"non-denominational" churches

Quiddity · Jun 13, 2005

I Corinthians 4:6 Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not take pride in one man over against another. 7 For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not? NIV

NetDoc, a catholic apologists does a rather good job of explaning this verse. For this one I will copy and paste. Gary Hoge says:

1 Corinthians 4:6

Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, Do not go beyond what is written. Then you will not take pride in one man over against another.

At first glance, this verse really seems to nail it. Do not go beyond what is written. What could be clearer? Here, at last, is the perspicuous biblical teaching that all doctrines must be derived from the Scripture alone. Or so it seems. Unfortunately, what looks at first to be a clear teaching of sola Scriptura evaporates under scrutiny. Whatever this verse does teach, we know for certain that it does not teach that the Scriptures are the only source of truth, and we must never go beyond them. We know that because just seven chapters later, Paul wrote, Now I praise you because you . . . hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you (1 Cor. 11:2). The Corinthians were commended for holding firmly to the oral teachings of Paul, and not to the Scriptures alone. So unless Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, contradicted himself, this verse does not teach sola Scriptura.

So what does it teach? That depends in part on how it is translated. The phrase the meaning of the saying, in the New International Version (NIV) translation cited above is not found in the Greek text of 1 Corinthians; it is an interpretation. What the Greek literally says is,

Now these things, brothers, I adapted to myself and Apollos because of you, in order that among us ye may learn not [to think] above what things have been written, lest ye are puffed up against one on behalf of the other.8

The King James Version (KJV) is actually much closer to the literal meaning than the NIV:

And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

That certainly fits the context of Chapter 4, which is a warning to the Corinthians not to exalt Paul or Apollos above what is appropriate, and not to divide into factions. In other words, it is possible that Paul is saying, that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written about the subject at hand. The Old Testament Scriptures (to which Paul is referring) teach enough about the nature of man that the Corinthians should know better than to exalt one over the other, and to divide into factions. This verse really has nothing to do with the Scriptures and their role in the formulation of doctrine and practice; it has to do with the proper attitude of the Corinthians toward Paul and Apollos.

Another problem with this verse is that it is not clear what Paul meant by that which is written. In a footnote to this verse, Geisler and MacKenzie note, There is some debate even among Protestant scholars as to whether Paul is referring here to his own previous statements or to Scripture as a whole. The great Protestant Scripture commentator Matthew Henry was of the opinion that Paul was referring to his own previous statements. There is actually some question whether hes referring to the Scriptures at all. Look at the verse in context:

And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ . . . For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? . . . For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: bet he that judgeth me is the Lord. Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God. And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another. (1 Corinthians 3:1, 4-5, 21; 4:1, 4-6).

It is possible that the key to understanding verse 6 is found in the phrase And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred . . . What things? The things in the immediately preceding verses, of course. Those verses deal with the final judgement:

Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God. (1 Corinthians 4:5).

This judgement is described in Revelation:

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. (Revelation 20:12).

From the context, this may well be what Paul had in mind. When he says, that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another, he may be talking about not exceeding what is written in Gods books of judgement. In other words, Look at men as they really are. Do not think of men above that which is written in heaven about them, then you will not take pride in one man over against another. Perhaps Paul was simply reminding the Corinthians that he and Apollos and Cephas were mere men, who, like them, must one day face judgement. Therefore, the Corinthians should not think more highly of them than is appropriate, and they certainly shouldnt divide into factions because of them.

I have offered two possible explanations of what verse 6 means, perhaps you can think of others. But as I said before, we know for sure that it does not support sola Scriptura because it was clearly not addressing that subject in the first place, and because of Pauls statement in chapter 11 that the Corinthians are to be commended for holding to the oral Tradition Paul handed down to them.

Hope this helps.

~Victor

Quiddity · Jun 13, 2005

ANOTHER great question! Here is the scriptural answer:

Hebrews 13:15 Through Jesus, therefore, let us continually offer to God a sacrifice of praisethe fruit of lips that confess his name. 16 And do not forget to do good and to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased. 17 Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you. NIV

Good answer and agreed. Now my next question is why do they need to give account FOR YOU? Is this authority only given to give Joy? Or is this authority extend to doctrinal matters? If not, why not?

~Victor

Quiddity · Jun 13, 2005

I agree with all that is said there but who told them to to this? who authority did they have ? The Lords ? Would that be the same Lord that forbids us to make for ourselves Idols..

