The Catholic Church: force for good, or evil?

footprints said:

So by your logic of reason we should immediately condemn all countries and all people who belong to those contries where many people are in goal? The tree is bad let us condemn it and get rid of it.

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No, I'm saying that until the Catholic Church shows that it's interested in righting its wrongs, I'm going to reserve judgement on how good an institution it is.

footprints said:

As an engineer, when you tender for a project, does every opposing company tendering against you use the same ideas?

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They're all based on the same range of established principles. The expressions of those principles may be different, but they're all defended using the same set of ideas and approaches.

footprints said:

When you speak out publically on matters, does every other engineer agree with your hypothesis?

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No, but hopefully they'll all agree that my hypothesis is defensible.

footprints said:

Does every architect design the exact same building for the exact same spot?

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No, architecture is a creative profession that's reliant on individual interpretation and expression. Still, that expression has to take set established facts into account. It's one thing for two architects to interpret the dynamic of the interaction between the building and the surrounding neighbourhood in different ways. It's something completely different for them to have conflicting interpretations of the yield strength of structural steel.

footprints said:

Is there only one computer operating system in the world?

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What does that have to do with anything?

footprints said:

When atheists make claims against religious charities, they aren't just giving their opinion, they base this premise on their own facts, irrespective of how twisted and distorted these facts are.

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I'm not familiar with any cases like you're describing. If you want me to respond, I think you'll have to give some examples.

The Catholic Church: force for good, or evil?

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It's not a "force" for anything.

no one "forces" anyone to join.
no one "forces" anyone to leave their kids there.
no one "forces" anyone to follow their doctrines or not.

If ordinary people did not give them power,
did not give them money,
week in and week out,
they would be a higherarchy of nothing.

If catholics thought the actions of their higherarchy
were so heinus, I suppose they would leave.

who IS the church?

9-10ths_Penguin said:

No, I'm saying that until the Catholic Church shows that it's interested in righting its wrongs, I'm going to reserve judgement on how good an institution it is.

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The catholic church goes a lot deeper than the Pope, Cardinals et al. The church is the majority of people. The majority of people I know in the catholic church condemn this.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

They're all based on the same range of established principles. The expressions of those principles may be different, but they're all defended using the same set of ideas and approaches.

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LOL many other engineers will tell you, you are flat out wrong, it is generally a selling point in winning the contract.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

No, but hopefully they'll all agree that my hypothesis is defensible.

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Whether they do or not is one thing, whether they admit is another.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

No, architecture is a creative profession that's reliant on individual interpretation and expression. Still, that expression has to take set established facts into account. It's one thing for two architects to interpret the dynamic of the interaction between the building and the surrounding neighbourhood in different ways. It's something completely different for them to have conflicting interpretations of the yield strength of structural steel.

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Even the strength of structural steel has a window. Some engineers will use the base minium and some will go over the top.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

What does that have to do with anything?

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It clearly shows and estabilishes, that two people can be looking at the same thing and yet see it differently (human perception). That there is more than one way to skin a cat, and that two or more paths can lead to the same resultant.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

I'm not familiar with any cases like you're describing. If you want me to respond, I think you'll have to give some examples.

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I really do not care whether you respond or not, if you don't know this already, it says you are blinded by it and see it as something different. Not really worth while putting anything up we would only end up agreeing to disagree.

footprints said:

The catholic church goes a lot deeper than the Pope, Cardinals et al. The church is the majority of people. The majority of people I know in the catholic church condemn this.

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The majority of people I know also uphold the Church's authority, which is the thing that allowed these abuses to be covered up.

footprints said:

LOL many other engineers will tell you, you are flat out wrong, it is generally a selling point in winning the contract.

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It's a selling point to come up with a methodology that isn't generally accepted?

footprints said:

Whether they do or not is one thing, whether they admit is another.

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No, they generally do admit it. Casting dispersions on the quality of another engineer's work without good reason is usually considered an ethical breach (or at least it is under the law where I am).

footprints said:

Even the strength of structural steel has a window. Some engineers will use the base minium and some will go over the top.

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No, they don't. "Going over the top" would be a very bad thing to do when designing a building's structure.

footprints said:

It clearly shows and estabilishes, that two people can be looking at the same thing and yet see it differently (human perception). That there is more than one way to skin a cat, and that two or more paths can lead to the same resultant.

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Getting back on point, there are claims that are false and claims that are true. Stylistic decisions about building design are fuzzy and subject to interpretation, but claims like "these condoms have been deliberately infected with HIV" are either factually true, period, or factually false, period. This is not a question of interpretation. There is not some other way to "skin this cat" to change the truth or falsehood of the statement.

footprints said:

I really do not care whether you respond or not, if you don't know this already, it says you are blinded by it and see it as something different. Not really worth while putting anything up we would only end up agreeing to disagree.

