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What does Jesus say about who will go to heaven?

ayani

member
my point was just that Jesus has asked us to believe in Him, to put His words into practice, and to follow His commandments. those who associate themselves with Jesus but do not do those things (bear fruit) Jesus has said will be cast into the fire, a readily understood metaphore for hellfire and punishment in the life to come.

(many of Jesus' sayings are obviously not "this next segement of my sermon will focus on heaven and hell and reward and punishment, using the analogies of..." but rather He launches right into the metaphore or similie.)

the sheep and goats scenario is directly related to the judgement and the life to come, and this works in conjunction with other passages where Jesus talks about the afterlife, and what He expects from us as His disciples. nothing Jesus' says He says in a vacuum. serving the least of these is indeed important, and what Jesus wants us to do. but that is not all Jesus has asked us to do in His Name. this sheep and goats analogy illustrates several aspects of how we are judged as believers, but should not be taken by itself without the input of other verses about discipleship and what Jesus asks us to do.

the believing, doing, bearing fruits, nor bearing fruits, putting Jesus words into practicce and obey His commandments, and finally either being cast into the fire or not are all related, and these also relate to the sheep and goats scenario (where Jesus adressess believers and asks what they have done for Him) as these sheep and goats are the same people Jesus elsewhere refers to as trees and vines.

Jesus does not say here or elsewhere that believers will be judged only on the grounds of kindness to the needy in His Name, but rather highlights and names these criteria within that particular parable.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
my point was just that Jesus has asked us to believe in Him, to put His words into practice, and to follow His commandments. those who associate themselves with Jesus but do not do those things (bear fruit) Jesus has said will be cast into the fire, a readily understood metaphore for hellfire and punishment in the life to come.

(many of Jesus' sayings are obviously not "this next segement of my sermon will focus on heaven and hell and reward and punishment, using the analogies of..." but rather He launches right into the metaphore or similie.)

the sheep and goats scenario is directly related to the judgement and the life to come, and this works in conjunction with other passages where Jesus talks about the afterlife, and what He expects from us as His disciples. nothing Jesus' says He says in a vacuum. serving the least of these is indeed important, and what Jesus wants us to do. but that is not all Jesus has asked us to do in His Name. this sheep and goats analogy illustrates several aspects of how we are judged as believers, but should not be taken by itself without the input of other verses about discipleship and what Jesus asks us to do.

the believing, doing, bearing fruits, nor bearing fruits, putting Jesus words into practicce and obey His commandments, and finally either being cast into the fire or not are all related, and these also relate to the sheep and goats scenario (where Jesus adressess believers and asks what they have done for Him) as these sheep and goats are the same people Jesus elsewhere refers to as trees and vines.

Jesus does not say here or elsewhere that believers will be judged only on the grounds of kindness to the needy in His Name, but rather highlights and names these criteria within that particular parable.

Well, here's the passage:

31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."


Sounds to me like Jesus is saying that those who help the poor etc. get eternal life, and those who failed to do so get eternal punishment.
 

Smoke

Done here.
Jesus said pretty much the opposite of what most Christians say. He never mentioned a word about the necessity of receiving him as your personal savior, and he never said that salvation depended on subscribing to a set of beliefs, receiving the sacraments, or any of the other things churches emphasize.

He said quite plainly that people will be judged on how they treated other people, and that the righteous are those who feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty and shelter to the homeless, who clothe the naked, care for the sick and visit those in prison.

He doesn't say that in the context of how just believers will be judged, either. He says "All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats."
 

ayani

member
Smoke and Auto ~yet this passage is directly related to Ezekiel 34:11-31, where God is described as gathering His people from the nations, those same "sheep and goats" of Matthew 25:31-46. the connection here is that God the Father speaks in Ezekiel 34, and Jesus the Son reveals in Matthew 25 that it is He who will seperate the sheep and the goats. this is an interesting passage, and relates back to Ezekiel, giving more creedance to the idea that Jesus is God in flesh.when compared to Ezekiel it is clear that the sheep and goats are peoples who have already known God, and belong to Him (as the sheep of John 10). thus this judgement of the nations by Jesus is not a judgement for everyone, Christian and non-Christian. it is a judgement for those from the nations (all of them) who have been called by Jesus' Name, and believed in Him. this is further supported by Jesus' being called "Lord" by those peoples He judges in Matthew 25, and by the familiarity with which those peoples address Jesus (meaning they are already familiar with Him and ask when they saw Him naked or lonely).this is my interpretation of the text, but it is supported by passages in Ezekiel as well as John and Matthew, that this judgement of the nations is one for the diverse nations of believers, professing and genuine. see also Matthew 7:21-23 for evidence that this judgement is for those who have already known of and professed to follow Jesus ("Lord, Lord....did we not do so many things in Your Name?"), not for all peoples.
 

lunamoth

Will to love
17As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" 18"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone. 19You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.'[d]"
20"Teacher," he declared, "all these I have kept since I was a boy."
21Jesus looked at him and loved him. "One thing you lack," he said. "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
22At this the man's face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth.
23Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, "How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!"
24The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again, "Children, how hard it is[e] to enter the kingdom of God! 25It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
26The disciples were even more amazed, and said to each other, "Who then can be saved?"
27Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God."
28Peter said to him, "We have left everything to follow you!"
29"I tell you the truth," Jesus replied, "no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel 30will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age (homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—and with them, persecutions) and in the age to come, eternal life. 31But many who are first will be last, and the last first." (Mark 10)
 

ayani

member
this sheep and goats judgement is for believers, who will be judged based on their righteousness in Christ, and their fruits in Him.
this judgement initiates Jesus' second coming, and His reign on earth for 1,000 years.
Biblically the second judgement for non-believers is the "white throne" judgement of Revelation 20:11-15. those judged here will be judged based on "what they had done".
 
