The sick concept of Eternal hell suffering.

Greeting's,

Yes.... Perhaps this "Hell and Satan..... "Going To Hell" Biblical debate has been raging between the human race for seemingly forever........... And rightly so...... It's well worth every minute that is expended upon this subject regarding where eternity may be spent...........

May we seriously consider this issue then......... "Are The Devil And His Fires Real" ??? ........
And what assumption shall many of us make when considering this perhaps vitally important question then ??? ........ On that one special and "LAST" day that each of us will spend on this beautiful planet let us hope that we have made the "Right Decision" regarding our belief or non-belief in a special place called "Hell"...... "May God Grant Us The Wisdom To Make The Right Decision"..... "Choose Wisely"..... Peace be with you friends....... M/S 1

The whole concept is neolithic agrarian pagan nonsense.

Lovely bedtime stories for children. "Aesop's Fables" are good too. So is the "Desiderata".

People that take any of this stuff seriously, beyond their metaphoric morality should see a shrink.

Cheers

That one special and "LAST" day is Not the last day for the meek ones that will inherit the earth as Jesus promised when he referred to Psalm (37:11,29,38).
Rather that special day will be the thousand-year day of Jesus reign over earth.
Revelation 1:10.

2nd Tim (3:1-5,13) talks of the Last days of badness on earth before there is divine intervention on earth by Jesus taking action against the wicked as describes at Isaiah 11:4; Rev. 19:11,15.

So, besides a heavenly hope, Scriptures hold out an earthly hope for the humble meek. to live on earth. The wicked will be removed and the upright remain.- Proverbs 2:21,22.

Some will be saved alive through the great tribulation (Matthew 24:21; Rev. 7:14, 9,10.), and the just and unjust of Acts (24:15) will be resurrected to life right here on earth.

What was Jesus doing while in hell before God resurrected him? Acts 2:27,31; Ps 16:10

There are three words translated as hell or hell fire:
Hebrew sheol
Greek hades
and the third word Gehenna. Gehenna is often translated as hellfire. Gehenna was actually a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem where things were not kept alive burning but where things were destroyed. Turned to ashes or back to dust.

What was Adam's penalty for sin? Wasn't it returning to dust?
If death meant more than returning to dust wouldn't God have told Adam that?

Since Jesus believed that the dead sleep in death at John (11:11), where did Jesus get that idea that those buried in hell as he was buried in hell sleep in death's sleep?
Jesus would have been familiar with the Hebrew OT Scriptures and Jesus would have known what King Solomon, who was known for his wisdom, wrote at Ecclesiastes (9:5,10) that the dead know nothing. The dead are not conscious of anything.
The Psalmist also agree the dead sleep the sleep of death.
Such as: Psalm 6:5; 13:3; 115:17; 146:4.

Hell then is the common grave of mankind until resurrection morning when the Lord Jesus resurrects or awakens the sleeping dead to either permanent life in the heaves ruling with him (Rev 5:9,10; 20:6) or permanent life on earth once the wicked are removed and destroyed as symbolized by Gehenna.

The meek ones will eat and be satisfied......may your hearts live forever.- Psalm 22:26

God is guarding all those loving him, but the wicked he will destroy- Psalm 145:20.

MoonShadow1 said:

Greeting's,

Yes.... Perhaps this "Hell and Satan..... "Going To Hell" Biblical debate has been raging between the human race for seemingly forever........... And rightly so...... It's well worth every minute that is expended upon this subject regarding where eternity may be spent...........

May we seriously consider this issue then......... "Are The Devil And His Fires Real" ??? ........
And what assumption shall many of us make when considering this perhaps vitally important question then ??? ........ On that one special and "LAST" day that each of us will spend on this beautiful planet let us hope that we have made the "Right Decision" regarding our belief or non-belief in a special place called "Hell"...... "May God Grant Us The Wisdom To Make The Right Decision"..... "Choose Wisely"..... Peace be with you friends....... M/S 1

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Again this concept of " Salvation is our choice", is a christian concept, and in my view it is in gross error. Salvation is not a choice, its a creative destiny designed by God for all humans to inherit, no matter what they individually choose. And this was made possible by "Christ Choice to be obedient to his Father."

If your going to give honor and glory to a choice, don't give it to what you think you have done, but what Christ did.