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Hmm. Well, I can't respond to points that you aren't willing to make, so I guess that's it, then.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

The majority of people I know also uphold the Church's authority, which is the thing that allowed these abuses to be covered up.

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People by appearance seem to be upholding the churches authority, what they appear to be doing and what they believe is often two different things. That George W Bush wasn't thrown out of office during his term does this mean every US citizen upheld Bush's authority?

The people on the bottom cannot be held responsible because the people at the top are idiots and will not listen.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

It's a selling point to come up with a methodology that isn't generally accepted?

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Some of the greatest ideas in engineering have come about by people not following the status quo and doing something completely different.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

No, they generally do admit it. Casting dispersions on the quality of another engineer's work without good reason is usually considered an ethical breach (or at least it is under the law where I am).

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I can see you do not operate on the world stage. Every country has different standards. What can be designed and sent to China has a different value to what is accepted in Australia. Most things which are designed for the Canadian or US market do not reach Austalian standards. This doesn't mean the Canadian or US standards are bad, it just means different things need to be taken into consideration.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

No, they don't. "Going over the top" would be a very bad thing to do when designing a building's structure.

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As is underdesigning, buildings have a tendency to fall down.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

Getting back on point, there are claims that are false and claims that are true. Stylistic decisions about building design are fuzzy and subject to interpretation, but claims like "these condoms have been deliberately infected with HIV" are either factually true, period, or factually false, period. This is not a question of interpretation. There is not some other way to "skin this cat" to change the truth or falsehood of the statement.

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Ah the perfect world scenario. Engineering is pretty much an exact science, this often distorts a persons logic as they apply the same principle to everything. Sorry to say the world isn't perfect, and just like engineers envisage projects differently, so to do others see things differently.

Without exact evidence one way or the other, I cannot even begin to know whether the accusations this person is making is true or false. Some people can make up their minds just by reading a story.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

Hmm. Well, I can't respond to points that you aren't willing to make, so I guess that's it, then.

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I would suggest it is.

footprints said:

People by appearance seem to be upholding the churches authority, what they appear to be doing and what they believe is often two different things. That George W Bush wasn't thrown out of office during his term does this mean every US citizen upheld Bush's authority?

The people on the bottom cannot be held responsible because the people at the top are idiots and will not listen.




Some of the greatest ideas in engineering have come about by people not following the status quo and doing something completely different.




I can see you do not operate on the world stage. Every country has different standards. What can be designed and sent to China has a different value to what is accepted in Australia. Most things which are designed for the Canadian or US market do not reach Austalian standards. This doesn't mean the Canadian or US standards are bad, it just means different things need to be taken into consideration.




As is underdesigning, buildings have a tendency to fall down.




Ah the perfect world scenario. Engineering is pretty much an exact science, this often distorts a persons logic as they apply the same principle to everything. Sorry to say the world isn't perfect, and just like engineers envisage projects differently, so to do others see things differently.

Without exact evidence one way or the other, I cannot even begin to know whether the accusations this person is making is true or false. Some people can make up their minds just by reading a story.




I would suggest it is.

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But people cannot just walk out of their country,
and stop paying their taxes.

The people at the bottom of the rc church are it's pillars.
No one is forcing them to uphold this institution.
If the people at the top are idiots who won't listen...
why uphold them at all?

footprints said:

People by appearance seem to be upholding the churches authority, what they appear to be doing and what they believe is often two different things. That George W Bush wasn't thrown out of office during his term does this mean every US citizen upheld Bush's authority?

The people on the bottom cannot be held responsible because the people at the top are idiots and will not listen.

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Yes, it does... to the extent that they're responsible.

When evaluating their actions, we need to account for both the value of maintaining the rule of law as well as the resulting cost of doing so. Personally, I value the rule of law highly enough to say that the American people chose the best option by not overthrowing him.

footprints said:

Some of the greatest ideas in engineering have come about by people not following the status quo and doing something completely different.

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How many great ideas in engineering came out of people doing things on the basis of ideas that were factually false?

footprints said:

I can see you do not operate on the world stage.

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You see falsely.

footprints said:

As is underdesigning, buildings have a tendency to fall down.

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"Going over the top" in one's decisions about the strength of structural steel is underdesigning.

footprints said:

Ah the perfect world scenario. Engineering is pretty much an exact science, this often distorts a persons logic as they apply the same principle to everything. Sorry to say the world isn't perfect, and just like engineers envisage projects differently, so to do others see things differently.

