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Do you believe that the flood actually happened

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Just in case the "10's of cm/day" doesn't seem pertinent, 10's of cm/day can be reasonably taken as some number between 10cm/day and 100cm/day, so let's pick one - say 60 cm/day. Mt. Ararat (for example) is roughly 5,165 meters above sea level. With these values, we should be able to get our Ark to safety in slightly under 24 years. I sure hope those animals don't breed too often!
 

Druidus

Keeper of the Grove
http://www.libertygospeltracts.com/question/prequest/flood.htm

Genesis 7:4 says, "For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth FORTY DAYS AND FORTY NIGHTS; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth." It rained for 40 days and 40 nights, and the fountains of the deep were opened up: that is what caused the whole earth to be flooded. Genesis 7:10-12 says "And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth. In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights." Genesis 7:17-21 says, "And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth. And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters. And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered. Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered. And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man."

The waters of the flood started to go down, and the ark rested on the mountains after 5 months had passed. Genesis 7:24-8:5 says, "And THE WATERS PREVAILED UPON THE EARTH AN HUNDRED AND FIFTY DAYS. And God remembered Noah, and every living thing, and all the cattle that was with him in the ark: and God made a wind to pass over the earth, and the waters asswaged; The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained; And the waters returned from off the earth continually: and AFTER THE END OF THE HUNDRED AND FIFTY DAYS THE WATERS WERE ABATED. AND THE ARK RESTED IN THE SEVENTH MONTH, on the seventeenth day of the month, UPON THE MOUNTAINS OF ARARAT. And the waters decreased continually until the tenth month: in the tenth month, on the first day of the month, were the tops of the mountains seen."

For the time table, please notice Noah’s age when the flood started. Genesis 7:11 says, "In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, IN THE SECOND MONTH, THE SEVENTEENTH DAY OF THE MONTH, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened." Genesis 8:4 says, "And the ark rested in THE SEVENTH MONTH, ON THE SEVENTEENTH DAY OF THE MONTH, upon the mountains of Ararat." That is exactly 5 months.

The previous verse was only saying that the BOTTOM OF THE ARK had rested upon the mountains at the 5 month point, but as Genesis 8:5 says, the tops of the mountains could not be seen until about 2 1/2 months later, "And the waters decreased continually until THE TENTH MONTH: in the tenth month, ON THE FIRST DAY OF THE MONTH, WERE THE TOPS OF THE MOUNTAINS SEEN." So that would make the flood about 7 1/2 months long before the mountains could be seen.

Genesis 8:13 says, "And it came to pass in THE SIX HUNDREDTH AND FIRST YEAR, IN THE FIRST MONTH, THE FIRST DAY OF THE MONTH, THE WATERS WERE DRIED UP FROM OFF THE EARTH: and Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and, behold, THE FACE OF THE GROUND WAS DRY."

Notice that THE FACE of the ground was dry, that is, there was NO STANDING WATER seen. This would have been about the 10 1/2 month point since the flood began, but the ground was still soggy, and so God did not tell them to leave the ark until a little later.

Genesis 8:14-16 says, "And in THE SECOND MONTH, ON THE SEVEN AND TWENTIETH DAY OF THE MONTH, WAS THE EARTH DRIED. And God spake unto Noah, saying, Go forth of the ark, thou, and thy wife, and thy sons, and thy sons' wives with thee." Notice this time that it is not just the FACE of the earth, but the EARTH (the ground) that is truly dry. Now Adam and Eve and their family could walk around without getting their feet all soggy and wet, and they could sit down on the ground without getting all wet.

So the flood began when Noah was 600 years old, in the second month, and the 17th day. They were allowed to get back off of the ark when Noah was 601 years old, in the second month, and the 27th day. So once the flood started, until the time when the ground was truly dry again, it was 1 year and 10 days. That is the length of the flood, 1 year and 10 days.


Let's get back to the point. I claim that the biblical story of Noah's flood is utterly impossible, largely inconsistant with reality, and likely is the culmination of a series of exaggerations based upon a real flood. I have backed up this claim with logic. I would like to see this logic refuted, if you have the ability.

I'm willing to believe in this biblical story as fact, if you can prove it's factual basis. If you cannot do that, I am willing to believe in it's possible factual basis, if you can prove to me that it was a possibility.