Peace.

Salvation as choice was a concept before Christianity because Deuteronomy (32:5) lets us know the people corrupted themselves, not God.

Deuteronomy (30:19) shows two choices were presented before the people to choose for themselves.

Joshua (24:15) says to 'choose' for oneself.

The people in Leviticus (1:3) had their own voluntary will....

Also as in Genesis Adam was created with voluntary free will to choose.

We can always use the free choice card but you must remember God is still responsible. He has allowed Adam and Eves children to be born into sin. It would of been more humane to destroy Imperfect Adam and Eve and recreate mankind to allow millions to have annihilation. Adam and eve were the only creatures with true choice. Their choice was not being born into the lusts of what sin held.God could of made their children sinless. Neither did we the human race vote them to represent us. God at the end of the day is responsible. God has the glory and nothing is impossible to him.It is irresponsible and a unequivocal waste to destroy the majority of humanity for a very few. It is inhuman to allow them eternal suffering and sheer cruelty. What makes the death of Christ more wonderful and glorious as He died for all mankind. I love the prodigal son as the church has the reaction of the older brother. They cannot see their father having mercy for their adulterous brother. Yet he does. All I hear is bitterness . Just like he older brother. Yet the Father said they were once dead now they are alive. He says to the brother you will inherit all I have. This parable is very powerful as we can see those who have died in their sins and have been reborn have salvation. We the Saints will have everything yet those who come later will have nothing but their salvation. They will be the nations who give tribute at Gods holy temple. Scripture teaches by their fruits you will know them. The doctrines of annihilation and eternal suffering show no fruits of love . you cant even call it discipline. It is outright cruelty and abuse. Are you so hung up on the correction of your doctrine you are blind to its heart. Can you truly see a God of pure Love condoning such . Yes God was angry at times but never cruel. It is people who are wasteful and cruel not God. My God has a rehabilitation program for all mankind what does your God have????

URAVIP2ME said:

Salvation as choice was a concept before Christianity because Deuteronomy (32:5) lets us know the people corrupted themselves, not God.

Deuteronomy (30:19) shows two choices were presented before the people to choose for themselves.

Joshua (24:15) says to 'choose' for oneself.

The people in Leviticus (1:3) had their own voluntary will....

Also as in Genesis Adam was created with voluntary free will to choose.

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God used these choice scriptures in the old testement in order to show that he would constantly forgive a disobedient nation of Israel, which is a type of continual disobedient humanity. EVERYwhere God gave Israel a choice, they ALWAYS eventually turned away from him. And God knew they always would. This is an example of Gods constant forgiveness, NOT an example of free will choice being what God requires. This nation was chosen by God, BECAUSE of their disobedience, not their characther to choose to do the right things. And christians misunderstand this, because they like to glorify their choices.

Why would God base salvation on free will choices, when a humans way to him is not in them? Jeremiah 10:23;" I know, O Lord, that a mans way is not in himself; nor is it in a man who walks to direct his own paths." This is WHY we have unbelievers, because its not in them to believe. Only God can give belief to a human, no matter what they free will choose. In Romans 1:19;"Because that which is known about God is evident " Within them", for GOD " MADE IT EVIDENT TO THEM." This has nothing to do with human will or choice, it is God who controls human belief, not the choice of the Human.

In Romans 8:20, all of humanity was SUBJECTED to sin, NOT because of their willing choices, or human will, but because of Gods Will! 2Corinth. 5:14, " The Love of Christ " CONTROLS US!" In him, ALL humans Live, Move and have their being, there is no room for choice here. If God does not draw you to believe in him, you just willnot, John 6:44.

Gods will is in charge of human belief, not human choice.

Peace.

Yes, God forgave ancient Israel but up to a point. One main factor for forgiveness was the fact that Messiah would come through Abraham's seed Issac. That ancient arrangement came to an end with the destruction of Jerusalem with its records in the year 70 C.E. (A.D.)
See Matthew 23:38 regarding the end of that religious 'house of worship'.

Jesus taught us about the unforgivable sin of Matthew 12:32. (Hebrews 6:4-6)

Right, we can not direct our own step (Jer 10:23) because our hearts are treacherous (Jer (17:9) so we need biblical guidance and direction. Psalm (119:105) likens the Bible instructions as a light to our foot (flashlight) and a light (Headlights) to our road way.