Fortunately we believe the Catholic Church was given authority by our Lord Jesus Christ.

Let me rephrase that..Why do you kneel infront of a statue to pray...They cannot hear you..Why would you kneel and pray infront of the statue in the first place so no I don't understand if you would like to explain, I pray to God in Jesus name..

Here is a good read for you. If you wish to understand.
http://catholicoutlook.com/objmary4.php

You know the more you harp on about this, it's starting to sound like your wanting me to bow down to the church before you will except anything I say from Scripture..I feel I have already answered your question as to why I believe the Bible is the writen word of God, However You believe it is the word of God, Right ? That won't change what is written, Im not asking you to listen to me so there shouldn't be a problem on why I believe the bible..The fact is you have your reasons for believing it, is that not Good enough, would me having the same reasons as you change Scripture..No It Would not...When God says Do Not make images or molten Idols, was he kidding on..When God says Clearly in Scripture " Do Not"... "you must not" Then It is him we have to listen too and obey his commandments..Something you seem to chise to ignore..

glasgowchick, as catholics we believe the following.
1. The Bible is the Word of God
2. We need to study the Scriptures
3. The Scriptures are authoritative

I don't think we disagree here. So I think the question to ask is: Why do you believe the Bible is formally sufficient?
To say that the Bible is formally sufficient means that it not only contains every doctrine necessary for salvation, but that those doctrines are also presented so clearly and plainly that anyone can understand them easily, without the help of an outside interpreter. In other words the Bible is self-interpreting.

As catholics we believe that the apostles taught the gospel both orally and in writing, and that Jesus established His Church to safeguard the gospel message, whether oral or written. Some of the apostles teachings are explained quite clearly in their writings (the bodily resurrection of Christ, for example), but other teachings are barely mentioned, and sometimes they are difficult to understand and subject to multiple interpretations (the unforgivable sin, for example). Therefore, if we are to have a clear and correct understanding of the gospel, we must not exclude the oral teachings that have been handed down from the apostles. In many cases the oral teachings can shed light on the written teachings, and help us know how to interpret them. Looking at how the first Christians understood the gospel can also help us know how to interpret the Bible. We all know what Jesus said, but in order to be sure we correctly understand what He meant, He invested His church with the task of interpreting His Word, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
The Catholic Church uses the word Tradition to describe the part of apostolic teaching that was handed down orally. This is perhaps unfortunate, because to modern ears the word tradition means traditions of men or legends. Its very important to remember that when the Catholic Church speaks of Tradition (with a capital T) it is referring only to the unwritten teachings of the apostles.

~Victor

Scuba Pete · Jun 13, 2005

To begin with:

James 3:1 Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. 2 We all stumble in many ways. If anyone is never at fault in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to keep his whole body in check. NIV

I Timothy 5:17 The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. 18 For the Scripture says, "Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain," and "The worker deserves his wages."19 Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. 20 Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning. NIV

Titus 1:5 The reason I left you in Crete was that you might straighten out what was left unfinished and appoint elders in every town, as I directed you. 6 An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient. 7 Since an overseer is entrusted with God's work, he must be blamelessnot overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain. 8 Rather he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined. 9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it. NIV

The elders (as well as the Deacons) are in charge of the flock for each congregation. They have quite a bit of responsibility and apparently God holds them accountable.

SoliDeoGloria · Jun 13, 2005

Oh wow, I didn't see this coming. I started this one a long time ago. Oh well, that's what I get for not checking up on threads I start.

Sincerely,
SoliDeoGloria

Quiddity · Jun 14, 2005

NetDoc said:
To begin with:

James 3:1 Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. 2 We all stumble in many ways. If anyone is never at fault in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to keep his whole body in check. NIV

I Timothy 5:17 The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. 18 For the Scripture says, "Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain," and "The worker deserves his wages."19 Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. 20 Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning. NIV

Titus 1:5 The reason I left you in Crete was that you might straighten out what was left unfinished and appoint elders in every town, as I directed you. 6 An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient. 7 Since an overseer is entrusted with God's work, he must be blamelessnot overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain. 8 Rather he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined. 9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it. NIV

The elders (as well as the Deacons) are in charge of the flock for each congregation. They have quite a bit of responsibility and apparently God holds them accountable.

Ok, I agree but you didn't answer my second question, which is the one I was really trying to get to. Unless I missed it.

