- - Satanism and Atheism - -

Celestial Intellect · Jun 2, 2005

Satanism and Atheism, a baseless hoax:

Human logic only operates in division and separation. If there is only one reality then logic will not operate at all until, it differentiates that reality into many parts. So what if there is only one reality and you deny it?

Go to the: (World Philosophies / God in Islamic Philosophy) and read my article there, if you are a Satanist or Atheist then you will find a major attack on the very foundation of your religion. If you care, defend your ideas and challenge me here. I am amazed how still there are such old fashioned and baseless communities in the west. I am also amazed about the fact that believers in particular Christians have not shown you any true challenge. Do you really think that the old world with its 5000 years of history have not produced any rational argument for God the absolute, and that you should follow the early men 10000 years ago who believed in nothing!? Do you know Prophet Abraham? Well he was the first man who reached God without any religion through reasoning. 700 years ago Moslems were already proving the qualities of God and yet today many non-Moslems are still to believe in God.

My article is designed to be simple and efficient for all to understand, it is based on the Islamic Mystic Philosophy of Sadra. I have translated my understanding of this philosophy into English and added some of my own ideas, also my main obligation as a Moslem is to avoid any deviation from the oneness of Allah almighty and to my Moslem brothers I would like to say that, although they may consider the Mystic Philosophy of Sadra as kind of a Sufism it is not meant to escape the frame work of our grand religion. In fact every paragraph in there has passed the test of being in accordance with Quran, and what is more important than the oneness of God?

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Now let us begin; I presume that by now you have read my article (World Philosophies / God in Islamic Philosophy):

The first problem with Satanists and Atheists is that they have not understood themselves, and the nature of human mind. As a result most of their arguments are in distraction. Anyone who believes in parallel absolute values is wrong simply because he has not realised how logic invents a copy of Gods creation in mind; they live in the shadow of truth. If you have a problem with the word God, I will use the conscious absolute instead!

Anyone who says he has no religion is wrong; we as humans are imperfect and hence always we have to follow something! Anyone who speaks about neutrality and balance should know that, only the perfect can truly be neutral, the rest are needy.

To prevent anyone from playing with words I define the major ones right here:

Evil = whatever that destroys or endangers a system.
Good = whatever that preserves or improves a system.

By default and from the beginning the system/creation has always existed, while Evil can only be understood by taking away what is. Then how are you deluded?

Note: System can be a society or a computer or anything else that has a value and exists.

Do Satanists believe in absolute evil? Does this absolute evil create or destroy? Can nothingness and void be worthy of being a goal!?

If we assume that perchance evil could finally destroy the whole existence then evil would die out, because it needs good to be known, and yet good can do without evil!

Will you not understand the most basic human moral code that by default we are aware of and will you ask how do we define moral codes? Are you a human? If you are getting mad because Im questioning your humanity, then know that you are a human! It is just that you are in denial. If I kill you for your disbelieve you should be grateful because I have given you the ultimate goal that you have been seeking (the non-existence)! But in truth it is not the case, so dont go around and call yourself a Satanist, you are the worst example for the children who can end up following you. Stop this irrationality and accept the truth. Or perhaps you dont care about truth, and you seek power? Do you? Then look at the people who existed before you, they were stronger in numbers and wealthier than the likes of you, they are all dead!

Evil is self-destructive anyway, Im merely trying to warn you.
Does the freedom of expression help? Why would anyone let evil have any say!? Is it because they are rational? Is it rational to consider the human invention equal to the Gods creation?

As for atheist: Do they think that by questioning the prophethood of Jesus and Mohammad (peace is upon them) they can prove their own religion! Let us assume that God has not sent any messengers, does this prove that atheist are correct? As far as Ive seen, the unbelievers ideas are based on denial and proving other religions wrong yet claiming to be innocent, and since they have nothing sacred themselves, they also have not been attacked properly. Their ideas are purely based in denial of others belief, however if they claim that they believe in anything, let them say it here. Generally people who dont believe in anything fear anyone who genuinely believes in anything

Now have you got any reason for not believing in God? Bring them and present them here. People want to see how your vast intellectual capacity has managed to prove the 5000 years of human spiritual evolution wrong.

1- Will you start proving us wrong?

2- Or will you start from proving yourself right without needing to prove anyone else wrong!?

