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The Catholic Church: force for good, or evil?

F

footprints

Well-Known Member
9-10ths_Penguin said:
It's been a long time since the Catholic Church had the power to throw people in prison for not tithing.

And your right to leave your own country is contingent upon being accepted by another country. AFAIK, there are no countries that consider people from the US to be refugees. It's even been tried a few times here in Canada by defectors from the US military.
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Personally Penguin, I would suggest you and violet watch the movie, "In the pursuit of happiness." This person was not only a refugee, but a refugee in his own country and in his own society. He not only went across town with only the shirt on his back and a dream, he had a child with him.
 
blackout

blackout

Violet.
footprints said:
Personally Penguin, I would suggest you and violet watch the movie, "In the pursuit of happiness." This person was not only a refugee, but a refugee in his own country and in his own society. He not only went across town with only the shirt on his back and a dream, he had a child with him.
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I have 4.

I saw the movie.
I suggest you have a child.
 
F

footprints

Well-Known Member
Imagist said:
Not to rain on your parade, but when the only comparison you can make that comes out positive is to the prison system, you've already lost the argument.
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It was of course one example of many I could have used. What is scientifically evidenced is scientifically evidenced. Albeit some would see this as losing the argument.

Imagist said:
If you believe the right things and do the wrong things, that doesn't make you a good person, it just makes you a hypocrite in addition to being a bad person.
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I believe many things are right yet do the wrong things, simply because this is what the law of the land tells me I must do.

I am no different to everybody else on the planet, I am not immune to hypocrisy. In fact where the laws of the land are concerned being a hypocrite to my own personal beliefs, does in fact make me a good person in the eyes of the law.



Imagist said:
Just because it is legal does not mean it is moral.
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Morals are perception based. What you may consider moral others may see as immoral and vice versa. Laws are the same for all people in the land, albeit on a perception basis some people may appear exempt or above the law.
 
9-10ths_Penguin

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
footprints said:
Personally Penguin, I would suggest you and violet watch the movie, "In the pursuit of happiness."
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I've seen it.

footprints said:
This person was not only a refugee, but a refugee in his own country and in his own society. He not only went across town with only the shirt on his back and a dream, he had a child with him.
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Exactly how is this relevant? You claimed before that anyone can leave their own country, because other countries will let in refugees. I never said that no Americans go through hard times; I tried to say that if arrive at an international airport or a border crossing and say "I'm an American and I request entry to your country as a refugee", you'll get turned away. If you're very lucky, you might get a hearing first, but the end result is the same: you can't get into another country as a "refugee" from the United States. Unless they can get accepted as a normal immigrant (which can be very difficult for most and impossible for many), Americans are stuck with the country they've got.
 
F

footprints

Well-Known Member
9-10ths_Penguin said:
I've seen it.


Exactly how is this relevant? You claimed before that anyone can leave their own country, because other countries will let in refugees. I never said that no Americans go through hard times; I tried to say that if arrive at an international airport or a border crossing and say "I'm an American and I request entry to your country as a refugee", you'll get turned away. If you're very lucky, you might get a hearing first, but the end result is the same: you can't get into another country as a "refugee" from the United States. Unless they can get accepted as a normal immigrant (which can be very difficult for most and impossible for many), Americans are stuck with the country they've got.
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Perception based, in Australia all cases would be looked upon on their merits. Most other intelligent countries would do the same thing.
 
9-10ths_Penguin

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
footprints said:
Perception based, in Australia all cases would be looked upon on their merits. Most other intelligent countries would do the same thing.
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All right then: please give us one case where an American was admitted to Australia as a refugee. Just one.
 
Imagist

Imagist

Worshipper of Athe.
Storm said:
The thing is, Auto, if you want anything resembling an honest answer to the question of the OP, you can't take the church's misdeeds in isolation. You have to compare them to SOMETHING, be it their positive influences or the rest of the human race.
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Okay, let's compare their misdeeds to their positive influences. They've given a lot of money to charities, and indeed do a lot of charitable work themselves.

But then if you look just a little bit closer, nearly every one of their positive endeavours is coloured by ulterior motives. From crisis pregnancy centres that basically bully women into not having abortions and then provide them with little-to-no medical care to rape counselling that doesn't include the morning-after pill to forcing people to listen to a sermon before they can have some food, it's really questionable whether any of the good things things that the RCC does are actually as good as they seem. And since their accounting practices are essentially a black box, constituents have no idea how much of their money even goes to charity. The "charitable" donations of the RCC may actually be draining money away from other organisations that would spend a much larger percentage of their donations on actual charity, in which case the "good" done by the RCC is actually counter-productive.

Now let's get to the bad. There are a lot of things I could mention, but frankly, the pope's public stance on condoms in Africa has the potential to kill enough people that that alone easily cancels out all the good that the Catholic church does, even if we assume the best and give them credit for all of their charitable endeavours being legit.

In short, the balance is "maybe possibly feed a few poor people after forcing them to listen to a sermon" versus "kill a few hundred thousand people". It's not even close.
 
