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"non-denominational" churches
- Thread starter SoliDeoGloria
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Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
My friend, do you comprehend that Christianity is a "revealed" faith? If so, what do you think that actually means?UD said:
Your first statement is not accurate. Your interpretation of Christianity comes from the priests and ultimately the Pope. There are MANY things that you practice that you can not find in scripture. The Catholic Church has long maintained that sola scriptura is a fallacy. Are you now telling me differently? As for the authority of the Scriptures.UD said:
II Peter 1: 12 So I will always remind you of these things, even though you know them and are firmly established in the truth you now have. 13 I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of this body, 14 because I know that I will soon put it aside, as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. 15 And I will make every effort to see that after my departure you will always be able to remember these things.
16 We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased." 18 We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain. 19 And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. NIV
Apparently, Peter's efforts panned out and we have his epistles.
I will answer this with scripture:UD said:
II Timothy 3:10 You, however, know all about my teaching, my way of life, my purpose, faith, patience, love, endurance, 11 persecutions, sufferingswhat kinds of things happened to me in Antioch, Iconium and Lystra, the persecutions I endured. Yet the Lord rescued me from all of them. 12 In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 13 while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15 and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. NIV
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
Sounds like the detractors the Apostles had:Victor said:
Acts 2:13 Some, however, made fun of them and said, "They have had too much wine." NIV
Uncertaindrummer
Active Member
Yes it is revealed. So why don't you tell me what revealed it to you?NetDoc said:
NO! I can look in the Bible and find everything you don't want to see. I can show you the mass, I can show you Purgatory, I can show the the priesthood, I can show you Baptismal regeneration and Baptism for infants. You might not agree with my interpretation, but I can. You are basically saying "You are wrong, I am right" with no basis for doing so. WHO IS THE FINAL AUTHORITY? The Bible cannot interpret itself.
There you go! No prophecy of Scripture is a mater of private intperpretatino, and yet you are PRIVATELY interpreting everything! You claim it is the Holy Spirit? Then why has He abandoned me and only gone to you? Why did He pick YOU out of the THOUSANDS of protestant denominations? The quick answer; HE DIDN'T. You are using the Holy Spirit's guidance as a crutch, and yet ANYONE can use it. If I claimed that the Holy Spirit was guiding me, you would not believe it. So why should I believe you? The Holy Spirit cannot lead men into different directions. I find it highly arrogant that you believe the Holy Spirit is ONLY leading youy.
NO! You cannot prove Scripture from Scripture! It is impossible! If I wrote a book all about how Satanism was correct, and then at the end said "everything in this book is true", would that be sufficient? NO. STOP this circular logic which is unworthy of any discussion.
Uncertaindrummer
Active Member
Yes and you sound like one of the false preachers Jesus mentioned. Does thta change anything? No. Mormons, Muslism, Jehovas Witnesses, and tons of other religious groups claim this inward "feeling" you claim. Why shouldn't I believe THEM? I shouldn't, and you shouldn't try and use this "feeling" as a reason to contradict Scripture's warning against private interpretation, and the traditions of men. You are contradicting those conemnations, using the "Holy Spirit told me to" line does not change that.NetDoc said:Sounds like the detractors the Apostles had:
Acts 2:13 Some, however, made fun of them and said, "They have had too much wine." NIV
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
Ah... so now you are accusing me of "private interpretation" when it should be obvious that I use scripture to illuminate scripture.
So trot out the scriptures that support a priesthood that does not marry.
Trot out the scriptures that support infant baptism.
Trot out those that indicate a purgatory.
I hope that these are explicit and not merely extrapolations designed to force the Bible to quasi-spport what you believe.
Now, please ask me to support something that I believe in, and I will do it.
So trot out the scriptures that support a priesthood that does not marry.
Trot out the scriptures that support infant baptism.
Trot out those that indicate a purgatory.
I hope that these are explicit and not merely extrapolations designed to force the Bible to quasi-spport what you believe.
Now, please ask me to support something that I believe in, and I will do it.
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
BTW, you accuse me of "private interpretation" several times. I don't think you know what you are asserting here.