Wasn't Adam and Eve given the choice whether to eat the forbidden fruit or not?
Since the choice was theirs, and not God's, this shows they had free will to decide.

Re: Romans 8:20:

Not willingly..... We were subjected because of the actions of our original parents.
It is not by our free will ( personal individual choice) willingly that this happened.
We inherited imperfection from A&E. Since A&E could only pass down to their children human imperfection that is why we are imperfect..
Even when a baby is born we know its leanings will be toward imperfection. Since A&E could only have imperfect children after they disobeyed, then death spread to all men, (Romans 5:12) so in that sense God subjected all imperfect human creation.

Romans (8:21) continues that the creation will be set free or be delivered.....
This hope would come through the 'seed' Jesus Christ that the time would come when God would be with 'men' (Rev. 21:3) or 'mankind', and as verse 4 says, God will even see that there will be no more death....
Doesn't 'no more death' mean no more sin? Death is the wages or price sin pays.
Romans (6:7) says the one that has died is freed or acquitted from sin. That does not mean innocent but just as a governor can pardon a person would show the charges no longer stick. Since we can not resurrect oneself or another then without the resurrection hope (Acts 24:15) through Jesus we would have no choice nor be set free.

The Greek Interlinear says of 2nd Cor (5:14) that for the love of the Christ is holding together us. The 'us' is not the whole world but those that already followers of Christ.
1st John (4:10,11) Here is love...that God sent his Son to be the propitiation (propitiatory sacrifice) for our sins... so we ought to love one another. We are under obligation to love one another.

John (6:44) just how does God draw us? Isn't it on the basis of the reaction to the hearing of the good news of God's kingdom (Daniel 7:13,14; 2:44) that kingdom good news Jesus said at Matthew (24:14) would be proclaimed in all the world before the end of all badness comes? Out of love (Jer 31:3) God draws us if we want to be drawn, or as Acts (17:27) says to seek God. Please see also Deut 4:29; Isaiah 55:6. Doesn't 'seek' show room for choice?

URAVIP2ME said:

Jesus taught us about the unforgivable sin of Matthew 12:32. (Hebrews 6:4-6)

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Now lets be honest here no one know exactly what the unforgivable sin is. Also we have to acknowledge whether Christs blood saved mankind from all sin or only part of sin. The unforgivable sin simply could be denying Christ. Yet nowhere does the bible say that Christ cannot save after Death. I believe Christ died for all Sin . Or it makes the word of God a lie.His blood is a payment yes even for the unforgivable Sin. Do you truly have problem's of allowing everyone salvation. mmmmmm

URAVIP2ME said:

Wasn't Adam and Eve given the choice whether to eat the forbidden fruit or not?
Since the choice was theirs, and not God's, this shows they had free will to decide.

?

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You see your understanding of the events in Eden are seriously in error, thus everything that occured after Eden, you will simply misunderstand, because of the error in the foundation of your knowledge.

Adam and Eve were Not given a Choice, they were set up to fail. They were manipulated into doing things by a being who was given free access to Eden by God, a being that the young couple had absolutely no chance of standing against, and God didnot help them.

Peace.

By God warning Adam beforehand that disobeying would bring death would be helping them.

Satan was not set up to fail either. Satan chose to disobey God. Not all perfect spirit creation followed Satan. Abel, although born imperfect, chose not to follow Satan.

Satan (John 8:44) told the first lie at Genesis (3:4). Humanly perfect Adam and/or Eve could have refused his offer. They were not forced to obey the serpent.
1st Timothy 2:14.

shadze said:

Now lets be honest here no one know exactly what the unforgivable sin is. Also we have to acknowledge whether Christs blood saved mankind from all sin or only part of sin. The unforgivable sin simply could be denying Christ. Yet nowhere does the bible say that Christ cannot save after Death. I believe Christ died for all Sin . Or it makes the word of God a lie.His blood is a payment yes even for the unforgivable Sin. Do you truly have problem's of allowing everyone salvation. mmmmmm

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According to Matthew 12:32 didn't Jesus know what the unforgivable sin is?
Weren't the religious leaders of Jesus day guilty of such blasphemy?
John 9:41.