First off, explain to me how the ecosystem was destroyed (remember, all plants are gone except phyto-plankton). Explain how freshwater still exists. Explain the genetic diversity that exists within each individual species, and contrast that with how many generations you can go through inbreeding the same family (you won't get far). Explain how the ark could possibly have even held the elephants. If you do that, eaxplain the rhinos and hippos next. Explain what happened to amphibians, who needed both water and land to survive. Explain how Noah gathered the animals from the various continents, especially in only seven days.

Good luck.
 

BUDDY

User of Aspercreme
Druidus said:
I did say a year. And I will explain it again:

Genesis 7:11

11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

Genesis 8:13

13 And it came to pass in the six hundredth and first year, in the first month, the first day of the month, the waters were dried up from off the earth: and Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and, behold, the face of the ground was dry.

Obviously, from roughly one and a half months into the year, to the beginning of the next year, is close to a year, off by about 45 days.

Genesis 8:14

14 And in the second month, on the seven and twentieth day of the month, was the earth dried.

This adds close to a month and a half, making up for the earlier time, which was less by one and a half months.

Thus, we have a year, more or less exact. ;)


I'd ask you to explain how a day can be 1000 years.
Okay, I guess the key word in 7:24 is prevailed. After 150 days the water started to subside according to the account. Got it. You're right.
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
Druidus said:
Let's get back to the point. I claim that the biblical story of Noah's flood is utterly impossible, largely inconsistant with reality, and likely is the culmination of a series of exaggerations based upon a real flood. I have backed up this claim with logic. I would like to see this logic refuted, if you have the ability.
It's amazing that we seem enamored with holding God to physical laws. What about "super-natural" don't you understand? A miracle that can be explained is no longer a miracle. Just because YOU can't control nature does not mean that God is so limited.

On another note, there are some who substitue a contrived bombastic style as wit or as a semi-logical argument... in reality it's just rude and completely obscures the real issues. Being a cyber bully does not constitute being right. You don't make your case better by belittling others. State your point and leave the commentary about how "stoopid" you think the other side is to yourself.
 

Lindsey-Loo

Steel Magnolia
Hi, I'm new to this forum.

I believe the flood happened exactly as Genesis describes it. While I don't have any evidance, besides the Bible, which apparently isn't considered solid evidence, no one else has any evidence that the Flood never happened. While I trust that the Bible is true, otherwise it is impossible to prove whether the Flood happened or not.
 

almifkhar

Active Member
well science says it happened. the ancients from all over the globe said it happened. the people who have been mapping our dna claim that something happened long ago that wiped out lots and lots of people and their idea to this is that our dna should be more diverse than it is. there are still lots of cities and temples under water that are very ancient. so with this all said i think we can call it a fact that a deludge did happen in our past.
 

Druidus

Keeper of the Grove
's amazing that we seem enamored with holding God to physical laws. What about "super-natural" don't you understand? A miracle that can be explained is no longer a miracle. Just because YOU can't control nature does not mean that God is so limited.
Unlike some, I require proof to believe in something, and this proof must be beyond "Because the Bible says it happened". Sure, anyone can say that it happened, and hen questioned about the logic of the situation, say that "God is not constrained by physics". But then I could argue that yesterday, a monkey somehow reached my town, lifted my house, and moved me to the Bahamas. When questioned about the logic behind my argument, I'll say that the monkey was not constrained by physics. This makes my monkey argument as valid as your God argument.

On another note, there are some who substitue a contrived bombastic style as wit or as a semi-logical argument... in reality it's just rude and completely obscures the real issues. Being a cyber bully does not constitute being right. You don't make your case better by belittling others. State your point and leave the commentary about how "stoopid" you think the other side is to yourself.
Are you calling me a cyber bully? I have not meant to offend, in any way. If I have inadvertantly offended someone, please, point out the post in question, and I will rectify the matter as swiftly as I am able to.

no one else has any evidence that the Flood never happened
You don't need to prove a negative, only a positive.

well science says it happened
No, science does not.

the ancients from all over the globe said it happened
No, they did not.

the people who have been mapping our dna claim that something happened long ago that wiped out lots and lots of people and their idea to this is that our dna should be more diverse than it is.
This is true. It is called the Togo bottleneck, and was caused by a massive volcano eruption, causing the human population of Earth to dwindle to less than 1000. Not a flood, however. And besides this, it occured over 100,000 years in the past.

there are still lots of cities and temples under water that are very ancient
While there may be some, there are most certainly not "lots".
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
Druidus,

FIrst off... you have never been a cyber bully. But some comments by others are far more brusque then they need to be.