Without exact evidence one way or the other, I cannot even begin to know whether the accusations this person is making is true or false. Some people can make up their minds just by reading a story.

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Hold on one minute: are you saying you're actually undecided about whether there really is a conspiracy to kill Africans by deliberately infecting condoms with HIV?

UltraViolet said:

But people cannot just walk out of their country,
and stop paying their taxes.

The people at the bottom of the rc church are it's pillars.
No one is forcing them to uphold this institution.
If the people at the top are idiots who won't listen...
why uphold them at all?

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I am sorry to say Ultraviolet, people can just walk et al out of their country, and they can stop paying their taxes. Whether they choose to and whether they do is another matter.

People walk out on their own countries every day, it is why countries have immigration policies and we have people known as refugees. Many people refuse to pay taxes on principle, others choose not to pay taxes because they gain the money illegally.

If everybody except for the politicians and military in the US stood up in one voice and said, get our troops home today, give the order to pull out today, and were sincere in their voice and united in their stance, all troops would be pulled back today. Trouble is, not all people in the US agree with this, some want the US troops there for a variety of positive and negative reasons.

The same applies to religions, they might see what the leaders are doing is wrong, but they can see the greater good of what can be achieved. They know of the greater good, because they have lived it and experience it every day of their lives.

Look at it this way - consider these two cases:

A bishop, knowing that people will rely on his word, declares that condoms are deliberately infected with HIV, despite the fact that he did know or ought to have known that this was false. As a result, people die.

An engineer, knowing that people will rely on his word, declares that a walkway can hold the load mandated by the building code, despite the fact that he ought to have known that this was false. As a result, people die.

Where is the moral difference between these two cases?

Keep in mind that in the second case, the engineers involved were found criminally negligent.

Storm said:

I think, like any human institution, it's a mixed bag.

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Storm, I'm going to come at your statements from a different angle than I've seen so far in this thread, but I'd like to add that I totally agree with the above statement and everything I say about this subject should be seen in that light.

I honestly don't think the Catholic Church is any worse in this than anyone else. It's just that they're expected to be better.

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I have a problem with this logic. "Not being worse than other people" isn't the standard by which anyone should be measuring good or evil. Just because everyone else is killing jews doesn't mean that I'm any less to blame if I start killing jews.

footprints said:

I am sorry to say Ultraviolet, people can just walk et al out of their country, and they can stop paying their taxes. Whether they choose to and whether they do is another matter.

People walk out on their own countries every day, it is why countries have immigration policies and we have people known as refugees. Many people refuse to pay taxes on principle, others choose not to pay taxes because they gain the money illegally.

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It's been a long time since the Catholic Church had the power to throw people in prison for not tithing.

And your right to leave your own country is contingent upon being accepted by another country. AFAIK, there are no countries that consider people from the US to be refugees. It's even been tried a few times here in Canada by defectors from the US military.

footprints said:

I am sorry to say Ultraviolet, people can just walk et al out of their country, and they can stop paying their taxes. Whether they choose to and whether they do is another matter.

People walk out on their own countries every day, it is why countries have immigration policies and we have people known as refugees. Many people refuse to pay taxes on principle, others choose not to pay taxes because they gain the money illegally.

If everybody except for the politicians and military in the US stood up in one voice and said, get our troops home today, give the order to pull out today, and were sincere in their voice and united in their stance, all troops would be pulled back today. Trouble is, not all people in the US agree with this, some want the US troops there for a variety of positive and negative reasons.

The same applies to religions, they might see what the leaders are doing is wrong, but they can see the greater good of what can be achieved. They know of the greater good, because they have lived it and experience it every day of their lives.

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Most of us can't even afford to move across town, honey.

Leaving a church? pfft. easy.
Just stop going.

Imagist said:

Storm, I'm going to come at your statements from a different angle than I've seen so far in this thread, but I'd like to add that I totally agree with the above statement and everything I say about this subject should be seen in that light.

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I appreciate that.

I have a problem with this logic. "Not being worse than other people" isn't the standard by which anyone should be measuring good or evil. Just because everyone else is killing jews doesn't mean that I'm any less to blame if I start killing jews.

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Well, I would, myself, prefer to measure the RCC's harm against its good, but nobody's provided a defense, and I'm uninformed. So, I settle for the context I've got.

Also, context matters. Auto's OP described them as "a vast criminal conspiracy," among other epithets, and I think that places the debate firmly into the context of human institutions. It's not ideal, but I think it's valid.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

Yes, it does... to the extent that they're responsible.