Jesus died for all, but as Matthew (20:28 B) says Jesus gave his life as a ransom for 'many'. Although Jesus died for all, all do not want to follow his teachings. Doesn't Hebrews (10:26) show there is a limit that Jesus sacrifice covers?

2nd Peter (3:9) shows God's will is that all repent so as not to be destroyed, but do all repent?

Gods only warning to Adam was death. The wages of sin is death. The inforgivable sins payment is death. Christ died for all mankinds sin. His blood sacrifice was payment for death. aS SCRIPTURE TEACHES WHEN DEATH IS DESTROYED THIER IS ONLY LIFE. The kingdom goes back to God the Father. So it will be God the fathers kingdom. You might not be part of Christs kingdom but the Kingdom of god is a different story all together.

URAVIP2ME said:

By God warning Adam beforehand that disobeying would bring death would be helping them.

Satan was not set up to fail either. Satan chose to disobey God. Not all perfect spirit creation followed Satan. Abel, although born imperfect, chose not to follow Satan.

Satan (John 8:44) told the first lie at Genesis (3:4). Humanly perfect Adam and/or Eve could have refused his offer. They were not forced to obey the serpent.
1st Timothy 2:14.

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Your understanding of scripture is mired in stuck tradition. satan didnot choose to disobey God, he was created a liar from his beginning, and it was Jesus who taught this. God didnot help Adam. He didnot help Eve. God allowed satan, the young couples doom, to enter freely into the garden. God posted no angels to guard them. God gave them absolutely no prior knowledge of satan the demon. God did not enter the Garden himself while the demon was there, only until after satan raped the couples mind did God intervene. And what was Gods intervention, he cursed all three with curses. What kind of help was that?

But you don't understand what God did. Or why.

Peace.

shadze said:

Gods only warning to Adam was death. The wages of sin is death. The inforgivable sins payment is death. Christ died for all mankinds sin. His blood sacrifice was payment for death. aS SCRIPTURE TEACHES WHEN DEATH IS DESTROYED THIER IS ONLY LIFE. The kingdom goes back to God the Father. So it will be God the fathers kingdom. You might not be part of Christs kingdom but the Kingdom of god is a different story all together.

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Yes, when death is destroyed there is only life, but is it only death that is destroyed? Gehenna was a place where things were also destroyed.
So Gehenna, often translated as hell/hellfire, was a fitting symbol of everlasting destruction of those in death with no resurrection hope.

Since Jesus taught (Matt 12:32) that the unforgivable sin would Not be forgiven in this world, and Not be forgiven in the world to come, thus as Hebrews (10:26) says there is No more sacrifice for sins left. So the unforgivable sin's payment is destruction in everlasting death.

Even the apostle Paul was concerned how he would end up- 1st Cor (9:27)

There is death because of inherited imperfection from Adam, and then there is the 'second death' of Revelation. From Adamic sin, or sin inherited through Adam, the dead are freed or acquitted as Romans (6:7) says. Those of Revelation (20:6) the 'second death' has no power over them, not all.

The people of Noah's day perished because they were executed by God.
Isaiah (11:4) and Rev. (19:11,15) shows there will be a future divine execution ridding the earth of the wicked. Psalm (92:7) says the wicked are destroyed forever. No resurrection for them but the second death of no future hope.

2nd Peter (3:7 B) shows there will destruction of ungodly men even though, as verse 9 B says, God is Not willing any should perish... but repent.

The goat-like ones of Matthew (25:46) go into everlasting punishment which is according to 2nd Thessalonians (1:9) destruction.

So, Christ's ransom sacrifice was payment for all sin, but not all death.
1st John 1:7B. Not for those deserving of second death. That is why Matthew (20:28) says Jesus gave his life as a ransom for 'many' instead of all.

At the end of Jesus thousand-year reign over earth, as 1st Cor. 15:27,28 says, God will then be all things to everyone because Jesus has delivered up the kingdom as verse 24 says. Jesus will have ushered in lasting peace on earth and peace to men of goodwill.

mickiel said:

Your understanding of scripture is mired in stuck tradition. satan didnot choose to disobey God, he was created a liar from his beginning, and it was Jesus who taught this. God didnot help Adam. He didnot help Eve. God allowed satan, the young couples doom, to enter freely into the garden. God posted no angels to guard them. God gave them absolutely no prior knowledge of satan the demon. God did not enter the Garden himself while the demon was there, only until after satan raped the couples mind did God intervene. And what was Gods intervention, he cursed all three with curses. What kind of help was that?

