Hi Runt.
You said, "You don't think Buddha and his teachings were a historical actuality?"
Forgive me, but that's not what i said!
I said that the various traditions of a ' world saviour', or such a figure who brings salvation to the world, (through physical self-sacrifice) are non-historical, yet are based on the promise (revelation) of God that such a 'world saviour' would indeed come, opening the way back to eternity.
Only a Buddhist, perhaps, could except the non-existence of the Buddha's teaching. It would be absurd, however, for me to do so, so here goes...
...Beneath the Bodhi tree the future-buddha entered four subsequent states of meditation, and from these, he remembered his previous lives and gained understanding of the processes of samsara that all forms of life are subject to. He saw that the cause of rebirth was ignorance which would only cease when the need for sense-pleasures were quenched. As his ignorance of the truth was dispelled he was set free, and seeing things as they truly are, he became an enlightened being. A Buddha.
After the Buddha had singlehandedly found the path that leads to freedom, he returned to his former ascetic companions and shared with them the truth (Dharma/Damma) of his discovery, at the deer park in Benares. This was the setting for his first sermon known as the Dhamma-cakka-pavattana sutta, which means 'discourse on the setting in motion the wheel of truth'. The Buddha revealed the Four Noble Truths concerning Dukkha/Duhkha, a word, originally sanskrit, that can be translated as meaning 'suffering' or alternatively as 'anguish', 'unsatisfactoriness' or 'ill'.
The first noble truth is that the nature of existence, as experienced by all living things is suffering. this truth was the cause of the Buddha's initial agitation when he first encountered old age, disease, and death. Everything that is born is subject to decay and death and is therefore recognized as 'Anicca', that is, impermanent. within samsara all are fated to suffer this process repeatedly, not only in this world, but also in the other various levels of existence that can be both heavenly and hellish, the destination determined by an individuals particular karma. Greed, Hatred, and Delusion, being specific to the nature of samsara, are also states of suffering.
Both dukkha and anicca are categorized as two of the 'three marks of conditioned existence', the third being 'Anatta' or 'no-self'. According to Buddhism the individual self is not really a 'self' at all but an illusionary construct of five aggregates known as Skhandhas/skandas. these are; 1)Rupa (form); 2) Vedana (feeling); 3) Sanna (perception); 4) Sankaras (skilled or unskilled actions or tendencies); and 5) Vinnana (consciousness). It is these skandas, in interaction with one another, that are to be understood as being subject to samsara rather than the individual, who does not really exist.
In a Buddhist text known as 'Milinda's Questions' the body is likened to a chariot. Here, the monk Nagasena demonstates for the benefit of the inquiring King Milinda that as the individual parts of the 'self' do not contain the 'self' within themselves, then "How can there be a self?", when the individual parts are viewed collectively? Likewise, the seperate parts of a chariot have no 'chariot' within them, so how is it that a chariot exists when the parts are connected? The answer is "there is no chariot" and similarly neither is there a self. the 'self' is merely a convenient label of no real substance (Horner, I.B 'trans', in Beckerlegge, 2001, p.349-51). And so, the individual is seen as anatta.
The second noble truth concerns the cause, or 'Uprising', of suffering. Dukkha is born from ignorance and perpetuated through our desire for sense-pleasures. Existence is perceived as a series of conditions that function within a wheel of cause and effect known as Paticcasamuppada, which means 'Dependent Origination' or 'Conditional Arising'. It is all wrong desires that keep the wheel turning. As all wrong desires have adverse causes, they also have adverse effects, which in turn become causes of more forms of suffering. The Buddha regarded individuals to be 'on fire' through their attachment to objects of desire (Horner, I.B 'trans', in Beckerlegge, 2001, p.344). In feeding the flames of the senses, we perpetuate the false belief that we are real, and as we persist in 'Ever-Becoming' samsara retains its awful hold:
If this is, that comes to be;
From the arising of this, that arise;
However;
If this is not, that does not come to be;
From the stopping of this, that is stopped
'Majjhima-Nikaya 2.32' (Horner, B.I 'trans', in Zaehner, R.C, 'ed', 2001, p.277)
With the third noble truth the Dharma of Buddhism makes the transition from darkness to light as it reveals, optimistically, that there is an end to suffering. By dispelling ignorance and quenching the flames of sense-desire, the realm of conditional existence, along with all impermanence and suffering that distinquishes it, can be transcended:
There is an island which you cannot go beyond. It is a place of nothingness, a place of non-possession and of non-attachment. It is the total end of death and decay, and this is why i call it Nibbana (the extinquished, the cool).