"Or is this authority extend to doctrinal matters? If not, why not?"

Any thoughts about my last 2 posts?

The least in Christ
~Victor

Scuba Pete · Jun 14, 2005

We already discussed about not going "beyond what is written", right?

No one is allowed to contradict, add to, or subtract from scripture. The goal is to immitate the First Century church... in all it's primitiveness. I believe that they had it goin' on.

may · Jun 14, 2005

"Religion that is pure and genuine in the sight of God the Father will show itself by such things as . . . keeping oneself uncontaminated by the world."JAMES 1:27, Phillips.

True worship is not tainted by involvement in politics and worldly conflicts

They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world(john 17;16)

And it must occur in the final part of the days [that] the mountain of the house of Jehovah will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, and it will certainly be lifted up above the hills; and to it all the nations must stream. And many peoples will certainly go and say: "Come, YOU people, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will instruct us about his ways, and we will walk in his paths." For out of Zion law will go forth, and the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem. And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore(isaiah 2;2-4)so who is not involved with war?

glasgowchick · Jun 14, 2005

Victor said:
Fortunately we believe the Catholic Church was given authority by our Lord Jesus Christ.

Here is a good read for you. If you wish to understand.
http://catholicoutlook.com/objmary4.php

glasgowchick, as catholics we believe the following.
1. The Bible is the Word of God
2. We need to study the Scriptures
3. The Scriptures are authoritative

I don't think we disagree here. So I think the question to ask is: Why do you believe the Bible is formally sufficient?
To say that the Bible is formally sufficient means that it not only contains every doctrine necessary for salvation, but that those doctrines are also presented so clearly and plainly that anyone can understand them easily, without the help of an outside interpreter. In other words the Bible is self-interpreting.

As catholics we believe that the apostles taught the gospel both orally and in writing, and that Jesus established His Church to safeguard the gospel message, whether oral or written. Some of the apostles teachings are explained quite clearly in their writings (the bodily resurrection of Christ, for example), but other teachings are barely mentioned, and sometimes they are difficult to understand and subject to multiple interpretations (the unforgivable sin, for example). Therefore, if we are to have a clear and correct understanding of the gospel, we must not exclude the oral teachings that have been handed down from the apostles. In many cases the oral teachings can shed light on the written teachings, and help us know how to interpret them. Looking at how the first Christians understood the gospel can also help us know how to interpret the Bible. We all know what Jesus said, but in order to be sure we correctly understand what He meant, He invested His church with the task of interpreting His Word, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
The Catholic Church uses the word Tradition to describe the part of apostolic teaching that was handed down orally. This is perhaps unfortunate, because to modern ears the word tradition means traditions of men or legends. Its very important to remember that when the Catholic Church speaks of Tradition (with a capital T) it is referring only to the unwritten teachings of the apostles.

~Victor

Hello victor, There is something I am misunderstanding here, you say that, It is very important to remember that when the Catholic church speaks of tridtion etc, it is reffering to the unwritten teachings of apostles..How can one hand down something Orally, please excuse my ignorance of maybe stupidity but if something is said orally and not written down, if we weren't there at the time of the apostles spoke orally..Im sorry Im not understanding what your saying here..Thankyou for your post victor...

glasgowchick · Jun 14, 2005

glasgowchick said:
Hello victor, There is something I am misunderstanding here, you say that, It is very important to remember that when the Catholic church speaks of tridtion etc, it is reffering to the unwritten teachings of apostles..How can one hand down something Orally, please excuse my ignorance of maybe stupidity but if something is said orally and not written down, if we weren't there at the time of the apostles spoke orally..Im sorry Im not understanding what your saying here..Thankyou for your post victor...

Hi Again Victor, I just got done reading the artical you put in your post to me, I did enjoy reading it thankyou...That is how you see the interpretation and that is good, there is a scripture that I can't think of at the moment off the top of my head, but I am sure you will know the one I'm talking about. It's the one that says we have to be "sure in our own mind"...If you see thats what the Scripture says and that's what you live by then who am I to judge..Now please allow me if you will to explain how I would read these passages...But before I do I would like to say something first..When in Church and there are prayer request, we don't ask eachother to pray for us, we take all of our prayers to God in Jesus name..Now for the Scriptures in the site that has been mentioned..While it is right to pray for everybody cause boy do we all need prayers right? But the way I read Rev 5:8 when it is talking about the bowls with the prayers of the saints, We are also saints here on earth according to psalms 16:3...So could rev 5:8 be possibly be saying that the prayers in the bowls are from the saints here on Earth ?..This is how I see it and that doesn't make it wrong either....We can read Scripture that has no specific command in it and come to different conclusions but that shouldn't stop us from being a church...I shall try and give you another example..

