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The unjust laws of the west in general

Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
I agree with Eselam. I live in Canada and like other western countries we don't like our households getting too large. Our "family values" have changed to a more "civilized" way of shipping our parents away to old folks homes and our children to daycare. That way both parents can work to have more cars and bigger televisions. Of course that is a generalization but this practice doesn't happen in most other countries.

Yes, its the phenomenon of Individualisation vs Collectivism. Unfortunately in a number of western nations there has been a growth of individualistic consciousness. It is something that I do not like very much. Every culture has its good and bad sides. I hope that we can all try to see both sides and not just the bad.
 

Ba'al

Active Member
What also strikes me as ironic...Jesus preached charity and looking after the underprivileged. Notice how Christians nowadays vote conservative or republican, the parties that donate the least to the poor and social programs.
 

MSizer

MSizer
I agree with Eselam. I live in Canada and like other western countries we don't like our households getting too large. Our "family values" have changed to a more "civilized" way of shipping our parents away to old folks homes and our children to daycare. That way both parents can work to have more cars and bigger televisions. Of course that is a generalization but this practice doesn't happen in most other countries.

I agree that this seems to be happening more often, and I agree that it's not admirable (and a lot of people really aren't thinking past their bums aobut life) but how is it unjust? Each person needs to make their own life decisions. If a person wants to stress the heck out of him or herself to pay for a big car and house, clearly a snowball thing, well, I think it's sad, but it's thier life. What's unjust about that? (now of course the manufacturers of the products we buy probably support questionable practices, but that's a different issue I think)
 

gzusfrk

Christian
What also strikes me as ironic...Jesus preached charity and looking after the underprivileged. Notice how Christians nowadays vote conservative or republican, the parties that donate the least to the poor and social programs.
you bit off a big old hunk there.
 
Very interesting and worth considering, thanks. Although it's worth considering the fact that religion was really the main deciding factor, not surprising given the fact that no one passes around a collection plate or is asked to tithe 10% of their income at a liberal rally. It might not be significant, but it's also worth considering how much of the charitable giving goes to the operation of the religious institutions and their missionary work, how much goes to mega-churches and scams, how much goes to counter-productive religious "education" or abstinence-only programs against HIV, versus how much goes to the poor per se. Do liberals give to the poor less or do they give smarter? (A convenient question coming from a liberal, I admit.)
 
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Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Not sure there's any way of really measuring that, Spinkles. Just as there's no real way of measuring the true effectiveness of whatever causes liberals give to, generally speaking. Conservatives don't run the only scams in town.

Maybe, JUST MAYBE, "religious people" give more because they truly believe it's a directive based in their faith to help those less fortunate - rather than just obedience to a plea for tithes.

The most hands-on, effective charities I've ever volunteered my time to have been based in either a religious organization, or funded by private companies owned by Christians. Of course, that's just my personal experience and doesn't prove anything, but it determines where I place my time and money.

We should all do our homework on whatever non profit we donate to. I guess that's the bottom line.
 

Gharib

I want Khilafah back
It's an interesting debate and I don't know the answer, it's somewhat of a judgment call for each person and a matter of looking at examples of how these policies turn out, but I don't think the general Islamic view you are talking about is incompatible with anything Western, many Western socialists or left-leaning people (not all Muslims certainly) have advocated such things and won them to some degree or another. You're not really talking about Islam vs. the West you're talking about socialism vs. capitalism.

although i agree with this post, i want to point out that what i said in that that post and more specifically in that statement, was my personal perspective based on my personal experience. islam does not teach that muslims must choose a lower standard of life over a higher standard of life. that was just my personal view on the matter. and for you as well as many other people it may be harder to answer that due to not having tried both sides (lower standard and higher standard of living).
 

Gharib

I want Khilafah back
.

Eselam, I think you are looking at this a little too simplistically. I don't personally live in Australia, but I'm sure that those taxes you and every other citizen of the country pays are going to good use. There are a million things that have to get paid for by the government, and those things generally aren't cheap. Add that to the fact that Australia is almost the size of the continental US with not even 1/10th of the population, and that means that you're going have to pay a good bit to build and maintain all that infrastructure. It's just not so simple as "The government took X amount of money from me, and only directly gave me Y amount back. The government must be un-just and oppressive." I think maybe you should read more into the economic and budgetary situation of the Australian government before you criticize the tax laws...