But you don't understand what God did. Or why.

Peace.

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By saying the 'beginning' we are not talking about the day Satan was created in the heavens, but rather as 1st John (3:8) says the devil sinned from the beginning, or in other words, from the beginning of Satan's sinful course he continued sinning from that time onward non stop.
See also verses (2:7, 13; 3:11)

The reason Satan is called the father of the lie (John 8:44) is because he told the very first lie. Genesis (3:4).

James (1:13,14) says God cannot tempt with evil. Each one is drawn out by his own desire. That includes Satan. It became Satan's desire to influence Eve.

The same was true of Judas. Jesus knew from the beginning of Judas going bad that it would be him that would betray him. The day Jesus chose his apostles Judas was not yet inclined that way. John 6:64. So the day Satan was created in the spirit realm he was not yet inclined to disobey God.

Of course God posted no angels to keep A&E away from the tree. They were to appreciate God and appreciate the paradise of Eden out of their love for him.

If you had a big very beautiful house and you told your guests the house is yours to use except stay out of this one little closet, would your guests consider you a bad host or not fair? After all they have use of the whole rest of your beautiful home.

Hey Mikiel. I have a simple answer to all God problems...He is imaginary...Or an impersonal force.:sorry1:

Xiao_Shu said:

Hey Mikiel. I have a simple answer to all God problems...He is imaginary...Or an impersonal force.:sorry1:

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What's to be sorry for? Unless you're going to try to force me to agree with you, you're every bit as entitled to believe that God doesn't exist as I am to believe that He does.

NAS©"Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

Yet it does not say anything about the end of the ages. Christ is confirming that people will not be forgiven at the age of the first ressurection which is the time of Chrost millenuim reign. Because Aoin just means age or a period of time. So Christ is saying for the time he is alive to the time he returns this sin will not be forgiven. If he meant forever then he would of said it. And that statement doesnot say the unforgivable sin would never be forgiven. This what makes me laugh. They can put forever on one scripture and use age in the other. SO CHRIST NEVER SAID THE UNFORGIVABLE SIN WILL NOT EVER BE FORGIVEN





End of the day Mikel I didn't ask Adam and eve to represent the human race. Neither did I deserve to be born under a curse they created. The only people who had true freedom of choice was Adam and Eve. We are born into sin not by our choice. At the end of the day God is still responsible. It is much easier to destroy the creation ,cut of the sin by the root at the beginning . And create a pair of perfect human beings. After all they came from dust. Why would God allow this to fester only to choose a few. It really makes no sense and is a waste. Of humankind. The true message of the gospel is this. God made himself responsible for our sin. He knew as a creator mankind wasn't wholly to blame. That their children would be born into the curse of death. Sin had a payment and it was death. The wonderful and glorious message of the cross is Christ Jesus died for aLL creation. His blood was payment for all our sins. Nothing less than a payment for all mankind was Christs blood. that at the end of the age all will be saved. What a wonderful message is this for mankind. This shows us our Father in heaven is willing to change us and save us. Christian have been confused over this message. They think salvation is solely their but it isn't. We will be blood heirs to the king of kings. Others will be just saved. I do not grudge salvation to anyone who has spent a age in the cleansing fires. Who by the grace of God threw Christ will eventually have eternal life. When Christ releases them who are we to say otherwise. Brother search your heart , and open your eyes to the glorious message of the cross. And praise God for his mercy.

URAVIP2ME said:

According to Matthew 12:32 didn't Jesus know what the unforgivable sin is?
Weren't the religious leaders of Jesus day guilty of such blasphemy?
John 9:41.

Jesus died for all, but as Matthew (20:28 B) says Jesus gave his life as a ransom for 'many'. Although Jesus died for all, all do not want to follow his teachings. Doesn't Hebrews (10:26) show there is a limit that Jesus sacrifice covers?

2nd Peter (3:9) shows God's will is that all repent so as not to be destroyed, but do all repent?

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The unforgivible sin is to not believe that JESUS is GOD. Whosoever believes on the LORD JESUS CHRIST shall be saved.