As for this:
As for this:
I cannot answer that for you, but would encourage you to figure it out pronto!UD said:
Quiddity
UndertheInfluenceofGiants
ND, what is private interpretation to you? It's someone who interprets without the Spirit, right? In all seriousness this just turns into a finger pointing match. Where everyone claiming to be led by the Spirit and not getting anywhere because they FEEL it. Didn't God see this coming?NetDoc said:BTW, you accuse me of "private interpretation" several times. I don't think you know what you are asserting here.
As for this:
I cannot answer that for you, but would encourage you to figure it out pronto!
It's not that we don't believe in this NetDoc, but it is only the RCC that has a solution to this "lead by the Spirit" chaos. If you want to sit there and say "well I have it and you guys don't". You will get no where with anyone.
~Victor
Uncertaindrummer
Active Member
You can't. It is imposible. Just as Atheism is intenable because something cannot create itself, the Bible cannot interpret itself.NetDoc said:
I could, but I do not need to. That is a discipline of the Church, somethign that could easily change, and there are exceptions to it.
Jesus contionuously told the Children to come to him, and that to enter the Kingdom of Heaven we must be like Children. Also, various times people and all their HOUSEHOLDS were baptized. Doe sthis prove infant Baptism? No, not really. But the Bible surely does not condemn it.
1 Cor 3: 10 -15
Hmm, that is funny... Your belief that we go by the Bible alone is nowhere explicit in Scripture. Why should my beliefs be?
Support your belief that the Bible is inspired.
Uncertaindrummer
Active Member
Oh but I do. I am asserting you are interpeting Scripture privately--which Scripture condemns.NetDoc said:
You are very arrogant. To think that you believe you are the only one who has the Holy Spirit. That is sickening, I am sorry. This kind of arrogance is clearly condemned in Scripture. Do you remember the Pharisee praying, thanking God he was not the Tax collector? Maybe you should go read that passage again.As for this:
I cannot answer that for you, but would encourage you to figure it out pronto!
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
You know Victor..
I haven't said this:
But that doesn't seem to stop you from ascribing this to me.
James 1:22Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. 23 Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror 24 and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25 But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing ithe will be blessed in what he does. NIV
If you want to learn how to understand, this is it: Just do it!
Can differences exist?
I Corinthians 11:17 In the following directives I have no praise for you, for your meetings do more harm than good. 18 In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it. 19 No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval. NIV
But there is nothing in that scripture about the "church" dictating what YOU have to believe. Now how does God show his approval???
I would suggest that the fruits of the Spirit might be a good place to start. What do you think?
I haven't said this:
Victor said:
But that doesn't seem to stop you from ascribing this to me.
James 1:22Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. 23 Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror 24 and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25 But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing ithe will be blessed in what he does. NIV
If you want to learn how to understand, this is it: Just do it!
Can differences exist?
I Corinthians 11:17 In the following directives I have no praise for you, for your meetings do more harm than good. 18 In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it. 19 No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval. NIV
But there is nothing in that scripture about the "church" dictating what YOU have to believe. Now how does God show his approval???
I would suggest that the fruits of the Spirit might be a good place to start. What do you think?
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
And you accuse ME of a private interpretation of the scriptures? This is merely extrapolation. BTW, since Peter tells them to REPENT and be BAPTISED (Acts 2:38), how do these little tykes repent?UD said:
I Corinthians 3:10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. NIV
Did I miss it? I don't see purgatory mentioned here. Maybe it's the wrong passage?
I didn't say in the Bible alone, though I am accused of it. I do believe in the Spirit as the counselor for ALL Christians.UD said:
But I see NO WHERE that any apostle tells us that the church can usurp what scriptures have to say. I only see the opposite.
Romans 15:1 We who are strong ought to bear with the failings of the weak and not to please ourselves. 2 Each of us should please his neighbor for his good, to build him up. 3 For even Christ did not please himself but, as it is written: "The insults of those who insult you have fallen on me." 4 For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.
5 May the God who gives endurance and encouragement give you a spirit of unity among yourselves as you follow Christ Jesus, 6 so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. NIV
Quiddity
UndertheInfluenceofGiants
I never said you did. I attached it to you because you had the idea that we follow men and you follow the Holy Spirit. As I said, this turns into a finger pointing match.