Imagist

Imagist

Worshipper of Athe.
Storm said:
Well, if you want to judge it by the internal standard of perfection, obviously it fails. I'm trying to be more objective, though. Which is why I initially tried to compare them to other institutions. Why that was rejected, I'm not really sure.
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If everyone in the world was a murderer except one rapist, would that mean the rapist was a good person?

The example is a bit extreme, but the point is that a person or organisation's good or evil isn't measured by comparison to other people or organisations; it's measured by whether what they do is good or bad.
 
9-10ths_Penguin

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Imagist said:
Okay, let's compare their misdeeds to their positive influences. They've given a lot of money to charities, and indeed do a lot of charitable work themselves.

But then if you look just a little bit closer, nearly every one of their positive endeavours is coloured by ulterior motives. From crisis pregnancy centres that basically bully women into not having abortions and then provide them with little-to-no medical care to rape counselling that doesn't include the morning-after pill to forcing people to listen to a sermon before they can have some food, it's really questionable whether any of the good things things that the RCC does are actually as good as they seem.
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Actually, the local Church-supported centre for young mothers seems to do a lot of good work: Rose of Sharon ::: Services for Young Mothers in York Region

It's not completely in line with my personal philosophy, but IMO it probably is significantly positive overall.

Imagist said:
And since their accounting practices are essentially a black box, constituents have no idea how much of their money even goes to charity. The "charitable" donations of the RCC may actually be draining money away from other organisations that would spend a much larger percentage of their donations on actual charity, in which case the "good" done by the RCC is actually counter-productive.
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I think this varies. At least around here, at the parish and diocese level, they're good about saying where money goes. You can even download their annual reports with budget breakdowns.

Higher up than that, you're probably right.
 
F

footprints

Well-Known Member
UltraViolet said:
..... or parents ?
in jail, for not paying their extortion.... erm.... taxes?
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Going without what, a home? If that is what it took Violet. A home is where the heart is, love is what makes a home, the rest is accomodation. And yes, some people have to do it without parents, and do you know what, some people succeed.

Yes some people see taxes as extortion, others see it as their resonibility for being part of the society which they belong to.
 
Storm

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
Imagist said:
Okay, let's compare their misdeeds to their positive influences. They've given a lot of money to charities, and indeed do a lot of charitable work themselves.

But then if you look just a little bit closer, nearly every one of their positive endeavours is coloured by ulterior motives. From crisis pregnancy centres that basically bully women into not having abortions and then provide them with little-to-no medical care to rape counselling that doesn't include the morning-after pill to forcing people to listen to a sermon before they can have some food, it's really questionable whether any of the good things things that the RCC does are actually as good as they seem. And since their accounting practices are essentially a black box, constituents have no idea how much of their money even goes to charity. The "charitable" donations of the RCC may actually be draining money away from other organisations that would spend a much larger percentage of their donations on actual charity, in which case the "good" done by the RCC is actually counter-productive.

Now let's get to the bad. There are a lot of things I could mention, but frankly, the pope's public stance on condoms in Africa has the potential to kill enough people that that alone easily cancels out all the good that the Catholic church does, even if we assume the best and give them credit for all of their charitable endeavours being legit.

In short, the balance is "maybe possibly feed a few poor people after forcing them to listen to a sermon" versus "kill a few hundred thousand people". It's not even close.
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OK, good points which I acknowledge.

However, I have to defend them, too. I've been homeless, and therefore the recipient of many local charities' aid. The ONLY one that was guilt-free and compassionate was the Catholic Sisters of the Road, run by a local convent. No sermons (unlike other faith-based places), no lectures, just a helping hand.

I can't speak as to others, of course, but that one has my utmost respect and heartfelt gratitude.
 
Storm

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
Imagist said:
If everyone in the world was a murderer except one rapist, would that mean the rapist was a good person?

The example is a bit extreme, but the point is that a person or organisation's good or evil isn't measured by comparison to other people or organisations; it's measured by whether what they do is good or bad.
Click to expand...
But it's not that black-and-white.
 
blackout

blackout

Violet.
footprints said:
Going without what, a home? If that is what it took Violet. A home is where the heart is, love is what makes a home, the rest is accomodation.

Yes some people see taxes as extortion, others see it as their resonibility for being part of the society which they belong to.
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Going without a home for WHAT PURPOSE?
If that's what it took for What?

AND what does this have to do with how simple it is to leave a church?

EDIT: It's freikn cold out here.
What kind of a heart would i have to purposefully leave my children without accomodation?
 
F

footprints

Well-Known Member
UltraViolet said:
Going without a home for WHAT PURPOSE?
If that's what it took for What?

AND what does this have to do with how simple it is to leave a church?
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To gain a better life.

Yes it is that simple to to leave a church. It is just as simple for anybody to join a church. It is just as simple for anybody to change anything in their life, even the country in which they live or to move across town. This though doesn't always happen as it does in dreams, it generally takes a lot of hard work and dedication to succeed, it often doesn't happen without a bit of suffering, and the end resultant it doesn't always meet with the expectations which we envisaged.
 
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