Whichever it is, go ahead!

Malus 12:9 · Jun 2, 2005

I didn't make any more sense of this post to when I saw it at the emulation site I frequent.

However, seeing it is in a RELIGIOUS site this time, I will answer it.

Celestial said:
Do Satanists believe in absolute evil? Can nothingness and void be worthy of being a goal!?

First allow me to show you a few rules that Satanists follow:
9. Do not harm little children
10. Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food

Now, they cannot be all evil, can they.

Celstial said:
Can nothingness and void be worthy of being a goal!?

I'd think better as to what I say there. How is Satanism being nothing. Do I detect a
hint of suggestion that Satanists shouldn't be satanists.

Celstial said:
If I kill you for your disbelieve you should be grateful because I have given you the ultimate goal that you have been seeking (the non-existence)!

WTF you on about. I am not one to seek non existance. If anything is evil it is that statement.

A hateful person will pick up The Satanic Bible and use it to justify hatred. A compassionate person will use it to understand Human Compassion and increase it within themselves.

Ormiston · Jun 2, 2005

I can't believe I'm going to respond to this, but here goes: BLAH BLAH BLAH. There you have it! All of my beliefs wrapped up into three words.

Neutrality is perfect? Well, I'm feeling better about myself already. Thank you.

Pah · Jun 2, 2005

As for atheist: Do they think that by questioning the prophethood of Jesus and Mohammad (peace is upon them) they can prove their own religion! Let us assume that God has not sent any messengers, does this prove that atheist are correct? As far as Ive seen, the unbelievers ideas are based on denial and proving other religions wrong yet claiming to be innocent, and since they have nothing sacred themselves, they also have not been attacked properly. Their ideas are purely based in denial of others belief, however if they claim that they believe in anything, let them say it here. Generally people who dont believe in anything fear anyone who genuinely believes in anything

I have nothing to fear from a man of faith nor from his God. The only fear I have is from the actions that might be taken against me in the name of that faith. The Christian God had his chance twice with me - his message was warped by his messangers. I discarded it and him, replacing him with an affinity for humanity of which you are part.

Magurk · Jun 3, 2005

Go to the: (World Philosophies / God in Islamic Philosophy) and read my article there, if you are a Satanist or Atheist then you will find a major attack on the very foundation of your religion. If you care, defend your ideas and challenge me here

Thats just it, the whole point of me and others being Aetheist is not to be challenged. Plus its not a relegion.

Mister Emu · Jun 3, 2005

Thats just it, the whole point of me and others being Aetheist is not to be challenged

You become an Atheist so as not to be challenged? Strange, you will most likely be challenged for the majority of your life.

Plus its not a relegion

Depends on how you define Religion.

Kotaro · Jun 3, 2005

wow, all this bashing and trolling over someone elses beliefs, celestial please. IT IS JUST A BELIEF, IT ISN'T GOING TO HARM YOU OR ANYONE ELSE. Any person or belief system that does not respect or at least tolerate other people's diverse beliefs and seeks to harm or destroy them without any solid explanation or understanding is nothing more than the opinion one who needs psychiatric help....

Tawn · Jun 3, 2005

Celestial Intellect said:
Go to the: (World Philosophies / God in Islamic Philosophy) and read my article there, if you are a Satanist or Atheist then you will find a major attack on the very foundation of your religion.

I did and found a weak baseless attack on an assumed belief system opposite to you own. You have (quite correctly) outlined a few reasons why duality in nature doesnt exist and why infinite regression should exist too.. which I concur with.. however you wrongly imply that the Satanists and Atheists hold the opposite to be true.

Example:
after outlining why duality doesnt exist you say this:

Remember that many of the above comments are scientific facts.

Then later in your 'attack'.. you go on to say:

Due to the illusion of duality, most of the scientists are wondering around in distraction.

This shows a blatant misrepresentation of what scientists believe. If a lack of duality is scientific fact then how can you say that scientists believe in duality - dont scientists listen to their own factual claims?

No this pretty much sums up your argument. You falsely claim that science/atheism and satanism believe certain things, then correctly disprove these things and then go on to manipulate this to mean that your belief in God must be true. The connection between these things and you God is very poorly explained. It rests more on the apparent flaw in the scientists thinking than your belief having proof in itself..

I am also amazed about the fact that believers in particular Christians have not shown you any true challenge.

