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Do You Need to Go to Heaven?

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
Is going to heaven what the real question should be? The real question should be are you going to be accepted by God. It is then more important to ask what Jesus has to say about that than what He had to say about how to get to heaven. The actual residence of your eternity might actually be here on earth.

This whole question of whether you will "go to Heaven" is a red herring because it's not a question of going to Heaven but being accepted by God and living forever in His Kingdom. What did Jesus say about it?
[1] There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
[2] The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
[3] Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
[4] Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
[5] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
[6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
[7] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
[8] The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
[9] Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
[10] Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
[11] Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
[12] If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
[13] And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
[14] And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
[15] That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
[16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
[17] For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
[18] He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(John 3:3-18 KJV)
 

Just_me_Mike

Well-Known Member
Is going to heaven what the real question should be? The real question should be are you going to be accepted by God. It is then more important to ask what Jesus has to say about that than what He had to say about how to get to heaven. The actual residence of your eternity might actually be here on earth.

This whole question of whether you will "go to Heaven" is a red herring because it's not a question of going to Heaven but being accepted by God and living forever in His Kingdom. What did Jesus say about it?
[1] There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
[2] The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
[3] Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
[4] Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
[5] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
[6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
[7] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
[8] The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
[9] Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
[10] Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
[11] Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
[12] If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
[13] And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
[14] And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
[15] That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
[16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
[17] For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
[18] He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(John 3:3-18 KJV)
For Christians yes, but to everyone else, this is meaningless... So far as eternal destination is concerned.
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
People who truly know and have some genuine understanding of Judaism know that there is no heaven in Judaism. the Jewish religion at its core has always revolved on this world and its so called boring details.
Jesus, a Jewish man. who grew out of Jewish culture, and preached a flavor of Judaism, might have known what he was talking about when he said:
'Neither will they say, Lo here! or lo there! for behold, the kingdom of God is within you'
 

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
For Christians yes, but to everyone else, this is meaningless... So far as eternal destination is concerned.
I'm not so sure for Christians either. For example if after the end of this world there is going to be a new heaven and a new earth then what is the new earth for. There are a number of Christian denomonations that believe the saved, God's people, will live on earth and not in heaven. So is going to heaven the issue or being accepted by God?
 

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
People who truly know and have some genuine understanding of Judaism know that there is no heaven in Judaism. the Jewish religion at its core has always revolved on this world and its so called boring details.
Jesus, a Jewish man. who grew out of Jewish culture, and preached a flavor of Judaism, might have known what he was talking about when he said:
'Neither will they say, Lo here! or lo there! for behold, the kingdom of God is within you'
Exactly. When Jesus was preaching the Kingdom of Heaven, it was an earthly Kingdom.
 

Just_me_Mike

Well-Known Member
People who truly know and have some genuine understanding of Judaism know that there is no heaven in Judaism. the Jewish religion at its core has always revolved on this world and its so called boring details.
Jesus, a Jewish man. who grew out of Jewish culture, and preached a flavor of Judaism, might have known what he was talking about when he said:
'Neither will they say, Lo here! or lo there! for behold, the kingdom of God is within you'

Exactly. When Jesus was preaching the Kingdom of Heaven, it was an earthly Kingdom.
And you both would do well to not dwell on one verse, because Jesus also said his kingdom is not of this world.
 

Green Kepi

Active Member
In Matthew 4:17-Jesus preached, "Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is near." Then Matt. 6:10 - it still hadn't arrived; Matt. 7:21 - still not here; Matt. 10:7 - not yet; Matt. 16:18 - not yet; John 18:36 - still not yet; Luke 23:51 - not yet; Mark 1:14-15 and Mark 9:1 - no; then in Acts 1:3...He says, "Go wait for me. Then in Acts 2:47 - something has changed...Acts 14:22 - its here. Notice something happened in Acts 2...all the time before this - it was future tense...then it turned present tense. Hebrew 1:8 and numerous other places, it has Jesus ruling over His Kingdom...which is the Church.
 

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
And you both would do well to not dwell on one verse, because Jesus also said his kingdom is not of this world.
This get into another debate, which actually relies on other verses, as to whether the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God are the same thing; whether one is spiritual and one is physical. It still boils down to whether the real issue is whether or not God accepts you and not where you will dwell. It is that acceptance or denial that determines your location for eternity.
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
Interesting. Where was the deep?
The deep, or te·ho·vm indicates 'depth of the waters', as in ...
Genesis 1:2
And the earth was without form and absolutely empty(va·vo·hu) and darkness was upon the face of the deep(te·ho·vm) And the Spirit of Elohim moved upon the face of the waters

Genesis 7:11
In the six hundredth year of Noah's life in the second month the seventeenth __ day of the month the same day were all the fountains (ma'·ye·not) of the deep (te·ho·vm) broken up and the floodgates of the sky (ha·sha·ma·yim) were opened.
 

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
Well, you certainly need to go to Heaven if you don't want to spend eternity tormented in the fires of Hell. ;)
But the questionis, are you really going to heaven, or hell for that matter. Will the saved live here on earth? And hell is not reserved for people, it's the lake of fire where the lost and hell will wind up.
 

sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member
The deep, or te·ho·vm indicates 'depth of the waters', as in ...
Genesis 1:2
And the earth was without form and absolutely empty(va·vo·hu) and darkness was upon the face of the deep(te·ho·vm) And the Spirit of Elohim moved upon the face of the waters

Genesis 7:11
In the six hundredth year of Noah's life in the second month the seventeenth __ day of the month the same day were all the fountains (ma'·ye·not) of the deep (te·ho·vm) broken up and the floodgates of the sky (ha·sha·ma·yim) were opened.
Ok, so when the firmamaent was created in 1:7 where were the waters above located?
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
And you both would do well to not dwell on one verse, because Jesus also said his kingdom is not of this world.
Perhaps your interpretation of what he meant by it is too other worldly.
I'm a man of physical hard facts. if you can prove to me that what he was talking about is something which exists beyond the physical world, I'll listen. but if its only based on scriptural verses, it does not meet my standards.
furthermore, Jesus preached his Jewish philosophy to Jews (much like other Jewish rabbis and teachers at the time). I find it hard to believe that he built a new theory out of thin air and expected people as stubborn and thorough as the Jews to simply swallow it.
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
Ok, so when the firmamaent was created in 1:7 where were the waters above located?

raqia, which is translated as firmament, literally means an extended surface or expanse.

mayim, translated as waters, can mean waters, urine, pool, or even loins. Obviously, in Genesis 1:7, it is referring simply to waters.

tachath, translated as under, can mean underneath, below, instead of.

al, translated as above, can mean upon, above or over.

And God made the extended surface or expanse. and divided the waters which were underneath, below or instead of the extended surface or expanse.from the waters which were upon, above or over the extended surface or expanse. and it was so.


Where would you say the waters above were located?
 

Mr Cheese

Well-Known Member
Exactly. When Jesus was preaching the Kingdom of Heaven, it was an earthly Kingdom.

Just because heaven is "within you" does this mean it is an "earthly" kingdom?

From a mystical stance, you would "be on earth" but not at the same time...
as to be in heaven would be to experience more than we do with our mundane senses....

to be in the world, but not of it...
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
Where would you say the waters above were located?
The Hebrew word Shammaying (שמיים), or Sky. is a combination of two words:
Sham and Mayim. literally means 'Water there', Sham being there, and Mayim being water.
the meaning is of course, the description of the blue sky, 'water there'.
 
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