1Timothy 2:9-10 likewise I want women to adorn themselves with proper Clothing modesty and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments, 10 but rather by means of good works as it is proper for women making a claim to Godliness...Would you please tell me how you would read this passage...And apply this in my life...Thankyou...

glasgowchick · Jun 14, 2005

I don't think we disagree hear

Hi Victor now I will try answer some of your quetions..first answer, I totally agree, that the bible is the word of God, we do need to study Scritpture and that Scritptures are Authoritive agreed..

Why do I believe the bible is formally sufficiant

To answer that question, I dont recall saying that every doctrine is prestented so clearly..I know there are a lot of Scriptures hard to understand and that is why we need Elders to tend to their flock, but I also believe that Scripture can be analysed as, facts to be believed, commands to be obeyed promises to be recieved and warnings for all to heed..I don't think the Gospel of Christ Jesus is hard to understand, Hear, believe, confess Christ, repent and be baptized for the forgivness of sins and you shall recieve the Gift of the Holy Spirit..Oh and live faithfully to the end..I believe if we follow those instructions we have salvation...

Traditions

The Traditions of the early Church was that once they had heard the Gospel told to them by peter, They were baptized..Acts 2:41 tells us " So then those who had recieved his word where baptized and that day there were added about three thousand souls verse 46 day by day continuing with one mind in the temple and breaking bread from house to house, they were taking thier meals together with gladness and sincerity of heart verse 47 praising God and having favor with all people and the Lord was adding to thier number day by day those who were being saved..Here is how I read this Scripture..People heard the Gospel,where sorry for crucifying our Lord [ repented ] believed and where baptized, That was the beguining of the Church..From there on in it was their tradition to the gathering together to break bread on the first day of the week, they took up a collection, they worshipped, the sang,.. and I have ran out of time, need to collect the kids from school...Sorry!!!!!!!!

Victor said:
Fortunately we believe the Catholic Church was given authority by our Lord Jesus Christ.

Here is a good read for you. If you wish to understand.
http://catholicoutlook.com/objmary4.php

glasgowchick, as catholics we believe the following.
1. The Bible is the Word of God
2. We need to study the Scriptures
3. The Scriptures are authoritative

I don't think we disagree here. So I think the question to ask is: Why do you believe the Bible is formally sufficient?
To say that the Bible is formally sufficient means that it not only contains every doctrine necessary for salvation, but that those doctrines are also presented so clearly and plainly that anyone can understand them easily, without the help of an outside interpreter. In other words the Bible is self-interpreting.

As catholics we believe that the apostles taught the gospel both orally and in writing, and that Jesus established His Church to safeguard the gospel message, whether oral or written. Some of the apostles teachings are explained quite clearly in their writings (the bodily resurrection of Christ, for example), but other teachings are barely mentioned, and sometimes they are difficult to understand and subject to multiple interpretations (the unforgivable sin, for example). Therefore, if we are to have a clear and correct understanding of the gospel, we must not exclude the oral teachings that have been handed down from the apostles. In many cases the oral teachings can shed light on the written teachings, and help us know how to interpret them. Looking at how the first Christians understood the gospel can also help us know how to interpret the Bible. We all know what Jesus said, but in order to be sure we correctly understand what He meant, He invested His church with the task of interpreting His Word, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
The Catholic Church uses the word Tradition to describe the part of apostolic teaching that was handed down orally. This is perhaps unfortunate, because to modern ears the word tradition means traditions of men or legends. Its very important to remember that when the Catholic Church speaks of Tradition (with a capital T) it is referring only to the unwritten teachings of the apostles.

~Victor

Uncertaindrummer · Jun 14, 2005

glasgowchick said:
Like I have said,instead of saying what is not there try and see what is there.. Guess thats not in the bible either..

Actually God did not forbid the making of statues, he forbid the making of IDOLS. That is a huge difference. And did you not read the passages, God commanded them to make statues. I can get more if you like.

