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Jesus came not to bring peace?

Ori

Angel slayer
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword."

"He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."

So what is going on here then?
 

john313

warrior-poet
normally when i ask this to people they say for the first quote that he is referring to a spiritual sword, which could be a conceivable interpretation. But no one seems to have an answer for the second one.
 

Ori

Angel slayer
Maybe it's a case of someone putting words into his mouth, maybe to act as a representation of the Jewish view of the Messiah.
 

Lloyd

Member
I just wrote it all out and then accidently deleted it. I'm pissed, but now I'm determined to right the whole damn thing again, except this time more concise. These are my interpretations which have been informed by other people's interpretations as well.

The first one is saying that Jesus has come to clearly distinguish sinners from the righteous. Jesus offers teachings that seek to radically transform the way that people view God, themselves, foreigners, religion, and all kinds of other stuff. This is Jesus way of saying that he's not here to accomodate to the ways of the world, but to be uncompromising in his declaration of what is truly good in the God's eyes, not Man's. Thus, the sword here is just a metaphor.

As for the next one, right after Jesus says this the apostles bring him a couple of actual swords. Jesus responds saying "that is enough!" What Jesus is saying is kind of ambiguous, especialy in translation. A few lines down Jesus uses the same response, "that is enough!" to rebuke the apostles for cutting of the high priest's servant's ear. My interpretation is that in both instances Jesus is rebuking the apostles for interpreting Jesus' words as encouragement to physical violence.

Also, if Jesus was intending for these teachings to be taken literally, we might see some examples of physical violence on the part of the early Christian community. After all, they were closer to Jesus than any of us and they would have been acquainted with all the idiosyncrasies of Koine Greek that most people nowadays don't have. Reading this at the time, they don't appear to have taken it literally. I can't think of any examples from that time period of Christians violently defending themselves. Rather, we just see martyr after martyr willingly submit to execution. Nobody seemed to think revenge was in order.

So in sum, I believe that the sword is a metaphor for something, I'm not entirely sure what, but it is not an exhortation towards physical violence as the literal interpretation might imply.

That's my two cents.
 

njcl

Active Member
christ is saying he will cause war within families,groups,cities,countries by choosing the elect from them and as you have read father will hate son and mother will hate daughter,for what union has christ with belial,same thing
 

Lloyd

Member
njcl said:
christ is saying he will cause war within families,groups,cities,countries by choosing the elect from them and as you have read father will hate son and mother will hate daughter,for what union has christ with belial,same thing
That's just paraphrasing the Gospel. Those of us are well acquainted with the New Testament already know that. Can you elaborate?
 

njcl

Active Member
well any interpretation by anybody is pure speculation on their part and not a fact

"He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." ...........id say this means the sword is the holy spirit which is a spiritual sword to fight the wiles of satan and his people in this world........again this is speculation
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

These instructions were quite different from those He had given before (Luke 9:3; 10:4; 22:35; 9:56). Before, He was with the disciples, and they were being trained. Now, however, He would no longer be with them. After that night they must go forth into the world on their permanent mission, and they must have the usual means of survival in a hostile world.


Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Jesus was prophesied to be the Prince of Peace (Isaiah 9:6) and "peace on earth" was the angel's song at His birth (Luke 2:14); yet He has been the very center of conflict in the world ever since He came. Those who receive Him, however, do "have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Romans 5:1). The promise of global peace will finally be fulfilled when Christ returns.:)



 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
Ephesians 6:10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18 And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints. NIV

It's always best to search the scriptures to understand the scriptures. :D
 

andyjamal

servant
michel said:

Jesus was prophesied to be the Prince of Peace (Isaiah 9:6)

I think that Christ is clearly telling us, by saying that He did not come to bring peace, that He is not the Prince of Peace foretold of in Isaiah. Indeed we have not seen much peace on earth since the advent of Christianity. Surely, the Prince of Peace refers to a Manifestation of God destined to appear after Christ.:)
 

lilithu

The Devil's Advocate
orichalcum said:
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword."

"He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."

So what is going on here then?
No justice; No peace!!

True peace only comes after the overthrow of oppression, when all of God's children truly stand as equals. As long as there is inequity and injustice, a true follower of Christ must "fight" to make things right. (That doesn't necessarily mean with physical force.) To make "peace" with those in power while there is still injustice in the world is to let evil triumph.

(basically, what NetDoc said.)
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
The word of God exposes the thoughts and intentions of men, and one thing I have found...

THEY DON'T LIKE IT!

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. 13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account. NIV

The truth will set you free, but it's gonna hurt bad in the process. Nobody likes spiritual "surgery", but the end result is peace.

Hebrews 12:7 Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? 8 If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons. 9 Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live! 10 Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness. 11No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it. NIV
 

lilithu

The Devil's Advocate
truthseekingsoul said:
What is the sword for then? The after party cake?
Jesus said, "Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men."

Jesus said, "You are the salt of the earth."

Jesus said, "You are the light of the world."

Jesus said, "When you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing."

Jesus said, "How will you say to your brother, 'Let me pull out the splinter in your eye' when there is log in your own eye?"


Me thinks he was more than capable of speaking poetically.
 

Ori

Angel slayer
lilithu said:
Jesus said, "Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men."

Jesus said, "You are the salt of the earth."

Jesus said, "You are the light of the world."

Jesus said, "When you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing."

Jesus said, "How will you say to your brother, 'Let me pull out the splinter in your eye' when there is log in your own eye?"


Me thinks he was more than capable of speaking poetically.
Yes, he could speak quite wonderfully, but I still don't quite get the sword thing. But I guess the searching for meaning can be just as important as the meaning itself.
 

Lloyd

Member
orichalcum said:
Yes, he could speak quite wonderfully, but I still don't quite get the sword thing. But I guess the searching for meaning can be just as important as the meaning itself.
What exactly are you having trouble with? Do you feel that the word 'sword' is meant literally? I find this such an interesting topic that I wouldn't mind taking another crack at unravelling it.
 
Maybe, he, Iyesos Kristos, the Negus (King) did not come to bring peace. He left that for the Negus Negast (King of Kings) to do. But, of course, I am biased.

One Love
Lij Marques Benjamin
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Seeing that I realized that I failed to answer Ori's second question;


Luke 22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

These instructions were quite different from those He had given before (Luke 9:3; 10:4; 22:35; 9:56). Before, He was with the disciples, and they were being trained. Now, however, He would no longer be with them. After that night they must go forth into the world on their permanent mission, and they must have the usual means of survival in a hostile world.

22:37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.

The Lord here quotes Isaiah 53:12. Until this point, He had merely encountered unbelief and hostility from the ruling establishment. Now, they were determined to have Him executed as a common criminal, not knowing they would actually be fulfilling a key Messianic prophecy. He was numbered with the criminals that we might be numbered with the saints (Revelation 5:9-12).

22:38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.
One of the disciples (probably Peter), misunderstood what Jesus said, thinking He was telling them they would have to defend Him that very night. The Lord simply told them, in effect, to quit talking about it, knowing they would not really understand until later.


(I quote the next two verses, as theymake the one in question clearer (To me):)
 
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