lunamoth
Will to love
I'm sorry UV but I do not understand what you are driving at. I get it that you hate Walmart. What does this have to do with Jesus and heaven?
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What does Jesus say about who will go to heaven?
- Thread starter Autodidact
- Start date
I'm sorry UV but I do not understand what you are driving at. I get it that you hate Walmart. What does this have to do with Jesus and heaven?
ayani
member
why not? i like it there. it's not too expensive, it's well-lit, and you can get just about anything. it's up to you if you want to shop there or not. but econimically i am way below the poverty line, and i like the place. i don't feel guilty for shopping there, or for supporting the company. if you have an ethical dillema with the store, than by all means avoid it. there are stores i avoid for personal ethical reasons, too.
blackout
Violet.
No, I do not "hate" Walmart.
I shop there because I have no choice.
It's obvious that entry to heaven is an economic issue.
It has to do with poor people, and rich people.
Impoverished people on the other side of the world,
make stores like Walmart possible for you (and me).
It would seem important then to carefully analyze the economic truths
behind the establisments and agencies that we give profit, rise, and interest to.
Do you not agree?
Turning a blind eye to injustice... is hardly a valid excuse for ignorance.
I shop there because I have no choice.
It's obvious that entry to heaven is an economic issue.
It has to do with poor people, and rich people.
Impoverished people on the other side of the world,
make stores like Walmart possible for you (and me).
It would seem important then to carefully analyze the economic truths
behind the establisments and agencies that we give profit, rise, and interest to.
Do you not agree?
Turning a blind eye to injustice... is hardly a valid excuse for ignorance.
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ayani
member
UV ~ Jesus says "poor in spirit". there were many wealthy disciples of Jesus who supported Him and His disicples out of their own means, and others who gave everything they had to the poor. money is not evil, neither is having money. the desire for (or love of) money is the *root* of evil, as it tends to breed selfishness, corruption, pride, materialism, and vanity.
lunamoth
Will to love
That's a good point UV. What do you think about it all as it relates to Christ and Christianity?
blackout
Violet.
Ok. So we're talking in allegory and metaphor.
(when the bible speaks in terms of "poor" and "rich"--- and many other things....)
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blackout
Violet.
What I thought about economics and christianity
caused me to be an "out of church christian"
for the last 3 years of my christianity.
I did not even want to contribute
to the mortgage and interest on another building
(endebting "church" to the elite banking families)
when there are so many people out there in real need.
I felt that CHRISTIANS were the church.
and that paying for extra buildings,
when we all have homes of our own,
public parks and all
in which to share life together FOR REAL...
as friends helping one another in all areas of life,
was hypocritical and just plain ... nonsensical.
Now... I don't personally care.
But still I cannot reconcile the talk with the walk.
I don't bring it up though, unless other people do.
I do not ... judge people for doing their thing.
Really I don't care what buildings people secure,
or where they shop, or what they eat or do, or who they sleep with
or anything.
But when people hold others to a standard of judgement,
and then don't live up to their own standards...
you must admit, it begs comment.
ayani
member
UV ~ yes, it does. well said. i have noticed this, too. one would have to be blind (willingly or unconsciously) not to see this. thankfully though, my Christian faith is not based on Christians, or on what happens in or with their churches. no church or denomination is perfect though, and a Christian who desires to go anywhere for church will have to take the good with the "meh". some churches though, obviously, follow Christ more faithfully than others.
lunamoth
Will to love
So, you think it's hypocritical for Christians to have a church building.
In what way do you feel you are being held to a standard of judgement by Christians? I would say those quotes apply to everyone, regardless of religion.
I'm just trying to understand UV. Jesus seems to be saying that God is with the poor, and that we have a responsibility to love and take care of each other. So, Christians fail at this much of the time. Does that make the message wrong?
blackout
Violet.
I certainly did for the last three years I was a christian.
Now, honeslty, I really don't care enough to have much of an opinion about it.
I mean... it doesn't concern me. I'm not a christian.
You know? It's not my business.
How much of christianity is not ultimately tied up in a "Judgement" scenerio?
If not, what is hell all about?
How many christians do not concern themselves at all with the "Judgement" teachings
of their religion?
It's a general mind'set of the christian religion itself.
What I really dislike as a non-christian, of course, is when christians try and
en'force their own standards on me, in my own personal life.
(and most especially by means of civil law)
GLBTP issues would be an obvious one.
Issues that don't affect me/other non-christians
I figure, are not my business.
I don't go around looking for specks & logs in people's eyes.
I'm not the "hypocracy" police.
(christian or otherwise)
I have better things to do.
But this is a religious forum,
and these topics come up. so, I share my thoughts.
Also, I am an individualist.
Individuals have their own reasons for doing what they do.
I respect that right, and I never pretend to know
"why" a person does what they do.
Not all christians "go to church" for the same reasons. Obviously.
If they get something out of it they need, I'm all for that.
Why wouldn't I be?
On the flip side there is the harsh punishment of the rich.
Who ARE the rich?
How much rich, makes someone rich?
I'm the one always saying the little people REALLY need to take care of one another,
before we ALL get so depleted no one has anything at all.
People do not pool their talents and resources.
So everyone goes down, in their little nuclear family boat,
and all the good they have to offer goes down with them,
because they did not WISELY combine their talents and resources.