When evaluating their actions, we need to account for both the value of maintaining the rule of law as well as the resulting cost of doing so. Personally, I value the rule of law highly enough to say that the American people chose the best option by not overthrowing him.

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You say that the american people chose the best option by not overthrowing him, many would disagree with that opinion.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

How many great ideas in engineering came out of people doing things on the basis of ideas that were factually false?

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Factually false and what was accepted as good engineering practice at the time are two different things. Most engineers around the world said the Australian snowy mountain scheme would fail, gave facts and figures how two tunnels dug from either side side of a mountain range would miss each other by miles, the end resultant is they didn't miss, albeit were a fraction of an inch out from aligning perfectly.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

You see falsely.

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Then you should know that even between countries people see things differently for very different and valid reasons. That your point was moot.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

"Going over the top" in one's decisions about the strength of structural steel is underdesigning.

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I suppose you could look at over designing something is underdesigning something. That to make something twice as strong as it needs to be with all environmental factors taken into consideration so as not to have a leaning tower of Pisa effect, would be considered as underdesigned.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

Hold on one minute: are you saying you're actually undecided about whether there really is a conspiracy to kill Africans by deliberately infecting condoms with HIV?

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What I am saying is I do not know. In Australia the government dropped nuclear bombs near aboriginal communities just to gauge the effect. I do happen to know for a fact that many pharmaceutical companies use lower socio economic societies to test new drugs on. The world was once turned upside down by Thalidomide.

What I am saying is I need evidence, not some story. That you are right, either it did happen or it didn't happen.

footprints said:

Sexual abuse: This scenario is well documented in prison systems, a persons perception is forced down one line due to the constant companionship the inmates keep. Members of the church are above all, human and so prone to the same human characteristics as everybody else.

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Not to rain on your parade, but when the only comparison you can make that comes out positive is to the prison system, you've already lost the argument.

Co-operation with the Nazi's, many people did this, French, Polish et al, it is surprising what people will do when faced with extinction. Going along with a person or group to save your own skin, doesn't mean the person or group aligns with the aggressors thinking or belief. In many ways it is the intelligent thing to do.

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If you believe the right things and do the wrong things, that doesn't make you a good person, it just makes you a hypocrite in addition to being a bad person.

As for the rest, it is sort of like taking all modern day americans to court because their forefathers adopted slavery or holding a man responsible for belting his wife 100 years ago when it was a legal practice. The catholic church broke no laws during the time period of their darkest age, and even today when they promote their rubbish (which many catholics don't buy anyway) pertaining to condoms and AID's they are still not breaking any law.

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Just because it is legal does not mean it is moral.

UltraViolet said:

Most of us can't even afford to move across town, honey.

Leaving a church? pfft. easy.
Just stop going.

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It doesn't take money to move across town. It takes a person to just get up and move and trust that everything will eventually work out for the best.

I would suggest the same excuses you are using for not moving across town, people in congregations use similar excuses for not doing something either.

footprints said:

It doesn't take money to move across town. It takes a person to just get up and move and trust that everything will eventually work out for the best.

I would suggest the same excuses you are using for not moving across town, people in congregations use similar excuses for not doing something either.

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Tell that to the landlord that wants first months rent
and a month and a half security.

footprints said:

I suppose you could look at over designing something is underdesigning something. That to make something twice as strong as it needs to be with all environmental factors taken into consideration so as not to have a leaning tower of Pisa effect, would be considered as underdesigned.

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When you assume that the strength of steel is higher than it is, you haven't overdesigned, you've underdesigned.

footprints said:

What I am saying is I do not know. In Australia the government dropped nuclear bombs near aboriginal communities just to gauge the effect. I do happen to know for a fact that many pharmaceutical companies use lower socio economic societies to test new drugs on. The world was once turned upside down by Thalidomide.

What I am saying is I need evidence, not some story. That you are right, either it did happen or it didn't happen.

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Would you also say that a public figure has a responsibility to confirm that the story is true before giving it publicly?

This issue is bigger than just condoms. The claim that Europeans are out to kill Africans undermines all sorts of endeavours. After all, if you think that a group have been infecting your condoms, would you accept food aid from that group when you're in the midst of a famine?

Actually the amount of money you will save not going to church,
might just help you move across town.


If you HONESTLY think it is just as easy to move to another country,
as it is to stop attending/participating in a church...
you are living on another planet entirely.

footprints said:

It doesn't take money to move across town. It takes a person to just get up and move and trust that everything will eventually work out for the best.

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Out of curiosity, do you still live with your parents?

I can't see how anyone who's actually lived on their own would be able to make a statement like that sincerely.