I am amazed that you think your challenge is in any way challenging. I have heard far, far better arguments for the existance of God from Christians.

The first problem with Satanists and Atheists is that they have not understood themselves, and the nature of human mind. As a result most of their arguments are in distraction. Anyone who believes in parallel absolute values is wrong simply because he has not realised how logic invents a copy of Gods creation in mind; they live in the shadow of truth. If you have a problem with the word God, I will use the conscious absolute instead!

You see? You mistakingly assume Atheists and Satanists believe in parallel opposite values.

Anyone who says he has no religion is wrong; we as humans are imperfect and hence always we have to follow something! Anyone who speaks about neutrality and balance should know that, only the perfect can truly be neutral, the rest are needy.

Depends on the definition of religion. Humans are imperfect, ill go with that.

To prevent anyone from playing with words I define the major ones right here:

Evil = whatever that destroys or endangers a system.
Good = whatever that preserves or improves a system.

:bonk: You say you dont believe in Duality, yet by accepting these ideas of Good/Evil you have created an illusion of duality.
Why only create/destroy? Where do replication, extension, manipulation and simplification fit into this? If I simplify something to make it better and more efficient am I destroying or creating or both? No, you should follow your own beliefs on duality first before displaying such a simplistic duality to explain good/evil.
Even then - Who says your definition is correct?

Do Satanists believe in absolute evil? Does this absolute evil create or destroy? Can nothingness and void be worthy of being a goal!?

Im not going to comment on Satanism - because I cannot - suffice to say you probably are assuming they believe things which they dont.

As for atheist: Do they think that by questioning the prophethood of Jesus and Mohammad (peace is upon them) they can prove their own religion!

Atheism doesnt seek to prove itself. It just asserts itself as the most sensible position to be in when all other faiths are unproven. Belief requires a basis. Lack of belief is what you have when no belief systems provide a justified basis for belief.

As far as Ive seen, the unbelievers ideas are based on denial and proving other religions wrong yet claiming to be innocent, and since they have nothing sacred themselves, they also have not been attacked properly.

Yes exactly.

Their ideas are purely based in denial of others belief,

Wow. A Theist who understands Atheism!

however if they claim that they believe in anything, let them say it here. Generally people who dont believe in anything fear anyone who genuinely believes in anything

Atheism is a lack of belief. Any beliefs that an Atheist does hold (Which we all do) will not necessarily be concurrent with other Atheists.. it is not a part of Atheism.
Your last statement is untrue.

Now have you got any reason for not believing in God?

Yes. The fact that there is no reason FOR believing in God.

Bring them and present them here. People want to see how your vast intellectual capacity has managed to prove the 5000 years of human spiritual evolution wrong.

Interesting you use the word 'evolution'. Are you suggesting that these beliefs have developed over time? Surely a God would impart his teachings to his faithful all at once?
Anyhow, I need to prove nothing. You need to show me what proof of God I cannot deny.. My assertion is that the various holy books around were written by people who didnt have things like science to explain why clouds form and why thunder strikes.. they quite naturally used metaphysics to explain these things since it was the only set of answers available.

1-Will you start proving us wrong?

Will you start proving yourself right?

2-Or will you start from proving yourself right without needing to prove anyone else wrong!?

Well hang on - this is what you are doing now.
Listen, Atheism isnt a position of saying 'God does not exist'. Atheism is about saying 'I do not know if God exists or not - therefore I withhold belief'.
If I say theres a purple monster called geoff who lives on the far side of the moon - am I proven correct because you cannot go to the moon and prove me wrong? No. You withold belief until I can show you some evidence of Geoff. That doesnt make me wrong about Geoff.. it just means the burden of proof is upon me.
Likewise, just because you (seemingly) cannot prove God doesnt mean God does not exist. However, theres no reason for me to believe he does until you show me some evidence.

Pah · Jun 3, 2005

Kotaro said:
wow, all this bashing and trolling over someone elses beliefs, celestial please. IT IS JUST A BELIEF, IT ISN'T GOING TO HARM YOU OR ANYONE ELSE. Any person or belief system that does not respect or at least tolerate other people's diverse beliefs and seeks to harm or destroy them without any solid explanation or understanding is nothing more than the opinion one who needs psychiatric help....