As for the Bible thing, that is really frustrating. You continue to just ignore my questions about it. If you do not want to asnwer, that is fine. But seeing as we are on a religious discussion forum, I figured you would.

Uncertaindrummer · Jun 14, 2005

NetDoc said:
And you accuse ME of a private interpretation of the scriptures? This is merely extrapolation. BTW, since Peter tells them to REPENT and be BAPTISED (Acts 2:38), how do these little tykes repent?

Like I said, the Biblical evidence for infant Baptism does not PROVE it. I do not need everything to be in the Bible.

I Corinthians 3:10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. NIV

[quoteDid I miss it? I don't see purgatory mentioned here. Maybe it's the wrong passage? [/quote]
He will suffer loss, he will be saved, but only as through fire. What fire? The fire of Hell? That can't be. No one is saved there. Heaven? No, no one suffers there. Only purgatory is left.

I didn't say in the Bible alone, though I am accused of it. I do believe in the Spirit as the counselor for ALL Christians.

Than how come he is counseling all Christians to disagree?

But I see NO WHERE that any apostle tells us that the church can usurp what scriptures have to say. I only see the opposite.

Is that so? 1 Tim 3: 15 "The Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth" what have you to say about that?

Scuba Pete · Jun 14, 2005

UD said:
Only purgatory is left.

Try LIFE. The "HEAT" of Spiritual Battle my friend! So, there is no REAL BIBLICAL proof of purgatory either. Just a lot of extrapolation to explain something that you don't really understand.

UD said:
Than how come he is counseling all Christians to disagree?

Uh, do you think the Spirit counseled Adam and Eve to sin as well? I would hope not. The truth is out there... are YOU willing to seek it? Are YOU willing to sacrifice your sacred cows in the name of truth?

UD said:
Is that so? 1 Tim 3: 15 "The Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth" what have you to say about that?

Whoa, whoa, whoa... let's NOT pull a verse out of context just to "win an argument".

I Timothy 3:14 Although I hope to come to you soon, I am writing you these instructions so that, 15 if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth. 16 Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great:
He appeared in a body,
was vindicated by the Spirit,
was seen by angels,
was preached among the nations,
was believed on in the world,
was taken up in glory. NIV

So just WHY was Paul writing these instructions if the church is to usurp them at any time?

glasgowchick · Jun 14, 2005

Actually God did not forbid the making of statues

Ok before I go any futher, I want to say I am sorry for all my nasty remarks and comments, It wasn't very Christ like and I apoligise..So no more smart remarks from this end...Ok Would you explain what a statue is if it is not an Idol or a graven image.. I have an Idea of the other Scriptures that would back your other scriptures up....So would you tell me how you see these other Scriptures...1kings19:18...what do you see that is going on here ? also hosea 13:2...

Uncertaindrummer said:
Actually God did not forbid the making of statues, he forbid the making of IDOLS. That is a huge difference. And did you not read the passages, God commanded them to make statues. I can get more if you like.

as for the Bible thing that is really fustrating

Click to expand...

The only way I can explain this and if it doesn't answer your question I'm sorry, I need to start with a question first, How did the Jews or gentiles hear the Gospel, Someone told them...My first real encounter with the Bible was a study with the mormans, More the book of morman than the bible however my next encounter was two years with the JWS, During that two year I was exposed to much of the bible [well their translation of it]..So my point being, Before anything else, through them, the Gospel and Gods word was opened up to me through the Scriptures, they brought the gospel to me...I know this is probably making no sense to you, But for me the bible was opened and inside that Bible, the scriptures where revealed, I read, I saw prophecies and the fulfillment of them, I saw Gods Plan for mankind and they way to salvation, and I believed that the Scriptures where the written word of God..Now as to why I left the jws is a whole new story....Im sorry if this hasn't helped your question but I have answered with the only answer I can....It is not the same reason as you but it is my reasons...
As for the Bible thing, that is really frustrating. You continue to just ignore my questions about it. If you do not want to asnwer, that is fine. But seeing as we are on a religious discussion forum, I figured you would.

Quiddity · Jun 14, 2005

Glasgowchick, thanks for taking the time to respond and the tone in which you presented it.

To answer that question, I dont recall saying that every doctrine is prestented so clearly..I know there are a lot of Scriptures hard to understand and that is why we need Elders to tend to their flock, but I also believe that Scripture can be analysed as, facts to be believed, commands to be obeyed promises to be recieved and warnings for all to heed..I don't think the Gospel of Christ Jesus is hard to understand, Hear, believe, confess Christ, repent and be baptized for the forgivness of sins and you shall recieve the Gift of the Holy Spirit..Oh and live faithfully to the end..I believe if we follow those instructions we have salvation...