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blackout

Violet.
So what of the poor who don't have anything to offer or give anyone else?
(including time, because they work a million hours a day for a pittance)
(which will be all of us before you know it, if things keep going as they are.....)

What are THESE people supposed to do to get into heaven?

Do poor people get into heaven by default? Just because they're poor then?
 
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blackout

Violet.
What if you shop at Walmart and other establisments
that take advantage of poor people for low wage (pittance) labor,
so you can have cheap stuff.
(and extra change to stick in the poor box at your church
once you've helped pay the mortgage on the church building.)
 

lunamoth

Will to love
So what of the poor who don't have anything to offer or give anyone else?
(including time, because they work a million hours a day for a pittance)
(which will be all of us before you know it, if things keep going as they are.....)

What are THESE people supposed to do to get into heaven?

Do poor people get into heaven by default? Just because they're poor then?

20Looking at his disciples, he said:
"Blessed are you who are poor,
for yours is the kingdom of God.
21Blessed are you who hunger now,
for you will be satisfied.
Blessed are you who weep now,
for you will laugh.
22Blessed are you when men hate you,
when they exclude you and insult you
and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man. 23"Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven. For that is how their fathers treated the prophets.
24"But woe to you who are rich,
for you have already received your comfort.
25Woe to you who are well fed now,
for you will go hungry.
Woe to you who laugh now,
for you will mourn and weep.
26Woe to you when all men speak well of you,
for that is how their fathers treated the false prophets.
 

ayani

member
UV ~ to those who have been given more, more is required. those with less will not be held accountable for what they did not have access to, including the Gospel, in the same way as those who did.
 

Smoke

Done here.
thus this judgement of the nations by Jesus is not a judgement for everyone, Christian and non-Christian. it is a judgement for those from the nations (all of them) who have been called by Jesus' Name, and believed in Him. this is further supported by Jesus' being called "Lord" by those peoples He judges in Matthew 25, and by the familiarity with which those peoples address Jesus (meaning they are already familiar with Him and ask when they saw Him naked or lonely).this is my interpretation of the text, but it is supported by passages in Ezekiel as well as John and Matthew, that this judgement of the nations is one for the diverse nations of believers, professing and genuine. see also Matthew 7:21-23 for evidence that this judgement is for those who have already known of and professed to follow Jesus ("Lord, Lord....did we not do so many things in Your Name?"), not for all peoples.
No, Ezekiel refers to Israel only. Jesus refers to "all the nations." Not to "all the nations who have been called by Jesus' Name." Jesus also doesn't say in Matthew 7 that all the unrighteous to be judged will be Christians; he just says that "many will say" they've done great things in his name.

However, in Matthew 7 he does make it clear that profession of faith is meaningless without deeds of righteousness: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

As for the Apocalypse, the thread topic relates to the teachings of Jesus, not to the eschatological flights of fancy people have derived from the Apocalypse. If you can't find it in the teachings of Jesus, it's not relevant to this thread.
 

blackout

Violet.
20Looking at his disciples, he said:
"Blessed are you who are poor,
for yours is the kingdom of God.
21Blessed are you who hunger now,
for you will be satisfied.
Blessed are you who weep now,
for you will laugh.
22Blessed are you when men hate you,
when they exclude you and insult you
and reject your name as evil, because of the Son of Man. 23"Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven. For that is how their fathers treated the prophets.
24"But woe to you who are rich,
for you have already received your comfort.
25Woe to you who are well fed now,
for you will go hungry.
Woe to you who laugh now,
for you will mourn and weep.
26Woe to you when all men speak well of you,
for that is how their fathers treated the false prophets.

This sounds like economic/class warfare to me.
 

lunamoth

Will to love
What if you shop at Walmart and other establisments
that take advantage of poor people for low wage (pittance) labor,
so you can have cheap stuff.
(and extra change to stick in the poor box at your church
once you've helped pay the mortgage on the church building.)

13"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.[c] 15"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.
16"Woe to you, blind guides! You say, 'If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.' 17You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18You also say, 'If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.' 19You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20Therefore, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. 22And he who swears by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one who sits on it.
23"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
25"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
27"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. 28In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
29"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30And you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' 31So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!
33"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation. (Matthew 23)
 

blackout

Violet.
actually, i did. via frubal comments. please read.

Ok, well you didn't really address my point, but whatever.

We're all doin' the best we can as slaves of the elite rulership right?

Some slaves do better than others.:shrug:
(give or take a few hundred thousand a year)
 

ayani

member
UV ~ i don't see it that way at all. yes, i have a low-paying job, but i see myself more as a sevant of God, of Christ, not an economic system or powerful bosses. i may lose my job tomorrow. but i know and trust that God can and will take care of us, with or without a paycheck. that is part of what it means to be a Christian- trusting God wholly, and being in the world, but not of it.
 

blackout

Violet.
13"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.[c] 15"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.
16"Woe to you, blind guides! You say, 'If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.' 17You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18You also say, 'If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.' 19You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20Therefore, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. 22And he who swears by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one who sits on it.
23"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
25"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
27"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. 28In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
29"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30And you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' 31So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!
33"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation. (Matthew 23)

So it is a hypocracy for .... a christian?.... to shop at Walmart?

Or are the owners of Walmart alone held to hypocritical standards.

If people did not shop there on account of the usury of the impoverished,
for the sake of cheap (affordable?) goods
they could not stay in business.
It's always easy to shift the blame.
 
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