How far do you take these differences ND? Can we disagree on almost everything from the resurection to whether God exist or not? Is this how you interpret this?
Sure it does read the Council of Jerusalem NetDoc (Acts 15). Here let me paste it for you:
The Jerusalem Council
6Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. 7And when there had been much dispute, (Doesn't sound like they were agreeing) Peter rose up and said to them: "Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, (talking about himself) that by my mouth (who's mouth? Why not OUR mouth?) the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. (At this point he begins talking about the whole group) 8So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they."
12Then all the multitude kept silent and listened....
This is also how the RCC solves doctrinal disputes.
~Victor
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
Am I arogant because I don't ascribe to your beliefs? You don't even know me and yet have no compunction about passing judgement about my humility.UD said:
Now for you OWN edification... go back and find where I said that I "believe you are the only one who has the Holy Spirit". I look forward to an apology when you realise that you are in error IF you have any humility. I will expect only blameshifting and no apology if you are merely arrogant or petulant.
I'm sorry Scott, I expected more out of your "cavalry" than misrepresentations and anger.
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
Personally (good question, BTW), I feel that unless God spelled it out, we can disagree on it. If God (through the Scriptures) tells us to do it, then we should follow that. Remember we really only have two "biggies":
1) Love God
2) Love everyone else.
ALSO... they did not call themselves the "council at Jerusalem". That was added far later.
BTW, the elders decide how we do things in my church too! Even if I disagree with them, I still do things THEIR way.
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
Not nearly as much as UD...
In fact, I find your counterpoints very refreshing!
In fact, I find your counterpoints very refreshing!
Quiddity
UndertheInfluenceofGiants
So you can agree on almost everything then and be ok?NetDoc said:Personally (good question, BTW), I feel that unless God spelled it out, we can disagree on it. If God (through the Scriptures) tells us to do it, then we should follow that. Remember we really only have two "biggies":
1) Love God
2) Love everyone else.
ALSO... they did not call themselves the "council at Jerusalem". That was added far later.
BTW, the elders decide how we do things in my church too! Even if I disagree with them, I still do things THEIR way.
Why do you submit to your leaders if you have the Holy Spirit and the Bible? What do you get from that?
~Victor
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
UD...
How did I forget THIS scripture???
I Corinthians 4:6 Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not take pride in one man over against another. 7 For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not? NIV
Hebrews 13:15 Through Jesus, therefore, let us continually offer to God a sacrifice of praisethe fruit of lips that confess his name. 16 And do not forget to do good and to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased. 17 Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you. NIV
How did I forget THIS scripture???
I Corinthians 4:6 Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not take pride in one man over against another. 7 For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not? NIV
ANOTHER great question! Here is the scriptural answer:Victor the Noble said:
Hebrews 13:15 Through Jesus, therefore, let us continually offer to God a sacrifice of praisethe fruit of lips that confess his name. 16 And do not forget to do good and to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased. 17 Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you. NIV
glasgowchick
Gives Glory to God !!!
Is that so, your really don't know anything about me,so stop trying to judge me as a person..Like I have said,instead of saying what is not there try and see what is there..
Guess thats not in the bible either..
I agree with all that is said there but who told them to to this? who authority did they have ? The Lords ? Would that be the same Lord that forbids us to make for ourselves Idols..
Let me rephrase that..Why do you kneel infront of a statue to pray...They cannot hear you..Why would you kneel and pray infront of the statue in the first place so no I don't understand if you would like to explain, I pray to God in Jesus name..
You know the more you harp on about this, it's starting to sound like your wanting me to bow down to the church before you will except anything I say from Scripture..I feel I have already answered your question as to why I believe the Bible is the writen word of God, However You believe it is the word of God, Right ? That won't change what is written, Im not asking you to listen to me so there shouldn't be a problem on why I believe the bible..The fact is you have your reasons for believing it, is that not Good enough, would me having the same reasons as you change Scripture..No It Would not...When God says Do Not make images or molten Idols, was he kidding on..When God says Clearly in Scripture " Do Not"... "you must not" Then It is him we have to listen too and obey his commandments..Something you seem to chise to ignore..
Uncertaindrummer said: