Do You Need to Go to Heaven?

Ave Maria said:

Well, you certainly need to go to Heaven if you don't want to spend eternity tormented in the fires of Hell.

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Caladan said:

The Hebrew word Shammaying (שמיי&#1501, or Sky. is a combination of two words:
Sham and Mayim. literally means 'Water there', Sham being there, and Mayim being water.
the meaning is of course, the description of the blue sky, 'water there'.

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tumbleweed41 said:

Missed that, Thanks

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tumbleweed41 said:

raqia, which is translated as firmament, literally means an extended surface or expanse.

mayim, translated as waters, can mean waters, urine, pool, or even loins. Obviously, in Genesis 1:7, it is referring simply to waters.

tachath, translated as under, can mean underneath, below, instead of.

al, translated as above, can mean upon, above or over.

And God made the extended surface or expanse. and divided the waters which were underneath, below or instead of the extended surface or expanse.from the waters which were upon, above or over the extended surface or expanse. and it was so.


Where would you say the waters above were located?

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Mr Cheese said:

Just because heaven is "within you" does this mean it is an "earthly" kingdom?

From a mystical stance, you would "be on earth" but not at the same time...
as to be in heaven would be to experience more than we do with our mundane senses....

to be in the world, but not of it...

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sandy whitelinger said:

Um, He said The Kingdom of God was within you, not the Kingdom of Heaven. Luke 17:21 KJV

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Mr Cheese said:

same difference....in this case, my argument doesnt change...

there is nowhere to go...

You are already there...


...

3. Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you.
When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are the poverty."

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sandy whitelinger said:

Above the firmament.

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Caladan said:

The Hebrew word Shammaying (שמיי&#1501, or Sky. is a combination of two words:
Sham and Mayim. literally means 'Water there', Sham being there, and Mayim being water.
the meaning is of course, the description of the blue sky, 'water there'.

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sandy whitelinger said:

Actually the debate for that centers around the fact that Heaven is a place and God isn't, ergo, the Kingdom's of God and Heaven are different. It's a bunny trail to the OP which I don't want to get into here.

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tumbleweed41 said:

Caladan interpreted it better than I.

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Mr Cheese said:

God isnt in heaven.....

oh kay....

well we have that in gnosticism....

but that is outside the boundaries of this.

Nevertheless.....

the place of heaven, and the place of God are both here....
just not the here we perceive normally..... is what I am saying

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sandy whitelinger said:

Ok. Now back to our regularly scheduled programming. Is what Jesus sys about going to Heaven more important than what He says about being accepted by God?

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sandy whitelinger said:

Is going to heaven what the real question should be? The real question should be are you going to be accepted by God. It is then more important to ask what Jesus has to say about that than what He had to say about how to get to heaven. The actual residence of your eternity might actually be here on earth.

This whole question of whether you will "go to Heaven" is a red herring because it's not a question of going to Heaven but being accepted by God and living forever in His Kingdom. What did Jesus say about it?
[1] There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
[2] The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
[3] Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
[4] Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
[5] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
[6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
[7] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
[8] The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
[9] Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
[10] Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
[11] Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
[12] If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
[13] And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
[14] And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
[15] That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
[16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
[17] For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
[18] He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(John 3:3-18 KJV)

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sandy whitelinger said:

I'm not so sure for Christians either. For example if after the end of this world there is going to be a new heaven and a new earth then what is the new earth for. There are a number of Christian denomonations that believe the saved, God's people, will live on earth and not in heaven. So is going to heaven the issue or being accepted by God?

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6But (G)the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "(H)DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down),

7or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE (I)ABYSS?' (that is, to (J)bring Christ up from the dead)."
8But what does it say? "(K)THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9that (L)if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and (M)believe in your heart that (N)God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

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9-10ths_Penguin said:

Paul seemed to be rather down on the idea of worrying about going to Heaven:



The message I get from this isn't so much "you'll be saved, but maybe not in Heaven", but more "trust in God and don't worry about it."

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Muffled said:

The question should be: Is life on earth optional for someone in Heaven in the resurrection of the dead?

Jesus evidently thinks it ought to be our goal because He has us pray for it:

Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so on earth.

Heaven and The Kingdom of God are acceptable to God, so it stands to reason that Heaven and The Kingdom of God can still be the valid question. Although I agree that the Kingdom of God exists on earth, at this time it also co-exists with the Kingdom of Darkness. God is not going to be pleased until The Kingdom of God on earth is the only kingdom on earth.

Heaven remains an issue for those who die. The question is whether a person should return to a new life on earth or go to Heaven and a corrollary to that is whether people know how to get to Heaven or whether they are permitted a new life on earth.

And then there are those like me and Jesus who came out of the ivory palaces of Heaven into a world of woe, when only our great love could motivate us to go. I suppose some people who are enthralled with physical life would choose to come back to it rather than go to Heaven despite and maybe because of the evil that is permitted but how does one who hates evil leave the perfection of Heaven? You could not pay me a thousand lifetimes in the Kingdom of God to get me to come to a lifetime in the evil cycle if it were not for the great need of others to hear of God's salvation.

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sandy whitelinger said:

I think the case can be made that the kingdom of God is a spiritual kingdom and the Kingdom of Heaven is a physical kingdom and are not the same. Jesus says this in Matthew 8:
[11] And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
[12] But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Being that I believe in eternal security (ie. once saved always saved) it seems that the Kingdom of Heaven does not come through salvation because there are people who are cast out of it.

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Muffled said:

There is no evidence for this being different from the Kingdom of God. The rederence in Mat appears to refer to The Kingdom of God as an earthly representation, however in the rapture the Kingdom is not on earth but in the sky for which heaven is sometimes a synonymn.

The reference of "children of the Kingdom" here most likely refers to the descedants of those Jews who believed God in the past. The rederence re-appears in the parable that has to do with the rapture: Mt 22:13 Then the king said to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and cast him out into the outer darkness; there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. The people this refers to were gathered but refused to acknowledge Jesus as Savior. No doubt there are Jews stubborn enough to do just that.

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sandy whitelinger said:

You mean other than the evidence that the Kingdom of Heaven is a physical kingom and the Kingom of God is spiritual?

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