Just my 2 cents. :D

i'm not saying that i know exactly how the government is spending that money or anything like that. but if you make a comparison, Australia (or any other non islamic country) to the Ottoman empire, you would see what i'm talking about. the ottoman empire ruled for about 1000 years and it never took money from it's citizens appart from the non muslims living under it's rule who are obligated to pay a tax kind of fee which i do not know how much it is. however it ruled pretty much half of the world from malaysia/indonesia to the middle east, central asia, northern africa, the balkans and south west europe and still it lasted for so long and had everything it needed.
 

Gharib

I want Khilafah back
No idea where you got that idea from. Yes at 18 I moved out, to go to university, not only have my parents never asked for rent but they pay the rent for the flat I live in. This is common among all my friends I don't know anyone who is expected to pay there own rent.

this is actually quite surprising because i had never heard of so many cases to be like this.

i want to ask you a question Panda. see how your parents have helped you out, what about you returning the favour? i mean when your parents get old (or if they are) are you going to help them also and invite them to stay with you and your wife and kids or are they going to have to go to a retirement home and be taken care of by other people? is anyone of your friends thinking of doing this? i'm curious about this, because some old folks will say i want my own space, while at the same time they need someone else to take care of them. how does this work in the non islamic world more specifically in your bringing up and your family values?
 

Gharib

I want Khilafah back
In my experience this is a characteristic of wealthy families. Some wealthier parents in the U.S. could support their kids forever, but the idea is that even if your parents can support you, you should try to make it on your own and many kids in the U.S. can make it on their own.

i am happy that you made this statement because i want to ask you too the same question i asked Panda. if say you are wealthy and have no economical problems would you take your parents to live with you? why? why not?

what about if you weren't so rich?
 

Perfect Circle

Just Browsing
i'm not saying that i know exactly how the government is spending that money or anything like that. but if you make a comparison, Australia (or any other non islamic country) to the Ottoman empire, you would see what i'm talking about. the ottoman empire ruled for about 1000 years and it never took money from it's citizens appart from the non muslims living under it's rule who are obligated to pay a tax kind of fee which i do not know how much it is. however it ruled pretty much half of the world from malaysia/indonesia to the middle east, central asia, northern africa, the balkans and south west europe and still it lasted for so long and had everything it needed.

I'm not sure where you're getting this notion that the Ottoman empire didn't tax it's citizens, but that's just not true. Muslims, as well as Christians and Jews, all had to pay a taxes. It varied depending on your socio-economic and religious status, but Muslim citizens of the Ottoman empire definitely weren't exempt from taxes.

From Wikipedia
Economic history of the Ottoman Empire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ottoman bureaucratic and military expenditure was raised by taxation, generally from the agrarian population.[47]
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
1) I don't see how you draw a connection between taxation and the West's (real or perceived) lack of familial bonds.

2) My father recently moved back in with his mother to take care of her. He pays no rent, but does handle most of the expenses. The arrangement has been good for both of them, I think.

Also, though it's a long way off, I hope that when Papa retires, he comes here to Portland so that I can take care of him.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
2) My father recently moved back in with his mother to take care of her. He pays no rent, but does handle most of the expenses. The arrangement has been good for both of them, I think.
This is the exact scenario I am in. For example, I could have stayed in Vancouver and made a lot of money, but at a certain stage other things become more important in life.

When my dad died 2-1/2 years ago, my mom, who is 77 was left to manage her large piece of property on her own. She simply cannot manage it all, plus she isn't getting younger. My moving to the island, has cost me much, but the rewards for doing so is that I am not so much "living with my mom", but rather, I am helping a dear friend stay where she wants to be. So far, we have had no problems of any note and its been two years now. Ok... there was that argument we had when I wouldn't let her climb up on the roof... but otherwise we get along just great.
 