As for "proof"... there are SEVERAL accounts of this flood. That it is cross cultural, it appears that it DID happen. There is much confusion as to the extent, and even the origin, but there are at least three independent accounts of a huge flood.

The FIRST point was that it is impossible to cram the supernatural in with the merely extreme. Of course the flood was impossible... it was from God.
 
NetDoc said:
The FIRST point was that it is impossible to cram the supernatural in with the merely extreme. Of course the flood was impossible... it was from God.
But then, surely you must see why someone who does not have the a priori belief that the Bible is divinely inspired/historical regards such claims as less than convincing. They are merely holding the Bible to the same standards of evidence as you would hold Native American, Hindu, Norse or Greek mythology. "Of course it's impossible to turn someone to stone merely by looking at them...it was from Medusa." That may work for people who have already decided they are believers in Greek mythology, but for the rest of us it's just not very convincing.
 

Kotaro

Member
well I guess I believe in this great flood story. The Sumerians did have the oldest recordings of its happenings, and afterwords almost every other culture wrote about it, including the Jews. These people all seemed to think the event happened. So yeah I believe there was some kind of massive flood over most, if not all the earth. I'm not saying it's completely true though, it's just a belief :)
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
NetDoc said:
As for "proof"... there are SEVERAL accounts of this flood.
No, there is not. There are "SEVERAL" accounts of flood lore and only one reason to assert that they referred to the same event, that being to justify the biblical flood narrative. To claim these as proof is naivete or deceit.
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
Now Deut...

Why do you almost always have to ascribe negative motives to almost everyone who disagrees with you?

Deut said:
To claim these as proof is naivete or deceit.
This does nothing to promote discussion and is what I was referring to as being a "cyber bully". Disagreeing with you does not automatically make someone a cretin, bigot, idiot, fool, naive, deceitful, arrogant... and the list can go on. This is merely a way to flame people without being completely honest about it. I personally find it disgusting and refuse to be baited by it or to participate in it. EEWRED is not ignoring your posts due to being overwhelmed by your logic, but he does not feel that he needs to weather your bombastic style of debate. No one should!

So no, my belief and theories about the flood are not driven by my naivete or my deceitfulness, though I would readily admit to being guilty of both. My conclusions about this are no more erroneous than yours and possibly less so.

Floods were common and still are. However, world event floods are not and they seem to have been experienced by more than a couple of cultures. You may claim (and you have) that one culture stole the idea from another. Great concept, unless the world event flood actually happened. We don't claim that one paper copied another in their reporting of the WTC disaster. No, there were numerous independent reports with facts that were sometimes in agreement and sometimes at odds with the other. They were all witnesses to the event. So it would be with a world event flood.

The only "proof" that you have offered otherwise has been that you simply can not believe that it happened that way. Well, whoop-de-doodle-do! It seems impossible for you. I will ask God to seek your permission for all future miracles and to be sure to not exceed his authority when bending the rules of nature.
 

jimbob

The Celt
Actually, there is proof that the flood really did happen. According to dig sites in jeruslam and jericho and the plains of Iran during the beginning of the 20th century (from 1920 to 1950) archeologists discovered a the rsults of a major flood. They found a very advanced civilization that had copper tools and pottery. Then that city was destroyed by a massive amount of water, and on top of that city, a new civilization made it way. But the new civilization was very primitive, thus showing that the people who new the previous knowledge, had deceases, and people had to start over. Also, the salt plain on the plateau of Iran has been acknowledged to have come from a major saltwater flood. The plains are not connected to the ocean or to any of the surrounding salt lakes. It had to have been deposited by a large amount of water. So in conclusion, scientists have said that a flood very possibly happened over a almost all of asia (some say up to russia, and others say only to Mesopotamia) and a great deal of Africa. This is where the Bible collides with fact. The BIble says that it covered the whole world. Science says that much of europe, and the america's never got the flood. Its up to you to make the decision. I personally don't really care what happened, i'm just going with scientific evidence in this case. Sir Leonard Wooley (one of the dudes at the excavation) said that it probably happend about 5,500 B.C. or 4000 B.C. Anyway, thats all the info i got after looking it up. Hope this helps.