(reminds me of a parable...)
It would behove us all to love and take care of one another.
But this does not mean charity to me.
This means expanded family. The family of humanity.
For me this is not a christian issue, but a human one.
Also, god is not 'with' the rich /or the poor IMO.
But my idea of gOd is significantly different than yours,
and is not really on topic for this thread.
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Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
That passage doesn't seem to have anything to do with heaven, from my reading.
lunamoth
Will to love
Well, I can see your point. I personally think that community and worship are important parts of the Christian religion so it practically makes sense to have a place to come together to worship. But, I also agree that the building and other trappings can become more of an obstacle than a help, and I would agree that while a beautiful building that evokes the glory of God is wonderful, it should not be the primary focus. In fact, I would say that it can become something that gets between us and God.
My church also opens its doors to many groups in the community without charge, and acts as a community center in other ways. I think this is a good thing.
Judgement is part of the Christian perspective, but we are also instructed to not judge others. Hell is about separation from God, and judgement is discernment of those things that come between us and God (including those church buildings when they become more important than our relationship with God and each other). So, we rightly should be concerned with judgement. We strive to judge so we can align our will with God's, so we judge the actions of others as part of the choices we make for ourselves. But, as Booko would say, its above our pay grade to judge other people. Our job with each other is to love each other as we love ourselves.
True, I don't like that either. But even without Christianity in the picture we always are going to face the questions about how we live together peacefully in community when we don't agree with each other.
I am glad you do. You responded to the Bible passages I posted with some challenging comments, so I wanted to find out where you are coming from. I wanted to make sure I understood your view and give you my perspective on the topic.
The problem with Christianity seems to be that it is populated by fallible people with a wide diversity of views, many of which you disagree with. I'll address your point on the scripture passages below.
OK. Sounds good!
I don't read this as harsh punishment of the rich. As ayani said, it is not about being rich, but about how you use your wealth (or whatever other gifts you have).
That all sounds very Godly to me. :beach:
OK.
MountainHumanist
Member
Never mind...
MSizer
MSizer
I think she has a perfectly valid point. I think that each time you purchase something from an establishment like walmart, where the primary sales pitch is low price, there's very high probability you're committing a grave sin for exactly the reason UV points out. We can't claim innocence by ignorance either, because we know that labour laws are weak or ignored in many places, and we have tools for researching brands and their suppliers. I think UV is right. Shopping at walmart and similar places, or anywhere for that matter without researching the source of the products, is in clear violation of Jesus' command.
In short, shopping at walmart makes you as fat as a camel and they don't fit through needle eyes.
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
Lives there a Christian on earth with the sincerity to follow this passage?
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
I don't know if this is just Christianity, or all religions (not knowing as much about other religions) but there is this weird thing where Christian preachers teach the exact opposite of what Jesus said. It's bizarre. Like this "prosperity gospel," "Jesus wants you to be prosperous," thing. That's odd, I wonder why Jesus took the trouble to say the exact opposite?
I mean, if you gather all the "Jesus said" in the gospels, you get a very slim volume. He didn't say much. And He did say: give your money to the poor, take care of the poor, being rich is not good. He didn't say a word about gay sex, only about divorce and adultery, but you have all these rich, divorced Christians out persecuting gay people, basically practicing anti-Christianity, but just sure they're saved. They better hope we atheists are right, because if Christianity turns out to be true, they're in deep trouble come judgment day.
I mean, if you gather all the "Jesus said" in the gospels, you get a very slim volume. He didn't say much. And He did say: give your money to the poor, take care of the poor, being rich is not good. He didn't say a word about gay sex, only about divorce and adultery, but you have all these rich, divorced Christians out persecuting gay people, basically practicing anti-Christianity, but just sure they're saved. They better hope we atheists are right, because if Christianity turns out to be true, they're in deep trouble come judgment day.
Personally, I think Wallmart is hell, but to answer your question V;
The Widow's mite;
Mark 12:41-44 (King James Version)
" 41And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much. 42And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.
43And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:
44For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living."
blackout
Violet.
BTW... I just realized I might not have been so clear.
I was speaking of the low/pitance wage labor in China and third world countries,
who produce the goods for Walmart and the like.
I didn't mean US Walmart workers. *doh*
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lunamoth
Will to love
There are some, but I don't think we are all called to give up everything and become street preachers. That would be kind of silly, wouldn't it? But, we are called to give a lot more than most of us do.
The rich young man went to Jesus looking for the simple answer, "What are the rules? What are ABC and D that I can do to be saved?" And, probably, he already felt pretty good about where he was, because he knew he was following the commandments. But Jesus threw him a curve ball. It's not about the rules, but about our whole life. You can't just check off a list of boxes and think you're done...but that is what we always ask for. Make it simple for me, make it so I can control it and know I'm OK.
Really, Jesus gave him the only answer we can give when people ask "what can I do to be saved?" Give up what distracts you, turn toward God, and follow Jesus. It's a way of life and it is about our relationships with God and each other. Choose every day to put God at the center of your life. Choose every day to help and love others. It's not checking off a list of boxes.
It's as challenging as any relationship we enter into that requires sacrifice, and it tends to be a bit 'messier' than following rules.