Panda

42?
Premium Member
this is actually quite surprising because i had never heard of so many cases to be like this.

This is the norm for most people, what you were talking about in general seems to be the exception.

i want to ask you a question Panda. see how your parents have helped you out, what about you returning the favour? i mean when your parents get old (or if they are) are you going to help them also and invite them to stay with you and your wife and kids or are they going to have to go to a retirement home and be taken care of by other people? is anyone of your friends thinking of doing this? i'm curious about this, because some old folks will say i want my own space, while at the same time they need someone else to take care of them. how does this work in the non islamic world more specifically in your bringing up and your family values?

I don't think anyone has thought about that yet at all. However it will depend on the situation, it will depend on both my parents mental and physical needs what happens to them when they get older. They may need full time profesional health care or they may be able to live in their own home like my 86 year old gran and be totally independant and not need any help.
 

Gharib

I want Khilafah back
Hi Eselam I have only just seen this thread now.
I think that some of your comments are unfair and lack cultural understanding. Firstly, Australia has one of the smallest populations of homeless people. Until the last government a few years ago changed some policies, people hardly even had to work to survive. My parents didn't work for years and with hardly any money we spent years travelling around.

i do agree but the one thing i never said was that australia has a great deal of homeless people. thats the more reason why they should be helped. they are not many. Rudd has money to give away and has no money to help the small number of homeless people.

I am 21 and I live at home with my parents. I have never had to pay rent. I know like two people who had to pay rent to their parents and that is because those families were big and the amount of rent they paid didnt hardly cover the expenses that the parents still spent for those children (the ones paying the rent who still didnt have to pay for their own food etc).

one of the differences you would notice if you compared a muslim family and a non muslim family (not of any particular faith) is that muslim parents work all their lives to provide everything for their kids, be it when they are 18, 21 or 25. where as the non muslim parents, in this case those of your friends, they want their children to pay rent due to one of the reasons being that they can not save any money to maybe have a holiday or what ever. so they are putting more love into their money than into their child. they love their holiday more than the child (talking about the lesser fortunate families). if your family for example was less fortunate, god forbid, the same thing would happen to you, god forbid also. in islam we do not send our parents to some retirement village but their child takes them into their own home. same with the child, he doesn't pay rent no matter what or how less fortunate and he takes care of his parents also no matter what when they get older unless ofcourse they need medical treatment and need to be in a hospital 24/7.

Old people are given pensions. Because of the global economy pensions will not be feasible to people who were born after 1960. That is why we have supperannuation. We save money during our working life so that we have enough to keep us alive when we retire.

but some people will never get any superanuation due to being physically dissable since birth or childhood. they too get payed the same as our pensioners. wouldn't they have to pay rent, have kids to take care of, have a wife or husband?

you as well as many other australians have probably never realised this, but this govenrment gives you only for survival and not for any saving or to have some extra money in your hands and pockets. if you haven't realised this, then here it is. but you must take into account that being homeless and having payed heaps amount of tax are different things. while for the governemtn they are the same, whether you have worked all your life or whether you were homeless all your life and never had a job, once you retire you are all equal. thats injustice right there.

What I do agree with is the situation with Aboriginal people. The government has tried many times to help them. Do you know that their welfare is far higher than what anybody else is paid? Do you know that they are granted financial support higher than anybody else who wants to study? The problem is that the government and social agencies have tried to help these communities from a western perspective and have not understood the needs or culture of the Aboriginal people. As a result, Aboriginal people have dismissed our efforts. They don't want to be westernised, they want their old culture back and their land. Unfortunately, I don't see that happening any time soon. I do hope that their situations improve though. I don't want to sound like a horrible person but it might interest you to know that there have been situations where Aboriginal communities have been given housing etc. and completely neglected it.

i do know all about what you have mentioned and i would like to say that, once again the govenrment is to blame. while the aboriginals have more benefits than the rest of us, it is quite observable that their lifestyle is different to what the govenrment wants them to live like. having said that, sometimes it is more wiser to just observe and land a hand when you see may be needed. just now the govenrment has made plans to build more homes in the territorry, and i can tell you that after some time it will happen again and again.