A belief or faith, per se, is not harmful. The behavior expressing that faith can be. The theocratic trend from some segments of Christianity is harmful to the ideals of the American Constitution.

Malus 12:9 · Jun 3, 2005

I have seen this same post on several sites, mostly non-religious ones.

Many Islamic people misunderstand Satanism.Satan only symbolises what Satanists want to reach. Satan represents things. They do follow spirits and summon them for help however. to them Satan is one big metaphor.

Are you sure you just do not have a grudge against the people that live in the north of Syria and Iraq called Yazidis?

First of all Celestial, I know you probably will not reply, because you are known
to post-and-run these topics quite frequently. Let me say this is a MULTI religious site. Many different religions (including Satanists)frequent this forum. This is not a ground to force others in to what you believe.

celestial said:
Do Satanists believe in absolute evil? Does this absolute evil create or destroy? Can nothingness and void be worthy of being a goal!?

For the second time around..NO

celestial said:
Evil is self-destructive anyway, Im merely trying to warn you.

Oh dear, I'm going to die. With laughter. Thanks for the warning, I'll spread it.

Celestial said:
Now have you got any reason for not believing in God? Bring them and present them here. People want to see how your vast intellectual capacity has managed to prove the 5000 years of human spiritual evolution wrong

People will believe what they want to believe. You're only pissing people off.

Celestial said:
2-Or will you start from proving yourself right without needing to prove anyone else wrong!?

You're more assuming you are right, and the people that also follow your beliefs are
right, and that everyone should listen and say.."Hey, he's right." "Good point!"

PS: Tawn has covered everything else of concern. TY.

Baseless hoax?Satan only symbolises what Satanists want to reach.

Baseless my butt.

michel · Jun 3, 2005

I'm sorry, but I'm not even going to read that diatribe.........

Malus 12:9 · Jun 3, 2005

Why is it acceptable today to despise and be intollerant of Satanists,
yet say the same for Islams and some of you cry foul, even calling
people who hate Islam racist (I still dont see how you work that one out)

Tawn · Jun 3, 2005

michel said:
I'm sorry, but I'm not even going to read that diatribe.........

Good idea, dont waste your time.. just read my comments and youll have the jist.

Celestial Intellect · Jun 3, 2005

The first thing you should know is that I am not the most potent adversary out there and my understanding is limited comparing to many believers who can probably provide better arguments.

Your posts are all inefficient and insufficient by mostly intellectually lazy people, except the post of Tawn perhaps, at least he has read my unfinished article more or less. As I have mentioned before I was going to talk about Intellect and Intelligible to prove my theory.
So my article is/was not completely finished; although it is well covering the primary issues that need one to understand God. As long as you differentiate the conscious absolute you can not believe in him.

Satanist should know that the word Satan or Shaytan is not really a friendly word in other religions; if they seek no conflict with other religions they should choose a different name for their primitive ideas! As long as they call themselves Satanist they are the enemies of any believer, and a poison to the society in which the majority are believers.
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This shows a blatant misrepresentation of what scientists believe. If a lack of duality is scientific fact then how can you say that scientists believe in duality - dont scientists listen to their own factual claims?

Nope! Scientist who look for the fundamental particle and who look for antimatter and antigravity are wrong!

The problem with you and the likes of you is that you think science is contrary to religion which is not true.

You can look at scientific facts while not being aware of illusion of duality which causes you to seek for the opposing force. While if you are aware of it you look at the same fact knowing that there is no opposing forces! And that any opposing force is of the same nature

You fail to understand a very fine line here and you attempt to put your own words in my text! The point is that scientists dont believe, they are simply unaware of illusion of duality and I have never said that scientists believe in anything or they dont.in my own words: "Scientists may interpret the signs that they discover differently"

...To perceive diffrently...

You say you dont believe in Duality, yet by accepting these ideas of Good/Evil you have created an illusion of duality.

There is no inconsistency in my words! I have never said that we are not logical beings and that we have to stop thinking. We have to still define words! However we must know that we do invent many concepts that they dont actually exists! Evil and Good are both on one line and that line is called existence! I have clearly shown this in my article though not in here. Good is the gods creation while evil is human invention and furthermore it is the lack of good! There is no rush! Read again!

Interesting you use the word 'evolution'. Are you suggesting that these beliefs have developed over time? Surely a God would impart his teachings to his faithful all at once?

