"non-denominational" churches

Uncertaindrummer · Jun 14, 2005

glasgowchick said:
Ok before I go any futher, I want to say I am sorry for all my nasty remarks and comments, It wasn't very Christ like and I apoligise..So no more smart remarks from this end...Ok Would you explain what a statue is if it is not an Idol or a graven image.. I have an Idea of the other Scriptures that would back your other scriptures up....So would you tell me how you see these other Scriptures...1kings19:18...what do you see that is going on here ? also hosea 13:2...

An idol is a statue or something that is worshipped in the place of God. A statue is just that. A statue. It is just really a 3D picture, actually. And Catholic do not worship them, we only use them to recall those great Saints who came before us.

Scuba Pete · Jun 14, 2005

Well UD,

you got an apology, but I am still waiting for mine! (Post 194)

Quiddity · Jun 14, 2005

Gee-Whilikers... ALL THAT from the spirit? Whodathunk? So, if you have big issues about using the Spirit to accomplish righteousness and to measure such, take it up with the Big Guy.

Using the Spirit to accomplish righteousness and to measure such? <--How did you get this out of my comments. I'm confused.

I don't recall me saying you can't use the Spirit to accomplish righteousness and to measure from it. Would you be so kind as to read my post again please.
I was talking about finding truth not becoming righteous, can you please clarify.

The least in Christ
~Victor

Quiddity · Jun 14, 2005

NetDoc said:
Yo Vic,

Most "misunderstandings" have their origins in disobedience.

In other words, disobedience occurs in the presence of a complete understanding of the truth. (Romans 1 & 2).

The Spirit is doing it's bit, but we are not listening to the Spirit. It has always been thus.

Then we are all in trouble. I don't completely disagree here ND, but I think that its disobedience along with a mixture of other things as I noted in my posts. Let's take this scenerio ND.
Let's say YOU have disobeyed and are not listening to the Spirit. How then do you get back on track? Possible answers:
1. Read the Scriptures <--at this point you would be reading them unguided without the Spirit because as I said you are not listening to the Spirit.
2. Start Listening to the Spirit <--How do you know when you start doing this again?

You see ND, your answers are always going to emcompass your circle of comfort that are subjective and no one outside of YOU can ever verify it. This is what caused the interpretation anarchy in the first place. Nice chat, ND but I cannot see the logic behind your position.

~Victor

Scuba Pete · Jun 14, 2005

First... one becomes righteous by finding the truth.

Second, you might want to study the correlation between the Spirit, humility and Grace.

glasgowchick · Jun 15, 2005

I never claimed that you said the bible was clear

Hi Victor, Im sorry for the miss understanding

I acknowlege that one must be assisted by God to understand the things of God

I also believe that too but we do have assistance from God, Acts 2:38 Peter said to them repent and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins and you will recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit verse 39 for the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off as many as the Lord our God calls to himself. God promised he would give us a helper and we recieve that helper, the Holy Spirit in Baptism so we can define the things of God and the Scripture..I believe that the bible is there for our guideness so we are able to determine the teachings of God and the teachings of men. The Scriptures tell us not to believe every spirit but to test them..those who say Jesus is the son of God are from God, Im sorry I know I am paraphasing here, but Im kind of in a rush. So in my experiance with the JWS, Yes they will claim Jesus is the son of God, But he is not the true God, only Jehovah is the true God, well where does that leave Jesus.Oh thats right according to JWS Jesus is a God with a small "g" So what does one have to do ? they have to take it and compare this teaching with Scripture..Well Scripture tells us in this instance that the word was with God and the word was God..So which teaching would we except. The JWS Or Scripture. And that is how we determine false teachers and false doctrine.Anything men bring to us we need to compare with what is written.The Scriptures say Michael was one of the chief angels, JWS Will tell you that michael is Jesus. The Scriptures tell us that Jesus was raised bodily but JWS Will tell you that he was raised a Spirit. Do you see where Im coming from..Jesus reffered to the Scripture when rebuking the pharisees for their traditions and condemmed them.So Scripture is there for our guide.Like I said Im in a bit of a rush but I will answer more when I get time..Thankyou for your time also..

Victor said:
Glasgowchick, thanks for taking the time to respond and the tone in which you presented it.

I never claimed that you said that the bible was clear. I was only clarifying terms like formally sufficient. I also don't deny that we can analyze and come to understand many things in the Bible. Lastly, (hope you reading this as well NetDoc) I acknowledge that one must be assisted by God to understand the things of God, including Scripture. But the question is not whether the Bible is perspicuous to unbelievers (it isnt), but whether its generally perspicuous to its target audience of faithful Christians. I submit that it is not, and that this is proved by your own experience, and by mine, and by that of countless millions of other Christians who all claim to believe only what the Bible says, but who believe that it says radically different things. If you submit to something to something outside the Bible (your elders) then that only proves my point that the Bible Alone is not sufficient enough to get you to understand and identify doctrine. I suppose my next question could be why you listen or submit to your elders? As Catholics we admit we do this because we believe God gave men the authority to interpret for the flock when the flock fails to respond to the Holy Spirit, or for whatever other reason like being stubborn, etc. We hold councils to settle doctrinal disputes and if needed the successor of Peter with stand and say "Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, (talking about himself) that by my mouth (who's mouth? Why not OUR mouth?) the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe."(Acts 15:7)

This is how we settle differences glasgowchick. Look at Christianity for the past 500 years as proof of this interpretation chaos. Not only has non-catholic christians not been able to arrive at a unified version of Christianity to which they can all subscribe, but theyve spawned dozens of different versions of Christianity, and they havent been able to advance a step in resolving any of the myriad theological conflicts that have arisen from their conflicting interpretations of Scripture. I think this casts considerable doubt on the truth of the original assertion that Bible Alone is a workable alternative to the Catholic system it attempted to replace.

Let me know your thoughts.

The least in Christ
~Victor

Quiddity · Jun 15, 2005

NetDoc said:
First... one becomes righteous by finding the truth.

Second, you might want to study the correlation between the Spirit, humility and Grace.

NetDoc and glasgowchick, thanks for the chat, but unfortunately the points I raised were not given any real solutions that work with real people. Your answers are common and as I said it's something I have heard several times. ND, finding truth does not gurantee you to become righteous. I have read tmaterial on the correlation between Grace and man's will. Do you have a source I can read further on?

Nice chat...

~Victor

Ori · Jun 15, 2005

Please get back...

Quiddity · Jun 15, 2005

orichalcum said:
Please get back...

???

~Victor

Scuba Pete · Jun 15, 2005

Well,

Being a "real person", I can assure that these solutions works very well for myself!

Grace is a much misunderstood concept.

While it is a "free gift of God", that is an attribute and not a definition. The word is far closer to it's more popular (secular) meaning than you might think.

Now go to www.BibleGateway.com and do a search for grace. You might come to the same realization that I did, that it means "becoming like God". When you read Paul's treatise on Grace in Romans, it really makes sense. This is not to say that we are to become perfect in this lifetime... but that we are undergoing a continual transformation of our mind and spirit.

II Corinthians 3:12 Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit. NIV

Finally, I agree with you... I was wrong. Merely finding the truth is not enough. You have to act on it and embrace it with all of your heart. Sorry for the confusion.

Matthew 13:44"The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field. When a man found it, he hid it again, and then in his joy went and sold all he had and bought that field.
45"Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant looking for fine pearls. 46When he found one of great value, he went away and sold everything he had and bought it. NIV

glasgowchick · Jun 16, 2005

Your answers are common and as I said it's something I have heard several times

Hi Victor, that may be so but as it is said in Acts17:2 and according to Pauls custom he went to them and for three sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures..I guess that is all we are trying to do also..thankyou for the chat..

Victor said:
NetDoc and glasgowchick, thanks for the chat, but unfortunately the points I raised were not given any real solutions that work with real people. Your answers are common and as I said it's something I have heard several times. ND, finding truth does not gurantee you to become righteous. I have read tmaterial on the correlation between Grace and man's will. Do you have a source I can read further on?

Nice chat...

~Victor

"non-denominational" churches

Uncertaindrummer

Active Member

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...

glasgowchick

Gives Glory to God !!!

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants

Ori

Angel slayer

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...

glasgowchick

Gives Glory to God !!!