrupt, antiquated hellfire institutions.
It's not like anybody is FORCING them.
The majority of churchgoers will not need to find new employment like I did.

You can't just blame the institution for it's corruption is what I'm saying.
It's the people in the pews who make it possible,
and in the case of a church,
there is no REAL hinderance to leaving.
(beyond one's own mind)

Click to expand...

and have gotten off the teeter-totter.:seesaw:

UltraViolet said:

That's exactly the point.
It IS easy to join and/or leave a church overnight.
It is ordinary PEOPLE who actively choose to uphold a church institution or not.
For whatever personal reasons,
ordinary people actively choose weekly to support corrupt, antiquated hellfire institutions.
It's not like anybody is FORCING them.
The majority of churchgoers will not need to find new employment like I did.

You can't just blame the institution for it's corruption is what I'm saying.
It's the people in the pews who make it possible,
and in the case of a church,
(at least in the free world)
there is no REAL hinderance to leaving.
(beyond one's own mind)



There was this....



and then this...




also, no one said anything about success stories being fairytales.
just you.

Anyway, I have clearly made my point,

and have gotten off the teeter-totter.:seesaw:

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Now you have made the point, a person can join a church (a well meaning group of people who just want people to love each other and give the needy a helping hand) or they can leave a church.

Everything cuts both ways. Even moving across town with no money, and sorry to say the story as it pertains to The pursuit of happiness, isn't a one off event, many people do it every day, leave a house with just the shirts on their backs and many people with children in toe.

Ever see Dogma? The RCC is guilty of using the witchcraft of symmetry to speak for god. If I lived in Rome, I would move; and soon. That's all I got to say about my last post.

... and now I know how.

imaginaryme said:

We sit here arguing religion. Alex Jones and his crowd argue globalization. Al Gore and his cronies argue carbon taxes. Abortion. Gay marriages. Gun control. AIDS in Africa. Health care. Britney Spears. Every problem is the same problem, and nobody is going to act until it is too late...

No, America is not an extension of Rome; America is Rome, and Rome must burn. Convergence is pushing all towards chaos, war is inevitable, and once the shooting starts, the jackals will turn upon themselves. Fingers will be pointed, wrongs will be exposed, and there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth... if we only knew... something could have been done... They know. They are planning. And when the world is burning, and when the common man, cannot tell right from wrong; cannot tell up from down... They will unleash their master stroke... a conspiracy two thousand years in the making... one "ordinary man" will suddenly rise from the confusion... turn against the money interests, the greedy, the exploiters, one man will assume the title we have been programmed to trust - Jesus Christ.

The Vatican will fall, and They will own the world. Call me Lucifer. You have been warned. Trust no one.

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2012 is close enough to the millennium to fulfill prophecy.