'Kappas Question in the Sutta-Nipata'
(Saddhatissa. H, in Beckerlegge, 2001, p.349)
The root meaning of Nirvana, or Nibbana, is to 'blow out' such as the blowing out of a fire. The word 'skanda' means 'heap' or 'bundle' and can refer to a bundle of wood. As already mentioned, the burning of individuals by their desire for sense-objects has them caught up in samsara and a state of ever-becoming. the skandas which constitute the self, or rather, the no-self, can be compared to a burning bundle of wood that needs to be extinquished (units 11-13, 2001, p.29). And when the desires for sense-objects are 'blown out' Nirvana is attained.
The fourth noble truth is the path that is to be followed if there is to be an end of suffering. It is the practice of Buddhism Itself, known as the Eight-Fold Way, which is often divided into three categories. these are:
A) wisdom. which includes, 1) perfect understanding and 2) perfect resolve, which are both related to a correct knowledge and application of the Buddha's teachings in the life of an individual.
B) morality, which includes, 3) perfect speech, that is, talking in a kind and truthful manner, and 4) Perfect action by dealing honestly with others and avoiding sense-pleasure. Also 5) perfect livelihood, that is, earning an honest living that doesn't exploit other human beings or cater for sense-pleasures.
C) mental discipline, which includes 6) Perfect effort, which is the development and maintenance of skilled mental states and ridding oneself of unskilled mental states; 7) perfect mindfulness of the body, feelings, mind and mental states, and finally 8) perfect concentration, which is to be acheived through the disipline of 'Jhana', that is, meditaion...
...The forth noble truth is also known as the Middle Way. Buddhist meditation should conform with the middle way, as reflected in the legend of the Buddha when he positioned himself beneath the tree of awakening. the mind needs to be balanced if the realm of extremes is to be transcended. the middle way lies "between the two extremes of self-indulgence..." as reflected in the person of Siddhartha the prince, "...and self-torture" as reflected in the person of Siddhartha the emaciated ascetic (Horner, I.B, in Zaehner R.C 'ed', 2001,p.271). The Hindu practice of extreme self-denial, that was, and continues to be performed by ascetics in the pursuit of Moksha/Mukti was rejected by the Buddha. Such overt zelousness is concidered to be without true value, as is indifference towards spiritual attainment. However, individuals must apply themselves to the way of the Buddha, and are encouraged to investigate spiritual matters for themselves, and not blindly accept what a prestigious teacher may claim, out of respect. It is when you know the truth yourself, that it is to be accepted (Woodward, F.L 'trans', 'Kalama Sutta' in Beckerlegge, 2001, p.348). Also, the monastic lifestyle can be viewed as embodying the principle of the middle way. For two and a half millennia it has remained the prefered enviroment conducive to the attainment of Nirvana. Harvey observes that it lies between the extremes of a reclusive existence and the life of a brahmanic householder (Unit 11-13,2001,p.14-15).
Concerning the four noble truths, cousins tells us that " the first truth is to be 'fully comprehended'; the second is to be 'abandoned'; the third is to be 'made visible'; the fourth is to be 'brought into being' (Units 11-13, 2001, p.30). It is for the transformation from a negative to a positive state that the path of Buddhism is the be followed. It requires the rejection of what is unskilful and the cultivation of what is skillful, such as generosity, compassion for all beings, and wisdom (the opposites of greed, hatred, and delusion mentioned above). It is a path that leads to calm, balance and detatchment from desire, and the indescribable Nirvana that awaits beyond.
(from an assignment entitled 'In what sense is Buddhism a path or way? Why is it called the middle way?' by D.T June 2002)
The Mythological Continuum passes through both the 'biography' and teachings of the Buddha. But i would object that the Buddha is the fortold 'world saviour' (a prophecy that exists both inside as well as outside the O.T) largely on the basis that he didn't suffer a physical death, which appears to be an integral part of the original message. In Buddhism the 'Protevangelium' was reinterpreted in a purely psychological sense.
The Buddha was said to of gained enlightenment FIXED beneath the Bodhi TREE, SELFLESSLY attaining the secret wisdom concerning the truth about SUFFERING. an 'iconic' image which pre-dates the Buddha, and part (without question) of the mythological lore of the 'world saviour'. Similarly, Jesus FIXED upon a cross (elsewhere called a TREE) SELFLESSLY SUFFERED for us all ( and in our place), and thereby obtained the boon of eternal life and all the riches of heaven, which he is ever-willing to share with us!
Who, though he was in the form of God,
Did not regard equality with God
As something to be exploited,
But emptied himself,
Taking the form of a slave,
Being born in human likeness
And being found in human form,
He humbled himself
And became obedient to the point of death-
Even death on a Cross.
Therefore God also highly exalted him
And gave him the name
That is above every name (compare Isaiah 42:eight)
So that at the name of Jesus
Every knee should bend, (compare Isaiah 45:23)
In heaven and on earth and under the earth,
And every tongue confess (Isaiah 45:23)
That Jesus Christ is Lord,
To the glory of God the Father.