I wouldnt be too quick to judge only the western government on this particular scene of neglect.

i agree. every country neglects it's people, thats what man made laws do. in my home country and that of all other muslim majority countries, you would have found a big building, much like a hospital and a hotel at the same time. this was for the travellers. they could stay there to rest, get checked up, be cured of any illness and be on their way. all this was done for free paid by the govenrment of islam, taking note that the islamic govenrment does not tax muslims but only non muslims who live under it's rule. now thats just a small thing done only to help travellers, let alone talking about the help to the resident muslims, where all the laws were the same, no injustice done to no one. some old folks from my country still know where that hotel for travellers building is. i don't know if it still stands though.

if you compared the islamic laws to any of the western countries and it's laws you would see a big difference. but most of the time the laws of islam are labeled as backward or outdated, when infact you would be very surprised.

i will ba talking about another thing, i would appreciate your participation in this thread especially your views on my next question, which may be a little bit latter on.
 

Quoth The Raven

Half Arsed Muse
one of the differences you would notice if you compared a muslim family and a non muslim family (not of any particular faith) is that muslim parents work all their lives to provide everything for their kids, be it when they are 18, 21 or 25. where as the non muslim parents, in this case those of your friends, they want their children to pay rent due to one of the reasons being that they can not save any money to maybe have a holiday or what ever. so they are putting more love into their money than into their child. they love their holiday more than the child (talking about the lesser fortunate families). if your family for example was less fortunate, god forbid, the same thing would happen to you, god forbid also. in islam we do not send our parents to some retirement village but their child takes them into their own home. same with the child, he doesn't pay rent no matter what or how less fortunate and he takes care of his parents also no matter what when they get older unless ofcourse they need medical treatment and need to be in a hospital 24/7.
Perhaps it's a case not of 'loving the money more than the child', but more to do with the fact that it was not financially viable for the parents for the child to remain at home and not contribute.Maybe they just didn't have enough money to actually put food on the table for the number of adults that required it. You've just made a mighty leap there with the whole 'loving the money more' thing.
My children will certainly be contributing if they remain at home when they have jobs, purely because I don't think it teaches them a damn thing about or prepares them for the realities of living out in the world if they've got an entire pay packet of disposable income every week just because they're still living at home.
I also know a number of people who have insisted their children pay board...some have taken that money and put it aside and given it back when it was a deposit for a house, or the money for a car. Some have said,'Pay board or save half your wage.' to encourage their kids to save.

you as well as many other australians have probably never realised this, but this govenrment gives you only for survival and not for any saving or to have some extra money in your hands and pockets. if you haven't realised this, then here it is.
Bunkum...my ex in laws were living on a pension and managed to get a trip to Scotland every 2 years out of it. It's in the way you use it. I also had a great aunt who was quite well off, only on her pension.

but you must take into account that being homeless and having payed heaps amount of tax are different things. while for the governemtn they are the same, whether you have worked all your life or whether you were homeless all your life and never had a job, once you retire you are all equal. thats injustice right there.
Hang on, being considered equal is an injustice? :sarcastic
 

The Neo Nerd

Well-Known Member
another things that this law of taxation has brought to the west is the devision of the parent from his/her child. in Australia, most kids leave home immediately when they turn 18, if they live with their parents, they are forced to pay rent or get kicked out. however there is the rare case of the child not paying anything. but like i said, a rare case.

This is rubbish.

I'm australian and whilst i was made to pay board when i got a job i have a lot of friends who don't, my sister doesnt either.

As for the pension it has not always been $600 esalam is once again speaking out of his rectum.

If anybody would like to know what the laws actually are, not es's unresearched version please ask.

-Q
 

zenzero

Its only a Label
Friends,

The simple understanding is this.
Why does man who is above all humans and lives in a land where laws were made not by humans, should visit HELL [in his eyes] and then talk about the laws of that land or if he does not live there then why bother about human laws?
He should live in Heaven where laws are made by some one not human and beat his chest which is also not his.

Love & rgds
 
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