Am I saying that we knew all about philosophy and science from the beginning!? We wrote down our ideas and we used these writings to advance, yes I believe in spiritual evolution, maybe a better word would be progression. You cant expect me as an Iranian to speak perfect English do you? In dictionary they all mean the same. Nevertheless I can challenge you!
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Wait for my next post...

Fluffy · Jun 3, 2005

Heya Celestial Intellect,

If you think that there is such a full proof argument against Satanism and Atheism, why do you think each of these are so prevalent in the Western World where freedom of information, and so easy access to such an argument, would be easy. Furthermore, assuming that the people on this board will have seen such an argument before, as befits its revolutionary status, why do you believe you have a better chance of convincing them?

Lastly, why do you wish to convince them?

Tawn · Jun 3, 2005

Celestial Intellect said:
Nope! Scientist who look for the fundamental particle and who look for antimatter and antigravity are wrong!

Refer to what im saying. You accept, for example, the non-duality of hot and cold as a scientific fact and then claim scientists are under the illusion of duality.. there are no scientists who believe in hot/cold duality. This is where you argument is misrepresentative..
As for anti-matter.. whats the harm in 'looking'? Thats what science is about.

The problem with you and the likes of you is that you think science is contrary to religion which is not true.

Perhaps you should develop the habit of asking people what they believe before telling them theyre wrong about something they dont believe. I know science isnt contrary to religion.. thats bloody obvious.. tell the Creationists that who attack evolution with absolute hatred. Evolutionists are just searching for answers - not trying to deliberately attack God-belief.

You can look at scientific facts while not being aware of illusion of duality which causes you to seek for the opposing force. While if you are aware of it you look at the same fact knowing that there is no opposing forces! And that any opposing force is of the same nature

Hang on. Believing there is no duality is also an assumption. The rational approach would be to not assume there is or isnt duality. Any scientist worth his merit would test from both angles.

The point is that scientists dont believe, they are simply unaware of illusion of duality

So how do you know this? Thats a bold claim.

However we must know that we do invent many concepts that they dont actually exists! Evil and Good are both on one line and that line is called existence!
Good is the gods creation while evil is human invention and furthermore it is the lack of good! There is no rush! Read again!

Hang on.. im not getting you. First you say that we invent things that dont exist (and I think good/evil is a classic case of this). Then you say good is gods work and evil is mans.. but if good and evil are invented by man then the arguments about good and evil are meaningless.. right??

Am I saying that we knew all about philosophy and science from the beginning!?
We wrote down our ideas and we used these writings to advance, yes I believe in spiritual evolution, maybe a better word would be progression. You cant expect me as an Iranian to speak perfect English do you? In dictionary they all mean the same. Nevertheless I can challenge you!

No sorry I just found it amusing thats all.

Celestial Intellect · Jun 3, 2005

Refer to what im saying. You accept, for example, the non-duality of hot and cold as a scientific fact and then claim scientists are under the illusion of duality.. there are no scientists who believe in hot/cold duality. This is where you argument is misrepresentative..
As for anti-matter.. whats the harm in 'looking'? Thats what science is about.

The harm is where you completely overlook the illusion of duality and the oneness of existence; the only thing that I have claimed concerning the scientists is that they may misinterpret the signs. Long ago in ancient times people thought that heat and cold were different, but finally it was proven. What about other scientific issues like matter and anti-mater? Isnt it the same illusion of duality? Because this kind of illusion doesnt happen when we are talking about horse and human! It only happens when we are talking about opposing things!

Hang on.. im not getting you. First you say that we invent things that dont exist (and I think good/evil is a classic case of this). Then you say good is gods work and evil is mans.. but if good and evil are invented by man then the arguments about good and evil are meaningless.. right??

There is contradiction in your own question. It is easy for you to ask misleading and wrong questions, yet you look like an emasculated camel in the case of seeking the truth and answers! I am surprised that you removed your previous signature! It was saying that belief is a circular logic, believe and you will believe is it a mere coincidence that after arguing with me and reading my article you decided to remove it?