I never claimed that you said that the bible was clear. I was only clarifying terms like formally sufficient. I also don't deny that we can analyze and come to understand many things in the Bible. Lastly, (hope you reading this as well NetDoc) I acknowledge that one must be assisted by God to understand the things of God, including Scripture. But the question is not whether the Bible is perspicuous to unbelievers (it isnt), but whether its generally perspicuous to its target audience of faithful Christians. I submit that it is not, and that this is proved by your own experience, and by mine, and by that of countless millions of other Christians who all claim to believe only what the Bible says, but who believe that it says radically different things. If you submit to something to something outside the Bible (your elders) then that only proves my point that the Bible Alone is not sufficient enough to get you to understand and identify doctrine. I suppose my next question could be why you listen or submit to your elders? As Catholics we admit we do this because we believe God gave men the authority to interpret for the flock when the flock fails to respond to the Holy Spirit, or for whatever other reason like being stubborn, etc. We hold councils to settle doctrinal disputes and if needed the successor of Peter with stand and say "Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, (talking about himself) that by my mouth (who's mouth? Why not OUR mouth?) the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe."(Acts 15:7)

This is how we settle differences glasgowchick. Look at Christianity for the past 500 years as proof of this interpretation chaos. Not only has non-catholic christians not been able to arrive at a unified version of Christianity to which they can all subscribe, but theyve spawned dozens of different versions of Christianity, and they havent been able to advance a step in resolving any of the myriad theological conflicts that have arisen from their conflicting interpretations of Scripture. I think this casts considerable doubt on the truth of the original assertion that Bible Alone is a workable alternative to the Catholic system it attempted to replace.

Let me know your thoughts.

The least in Christ
~Victor

Quiddity · Jun 14, 2005

Try LIFE. The "HEAT" of Spiritual Battle my friend! So, there is no REAL BIBLICAL proof of purgatory either. Just a lot of extrapolation to explain something that you don't really understand.

NetDoc, here is a link explaining. Written by Scott. We should leave this for another day guys.
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?p=151743#post151743

Uh, do you think the Spirit counseled Adam and Eve to sin as well? I would hope not. The truth is out there... are YOU willing to seek it? Are YOU willing to sacrifice your sacred cows in the name of truth?

NetDoc, the point is that there is no way besides using our own human faculities to identify truth. How do you recognize truth ND? Because you're smart? Because you FEEL it? Because you form yourself to what you understand in Scripture? I don't want to be inflammatory ND but those are weak arguments and are no different from the something an atheist or a Mormon can say. In Catholicism, we dont have that problem because we have an authoritative Magisterium (please make an attempt of trying to understand how the catholic system works before casting stones), which, guided by the Holy Spirit, identifies false doctrines, and proclaims true doctrines. That way, even the simplest Christian, no matter how uneducated he may be, can know what to believe, and what not to believe. In your system, how is the faithful Christian supposed to know which denomination is teaching the truth? I dont think he can, not for sure anyway, and thats why I dont think your system can be the system that Christ intended.

So just WHY was Paul writing these instructions if the church is to usurp them at any time?

Can you please clarify. I dont quite understand.

~Victor

Scuba Pete · Jun 14, 2005

Victor said:
How do you recognize truth ND?

Well first off... the marks are kinda obvious.

Galations 5:16 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

19 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. NIV

Gee-Whilikers... ALL THAT from the spirit? Whodathunk? So, if you have big issues about using the Spirit to accomplish righteousness and to measure such, take it up with the Big Guy.

Scott1 · Jun 14, 2005

NetDoc said:
Gee-Whilikers... ALL THAT from the spirit? Whodathunk? So, if you have big issues about using the Spirit to accomplish righteousness and to measure such, take it up with the Big Guy.

HA! Nice post.... you know, for me, to live is Christ......

Scuba Pete · Jun 14, 2005

Yo Vic,

Most "misunderstandings" have their origins in disobedience.

In other words, disobedience occurs in the presence of a complete understanding of the truth. (Romans 1 & 2).

The Spirit is doing it's bit, but we are not listening to the Spirit. It has always been thus.

"non-denominational" churches

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