(Philippians 2:6-11, N.R.S.V Bold mine
Jesus fits the 'iconic' image, because he is its fulfillment. And he fits it better than the Buddha, wouldn't you agree?
Buddha taught that when ALL desire ceases so shall suffering. The Biblical record (from Genesis onwards) teaches that self-centred, that is, non-God centred desires cause suffering, and create an impenetrable barrier of sin which we cannot by ourselves break down.
...after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death (James 1:15, N.I.V)
Only Jesus can remove the barrier of sin. Only Jesus can re-align, if you like, our desires, so that they can once again be united with God's desires. Godly desire is beautiful. it created the universe. I think the Buddha goes to far. Buddha does, however, acknowledge the original problem that was responsible for our separation from God in the garden of Bliss (nirvana to the Buddha), yet gives no credible expaination as to why or even how, such a division occured, this is because, i think, it is a panthiestic-based Belief system. Why should/would/could a state of perfection deliberately currupt itself?
The Buddha appears to be in the 'solar/lunar' tradition of Gilgamesh, by way of Proto-'Shiva' whose meditative iconic posture (the sleeping God?), was also known to Celtic europe. King Buddha was a descendent of the sun, and his emblem, a six or eight spoked wheel, was originally a solar wheel. His city was Kapilavastu, home to the sage Kapila, whose solar eye had the power (wrath-bliss) to reduce men to ashes. In the Mahayana tradition the Buddha's 'lunar' nature comes in the form of the ever-compassionate Bodhisattva chained (fixed) by choice, to the ever-turning wheel of rebirth. As to his 'solar' nature he has forever attained Nirvana, never to return.
You also said "people actually have proof Buddha existed... there is no actual proof that Jesus did, (though I personally believe he did)..."
I cannot except this. Allthough i'm not entirely sure what it is that you mean by 'proof' regarding the Buddha. Stupafied relics? Surely you don't mean that?
you also mention concerning Jesus, "the true tales of his wise teachings". Maybe someone should start a topic concerning Jesus teachings, to see if a greater message can be found than what is enshrined in the Bible. I doubt a greater teaching could, or ever will, exist, but its definitely worthy of discussion and sounds like it could be fun.
Jesus was believed to be God by 1st Century Christians, and was in no way deified, by way of 'pagan' myth, by the early Roman Catholic Church of the 4th Century onwards. Outside of the watchtower society, i don't know of anyone who accepts that.
"many religious historians believe that the death and resurrection legends were first associated with Attis, many centuries before Christ"
I doubt any direct link can be made between any specific 'pagan' God and Jesus. I'm not aware of any religious historians that would assert this, but it would be interesting to hear what they have to say on the matter.
That Christianity absorbed pagan festivals (well after the N.T was written) in various parts of the then known world is a fact I wouldn't want to deny.
"myths about the death of Jesus"
I'm sure you don't mean that Jesus death (by crucifixion) was a myth. Overall, it is accepted, on the basis of all the availible evidence from numerous sources, that Jesus was put to death. it is also likely that this was because he claimed to be the Anointed One, and was therefore condemned for being a messianic pretender (Hutchinson living faiths, p.42). The resurrection however, being in nature a miraculous event requires, undestandingly, evidence that is above generaly excepted standards. there is one way of proving that the resurrection power of Jesus is real...
I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritence in the saints, and his uncomparably great power for us who believe. that power is like the working of his mighty strengh, which he exertrd in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all... not only in this age but also in the one to come. And God placed everything under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fulness of him who fills everything in every way.
(pauls letter to the Ephesians 1:18-23 N.I.V)
"The kingdom of Heaven is within you". Jesus said that.
He's waiting in all our hearts. He wants to prove himself to us all. We've just gotta give him the chance!
Goodnight and God Bless.
P.S The Phrygian myth concerning the Goddess Cybele and Attis (was he considered to be a god? most likely.) begins with the God Zeus who manages to impregnate the earth (Cybele is identified with the Earth Goddess Rhea), while he slept (the sleeping motif again. what does it mean?), resulting in the birth of the hermaphrodite (the androgynous god. divine union?) Cybele, called Agdistis. The gods castrate Cybele (compare titans who devoured Zagreus. also compare the gods who sacrificed Purusha), and an almond tree grows from her severed male genitals (compare Herodotus 1.108). Nana (human manifestation of Cybele i suppose), the daughter of a river god, becomes pregnant with the boy Attis after she picks an almond from the tree and it enters her womb. Eventually Attis reaches manhood and the ALL-Female Cybele falls in love with him. Unfortunately Attis is betrothed to a daughter of King Pessinus, and so the jealous Cybele sends Attis into an insane frenzy whereby he castrates himself and dies. full of remorse, Cybele decrees that Attis' body shall never decay, or according to another tradition, Attis is transformed into the evergreen pine tree. According to another tradition (which i haven't as yet been able to verify, although it comes from a pretty good source) Cybele "brought him back to life".