The truth is that you will not believe in God until you get out of the endless logical arguments, not the other way aroundTo argue means to differentiate, and you can differentiate the universe again and again and again to seek that fundamental particle of yours but you will never find it! In fact the more you differentiate the more pieces you will have to play with and the further you will get from truth. Science without religion is pure arrogance and denial. It is to deny the oneness of existence and to claim that there is a logical reason for existence of universe, since you really like the cause and effect idea But do you think that God has created you self-sufficient enough to take over! Hahhahha Will you not see? Existence of God has no reason! He has always been and will be and logic will not reach it, all you have to do is to know yourself and the oneness of universe and then get out of the circular logic; this way you surrender and you submit to his will, then you will seek knowledge knowing that it is God who teach us.

Or perhaps you can wait for the rest of your life denying God and Theists, without having any progression whatsoever, wasting your time in endless logical arguments while the answer is evident and not logical.

Do you agree with Illusion of duality?
Do you agree that the universe is continues, (things like: pressure, heat, force, etc)
Do you agree that fundamental particle can not exist?
Do you agree that everything can not be created out of nothing?
Do you agree that unconscious can not create conscious?
Do you agree that existence is evident and beyond human comprehension?

If you understand all these points then you can not deny God! I will gladly write multiple pages on each one.
Your problem is that you think you understand faith and you think that the purpose of religion is to prove god! While this is not true, the purpose of religion is to accept God and there is no argument for God he is the evident.

Ormiston · Jun 3, 2005

Celestial Intellect said:
The harm is where you completely overlook the illusion of duality and the oneness of existence; the only thing that I have claimed concerning the scientists is that they may misinterpret the signs. Long ago in ancient times people thought that heat and cold were different, but finally it was proven. What about other scientific issues like matter and anti-mater? Isnt it the same illusion of duality? Because this kind of illusion doesnt happen when we are talking about horse and human! It only happens when we are talking about opposing things!

There is contradiction in your own question. It is easy for you to ask misleading and wrong questions, yet you look like an emasculated camel in the case of seeking the truth and answers! I am surprised that you removed your previous signature! It was saying that belief is a circular logic, believe and you will believe is it a mere coincidence that after arguing with me and reading my article you decided to remove it?

The truth is that you will not believe in God until you get out of the endless logical arguments, not the other way aroundTo argue means to differentiate, and you can differentiate the universe again and again and again to seek that fundamental particle of yours but you will never find it! In fact the more you differentiate the more pieces you will have to play with and the further you will get from truth. Science without religion is pure arrogance and denial. It is to deny the oneness of existence and to claim that there is a logical reason for existence of universe, since you really like the cause and effect idea But do you think that God has created you self-sufficient enough to take over! Hahhahha Will you not see? Existence of God has no reason! He has always been and will be and logic will not reach it, all you have to do is to know yourself and the oneness of universe and then get out of the circular logic; this way you surrender and you submit to his will, then you will seek knowledge knowing that it is God who teach us.

Or perhaps you can wait for the rest of your life denying God and Theists, without having any progression whatsoever, wasting your time in endless logical arguments while the answer is evident and not logical.

Do you agree with Illusion of duality?
Do you agree that the universe is continues, (things like: pressure, heat, force, etc)
Do you agree that fundamental particle can not exist?
Do you agree that everything can not be created out of nothing?
Do you agree that unconscious can not create conscious?
Do you agree that existence is evident and beyond human comprehension?

If you understand all these points then you can not deny God! I will gladly write multiple pages on each one.
Your problem is that you think you understand faith and you think that the purpose of religion is to prove god! While this is not true, the purpose of religion is to accept God and there is no argument for God he is the evident.

How about "Gods are evident"? The only thing evident to me is that you THINK you know more than you do.

Your problem is that you think you understand what others think. I think I've finally put it together: make jest of man's efforts to truly understand and then scream God at his failures. You truly are a man of principle.

Celestial Intellect · Jun 3, 2005

In the very beginning of my Article I've mentioned that only a few will understand what is being said here and the rest will remain in the endless cycle of differentiation. This was what I had in mind from the very start.

If you understand the oneness of existence you will not believe in multiple Gods.

Ormiston · Jun 3, 2005

Celestial Intellect said:
In the very beginning of my Article I've mentioned that only a few will understand what is being said here and the rest will remain in the endless cycle of differentiation. This was what I had in mind from the very start.

If you understand the oneness of existence you will not believe in multiple Gods.

I understand something that could feasibly be called the "oneness of existence" and I don't believe in any gods.

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