And deut, please don't criticize me, i'm just telling what i know.
 

jimbob

The Celt
Deut. 32.8 said:
When was the Biblical Flood?
As i wrote before in my post. Scientists believe that the major flood (could be the biblical flood) happened around 5500B.C. to 4000 B.C.
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
I don't think the Bible is as clear about the extent of the flood as some would have you believe. 15 cubits above what? I am not so sure we understand the ancient tongue well enough to say with complete authority. Some say that this was part of the "great melt" of the past ice age.

I do know that we have found human remains and evidences of camp fires in caves that are over a hundred foot deep off of the coast of Florida. I have no clue how long the rise of the oceans took, but I do believe that God was responsible for that as well.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
jimbob said:
Actually, there is proof that the flood really did happen. ... Sir Leonard Wooley (one of the dudes at the excavation) said that it probably happend about 5,500 B.C. or 4000 B.C. Anyway, thats all the info i got after looking it up. Hope this helps.
No, there is no proof of the flood, although there is ample proof of flood disasters throughout the world, including Mesopotamia. In this regard,, I thank you for the Woolley reference. Here is another one ...
The Royal Cemetery. This was filled with gold artifacts and valuable jewelry, including rare blue gems. This was dated at 3400 B.C.

Flood strata: Below the Royal Cemetery, Woolley discover vast quantities of silt -- evidence, he believed, of a great flood. He felt this was the flood from the days of Noah, albeit a local flood.
"The total destruction of the human race is of course not involved, nor is even the total destruction of the inhabitants of the delta - thus some at least of the antediluvian cities survive into historic times - but enough damage could be done to make a landmark in history and to define an epoch." - Woolley, The Sumerians, 1965, pg 32)
Sumerian king lists containing a total of 29 dynasties. The first 10 of these dynasties were reputedly prior to the flood and over a period of up to 456,000 years. Because some of these dynasties were prior to the flood, Woolley reasoned that the Sumerian civilization predated that disaster.

- see Early Mesopotamea
Note the dates, both in your quote and mine. It's good having dates - and rare. All too often those who applaud YHWH's biocide shy away from anything so concrete. There is, however, an interesting exception, that being a remarkably well written article from our friends at answeringenesis.org ...
The Exodus occurred therefore roughly 1,981 + 967 + 480 years ago (see Appendix 2) or 3,428 years ago or 1447 BC +/- 1 year. Why do I say +/- 1 year?

< --- snip --- >

Genesis 11:10 tells us that Shem was 100 years old, 2 years after the Flood had finished. When was Noah’s Flood? 1,981 years to AD 0 plus 967 years to the founding of Solomon’s Temple plus 480 years to the end of the Exodus plus 430 years to the promise to Abraham plus 75 years to Abraham’s birth plus 350 years to Shem’s 100th birthday plus 2 years to the Flood. The Biblical data places the Flood at 2304 BC +/- 11 years.

This date is, as expected, in conflict with secular archaeology which regards the Flood as either local or a myth and the Biblical chronologies as irrelevant or inaccurate.

The placing of a catastrophic global flood in the year 2304 BC means that all civilizations discovered by archaeology must fit into the last 4,285 years. The significance of this fact will be pursued in later articles.

- see The Date of Noah’s Flood [emphasis added]

The point is, Woolley's work documents a flood, not the flood. In fact, the latter can only be viewed as a repudiation of Woolley. Similarly, to take the Noah narrative as anything other than allegory demands the repudiation of science.
 

jimbob

The Celt
I didn't mean to imply the Biblical flood. I was talking of THE FLOOD as in the BIG ONE. I am sorry for not writing that to more understandable terms. Thank you for correcting me deut, you always are able to do that:D

Thanks for the dating. I was using dates that i had found, but i wasn't sure. I suppose there is some speculation as to when it occured, but i'll go with your facts, since i know you are a better researcher than i am.
 
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